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Differences between a PA speaker and a Powered Loud Speaker Studio Monitors
Old 1 week ago
  #1
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Differences between a PA speaker and a Powered Loud Speaker

Hi Everyone;

I use Guitar Rig 5 to model my audio and I want to stop using my Yamaha HS monitors as the output source.

I have been looking at two systems:
• Yamaha DBR 12”; or
• Yamaha Stagepas 12”.


I am not understanding the differences between a PA speaker and a Powered Loud Speaker - can someone explain? I am struggling to find supporting information online.

I play:
• Guitar (mainly metal);
• Bass;
• Synths via Reason 10;
• Digital Drums.
Old 1 week ago
  #2
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkfleet View Post
Hi Everyone;

I use Guitar Rig 5 to model my audio and I want to stop using my Yamaha HS monitors as the output source.

I have been looking at two systems:
• Yamaha DBR 12”; or
• Yamaha Stagepas 12”.


I am not understanding the differences between a PA speaker and a Powered Loud Speaker - can someone explain? I am struggling to find supporting information online.

I play:
• Guitar (mainly metal);
• Bass;
• Synths via Reason 10;
• Digital Drums.
They are the same thing except one has a power amp and a preamp built in. If you buy just a PA speaker you need a preamp (mixer) and a power amp to use it.
Old 1 week ago
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
They are the same thing except one has a power amp and a preamp built in. If you buy just a PA speaker you need a preamp (mixer) and a power amp to use it.
He's talking about powered PA speakers,the 2 examples he gave are both powered.
Old 1 week ago
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkfleet View Post
Hi Everyone;

I use Guitar Rig 5 to model my audio and I want to stop using my Yamaha HS monitors as the output source.

I have been looking at two systems:
• Yamaha DBR 12”; or
• Yamaha Stagepas 12”.


I am not understanding the differences between a PA speaker and a Powered Loud Speaker - can someone explain? I am struggling to find supporting information online.

I play:
• Guitar (mainly metal);
• Bass;
• Synths via Reason 10;
• Digital Drums.
Well, first off, I can't find a Stagepas with 12" speakers - the 400 has 8" and the 600 has 10", but anyway...

The Stagepas is a self-contained small portable PA system consisting of two speakers, one of which houses a removable mixer-amp, which powers both speakers.

The DBR 12 is a single powered PA speaker, which houses its own amplifier(s).

Note - both are PA speakers, and so both are designed to be full-range, flat-response (FRFR) - in this sense there is no real functional difference between them.

Neither of them will sound great with an electric guitar going through them unless you first put the guitar through an amp and speaker (ie a dedicated guitar speaker, which attenuates high frequencies in a way the FRFR boxes mentioned above do not) or a modeler or pedals with some kind of speaker simulation involved.

Your Guitar Rig 5 ought to do this for you, and so, yes, you could use either to monitor your sound. However, you may still have to be prepared to play around with EQ a bit to get the sound how you want it.

For the use you describe, I would suggest the DBR12, as the Stagepas probably has a bunch of stuff you won't need (including the mixer and an extra speaker). Unless, of course, you want to monitor in stereo.
Old 1 week ago
  #5
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Hi Everyone;



I appreciate the help so far.



I am grasping the differences between the StagePas and the DBR.



Problem case: I have been trying to get a grindy chuggy metal sound. Semi-recently my company had to go under and to survive I sold a lot of audio gear which resulted in me in buying back a lot of the components. At the moment I am playing through a setup like so: Guitar > (maybe pedals) > Steinberg Interface (Input) > Guitar Rig 5 > Steinberg (Output) > Yamaha HS Monitors. The Yamaha HS Monitors struggle to chug (no sub-woofer) with any volume.



Goal: To get to an intermediate step of getting a decent sound without limiting myself. I play Guitar (Punk/Metal/Grunge etc.), Bass, Digital Drums and Synths (through Reason DAW). I figured that using modelling will allow me to use one speaker system to power the instruments mentioned above until I can get to a financial space to buy the components back, i.e. not buying amps for Guitars, Bass and Digital drums and more until later.



Ideas:

1. Buy a StagePas system and model through Guitar Rig 5; or

2. Buy a DBR system and model as above; or

3. Buy a larger coned Yamaha HS monitor + sub-woofer.
Old 1 week ago
  #6
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

I would definitely go with the DBR over the Stagepas, but if you're going to try and pump bass through them at a comfortable metal stage volume, it probably won't work. Neither are designed for pumping out a lot of low bass. The speaker will smack the limit of its excursion without much level output. This is experience talking; we run everything DI, and the electronic drums sound bad with just the monitors (12") engaged - no low end. Turn on the mains, with the 18" subs, and the bass thump suddenly becomes audible. Our bassist also complains about the lack of low end in the monitors, until I turn on the mains.

I also did not see a Stagepas with a 12" woofer; 10" is as big as I saw.
Old 1 week ago
  #7
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Hi;

The usage won't include live performances or playing at that volume. I would need a lot more equipment.

The environment is a partly put together mixing room in the basement as a temporary means of playing daily.

I fully intend to upgrade everything as time goes on but tackling one problem at a time.

Does the above response change your reply? Should I add a dedicated sub-woofer to the mix? If I was to add a sub-woofer I would probably downgrade the DBR from a 12" to a 10" for more bright highs and mids.
Old 1 week ago
  #8
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I ended up purchasing the Yamaha DBR12. Looking forward to trying it out.
Old 1 week ago
  #9
I was going to tell you to buy a moderate sized guitar amp because no small to medium PA will really give you what you want on guitar.

And besides - punk rock through sims? Shame on you!
Old 1 week ago
  #10
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Ha ha ha. Well, I figured buying a loud speaker is probably the fastest way to get back on my feet. I will slowly replace components for quality and appropriateness reasons as the money comes in. Got to work to make the dollars first.
Old 1 week ago
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkfleet View Post
Ha ha ha. Well, I figured buying a loud speaker is probably the fastest way to get back on my feet. I will slowly replace components for quality and appropriateness reasons as the money comes in. Got to work to make the dollars first.
So definitely don't waste your money on a sub, then.
Old 1 week ago
  #12
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Absolutely. I realize the scenario is not ideal. I do not mind spending money on a loudspeaker like a Yamaha DBR12 because I know when the opportunity presents itself, I will simply replace and repurpose. The struggle I am finding is that I am trying to make calculated purchases to get me somewhat near the stack I used to own until I can afford to buy the old rig back. Guitar Rig 5 was a great way of accelerating the above goal as the rack is virtualized. Over time I do not doubt I will phase out Guitar Rig 5 because the tool will start to become the limiting factor. Right now the audio output is the most frustrating part of the rig at the moment. I am still fighting with the basics. Something new will become the new irritating thing, and that new irritant will be my next focus. I will keep just buying the basics month-to-month until core components will need replacing.
Old 1 week ago
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkfleet View Post
Absolutely. I realize the scenario is not ideal. I do not mind spending money on a loudspeaker like a Yamaha DBR12 because I know when the opportunity presents itself, I will simply replace and repurpose. The struggle I am finding is that I am trying to make calculated purchases to get me somewhat near the stack I used to own until I can afford to buy the old rig back. Guitar Rig 5 was a great way of accelerating the above goal as the rack is virtualized. Over time I do not doubt I will phase out Guitar Rig 5 because the tool will start to become the limiting factor. Right now the audio output is the most frustrating part of the rig at the moment. I am still fighting with the basics. Something new will become the new irritating thing, and that new irritant will be my next focus. I will keep just buying the basics month-to-month until core components will need replacing.
No, I was making a genuine point - you really don't need a sub for guitar.

You should be able to get sounds out of the gear you've got that are decent enough for the purpose you require, but as I mentioned, you will probably need to play around with your EQ a bit before you're happy with the sound coming out of a FRFR speaker.

Yes, plenty of people will tell you you should have spent your money on other gear, but you've made your choice, and there's no reason why you shouldn't end up happy with it, within the constraints you've described. Best of luck.
Old 1 week ago
  #14
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Sniff's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkfleet View Post
Absolutely. I realize the scenario is not ideal. I do not mind spending money on a loudspeaker like a Yamaha DBR12 because I know when the opportunity presents itself, I will simply replace and repurpose. The struggle I am finding is that I am trying to make calculated purchases to get me somewhat near the stack I used to own until I can afford to buy the old rig back. Guitar Rig 5 was a great way of accelerating the above goal as the rack is virtualized. Over time I do not doubt I will phase out Guitar Rig 5 because the tool will start to become the limiting factor. Right now the audio output is the most frustrating part of the rig at the moment. I am still fighting with the basics. Something new will become the new irritating thing, and that new irritant will be my next focus. I will keep just buying the basics month-to-month until core components will need replacing.
Check out a Headrush FRFR -112. Might be what you're looking for. Not used one but their other gear ain't too shabby.
Old 1 week ago
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleeden View Post
No, I was making a genuine point - you really don't need a sub for guitar.

You should be able to get sounds out of the gear you've got that are decent enough for the purpose you require, but as I mentioned, you will probably need to play around with your EQ a bit before you're happy with the sound coming out of a FRFR speaker.

Yes, plenty of people will tell you you should have spent your money on other gear, but you've made your choice, and there's no reason why you shouldn't end up happy with it, within the constraints you've described. Best of luck.
The Yamaha DBR12 came in the mail today about an hour ago. I have been fiddling with it and working on the sound. I will definitely need to play with the EQ. If anything the bass is a little unbearable now. I am excited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniff
Check out a Headrush FRFR -112. Might be what you're looking for. Not used one but their other gear ain't too shabby.
The Headrush FRFR-112 looks to be a pretty decent PA. I will keep an eye out.
Old 1 week ago
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkfleet View Post
The Yamaha DBR12 came in the mail today about an hour ago. I have been fiddling with it and working on the sound. I will definitely need to play with the EQ. If anything the bass is a little unbearable now. I am excited.



The Headrush FRFR-112 looks to be a pretty decent PA. I will keep an eye out.
If you're using Guitar Rig 5 make sure you're using an IR of some sort and not the older cabs based on filters.That's the only way chugs and palm mutes will feel decent.Control Room Pro uses Redwirz,and Reflektor can load 3rd party IRs.So don't use the regular Control Room,Matched cabs,or Cabinets and Mics.
Old 1 week ago
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slicklickz View Post
If you're using Guitar Rig 5 make sure you're using an IR of some sort and not the older cabs based on filters.That's the only way chugs and palm mutes will feel decent.Control Room Pro uses Redwirz,and Reflektor can load 3rd party IRs.So don't use the regular Conrol Room,Matched cabs,or Cabinets and Mics.
SUPER helpful comment. Appreciated you letting me know about this.
Old 1 week ago
  #18
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slicklickz View Post
He's talking about powered PA speakers,the 2 examples he gave are both powered.
why would he ask the difference if they are the same thing?
Old 1 week ago
  #19
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Sniff's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkfleet View Post

The Headrush FRFR-112 looks to be a pretty decent PA. I will keep an eye out.
Although it's not a PA, but a dedicated amp sim CAB. Designed for their Headrush amp sim pedalboards specifically for guitars. Have a look on google, cheaper than the other PA speakers you mentioned.

Also agree, the cab IR's do make a lot of difference.

So many options ....
Old 1 week ago
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir
why would he ask the difference if they are the same thing?
Ha ha – The answer might be more obvious than you think. Because I didn’t know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir
Although it's not a PA, but a dedicated amp sim CAB. Designed for their Headrush amp sim pedalboards specifically for guitars. Have a look on google, cheaper than the other PA speakers you mentioned.

Also, agree, the cab IR's do make a lot of difference.

So many options ....
Yeah, the Headrush sounds decent.
The IR advice just blew my mind. I am new to Guitar Rig as I was an analog man. To think the default cabs “matched cabs” is older software. Control Room Pro seems very interesting and adds a whole new depth that I didn’t think Guitar Rig even had.
Old 1 week ago
  #21
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KevWind's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkfleet View Post
Ha ha – The answer might be more obvious than you think. Because I didn’t know.
Yes the terminology can be somewhat confusing. So to clarify the two are completely different things.. "PA speaker" does not designate a specific "type" speaker per se.. It designates a type of usage for the speaker which is ( Public Address ), ,,, PA speaker is a usage category where the term Powered Speaker is a specific "type" of speaker itself .
A PA System System can utilize either (passive, unpowered speakers ) which requires an outboard pre and power amplification unit/s . OR it can use (active , powered speakers ) where the power amp is built into the speaker cabinet, and then the system only needs some kind of pre amp (often a mixer with mic pres built in)
Old 1 week ago
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleeden View Post
No, I was making a genuine point - you really don't need a sub for guitar.

You should be able to get sounds out of the gear you've got that are decent enough for the purpose you require, but as I mentioned, you will probably need to play around with your EQ a bit before you're happy with the sound coming out of a FRFR speaker.

Yes, plenty of people will tell you you should have spent your money on other gear, but you've made your choice, and there's no reason why you shouldn't end up happy with it, within the constraints you've described. Best of luck.
Well, if you tune down a lot and especially if you tune down on a 7 string guitar a sub might be helpful.
Old 1 week ago
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Well, if you tune down a lot and especially if you tune down on a 7 string guitar a sub might be helpful.
I was also planning to run a bass guitar through the loudspeaker. I might need a sub-woofer. I am still playing with the speaker at the moment.
Old 1 week ago
  #24
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Update: I have been able to pull out a nice sound for hardcore punk but still working on getting a grindy/chuggy metal sound.
Old 1 week ago
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkfleet View Post
Update: I have been able to pull out a nice sound for hardcore punk but still working on getting a grindy/chuggy metal sound.
I'd start with Screamer>Gratifier or Van 51>Gratifier cab in CRP with a 421>Psyched delay>Vintage Verb.Very light on the delay and verb,and a little room mic and Air in CRP.I'm not sure what version of Guitar Rig 5 you have but if you have the Solid EQ there are high pass and low pass filters at the bottom,start arount 100 and 8K.I don't like modern mode in Gratifier so I usually used Vintage mode.
Old 1 week ago
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slicklickz View Post
I'd start with Screamer>Gratifier or Van 51>Gratifier cab in CRP with a 421>Psyched delay>Vintage Verb.Very light on the delay and verb,and a little room mic and Air in CRP.I'm not sure what version of Guitar Rig 5 you have but if you have the Solid EQ there are high pass and low pass filters at the bottom,start arount 100 and 8K.I don't like modern mode in Gratifier so I usually used Vintage mode.
CRP has really up'd the game for me. I will try the above the moment I can. Really appreciate the recommendations.
Old 1 week ago
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slicklickz View Post
I'd start with Screamer>Gratifier or Van 51>Gratifier cab in CRP with a 421>Psyched delay>Vintage Verb.Very light on the delay and verb,and a little room mic and Air in CRP.I'm not sure what version of Guitar Rig 5 you have but if you have the Solid EQ there are high pass and low pass filters at the bottom,start arount 100 and 8K.I don't like modern mode in Gratifier so I usually used Vintage mode.

Alright, I tried the settings you suggested and with a few tweaking I am starting to see this really come together. I am beginning to feel it. Thanks. Appreciated. I will keep playing.
Old 1 week ago
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkfleet View Post
Alright, I tried the settings you suggested and with a few tweaking I am starting to see this really come together. I am beginning to feel it. Thanks. Appreciated. I will keep playing.
Those amps have controls that expand down that you might not notice like Variac,Silicon/tube rectifier pot,and bias controls so take a look.Click the + to show regular controls and the down arrow for expanded controls.Use the Screamer with the gain all the way down,the level all the way up,and tone at 2-3 O'clock.Make sure you give some Air and Room mic in CRP.
Old 1 week ago
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slicklickz View Post
Those amps have controls that expand down that you might not notice like Variac,Silicon/tube rectifier pot,and bias controls so take a look.Click the + to show regular controls and the down arrow for expanded controls.Use the Screamer with the gain all the way down,the level all the way up,and tone at 2-3 O'clock.Make sure you give some Air and Room mic in CRP.
Frig, I didn't know about the extra features. This is my first time playing with amp simulations. Thank you.
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