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Possible to Use Preamp to Replace Guitar Head? Sound Enhancers & Exciters (HW)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
There's an Engl preamp that has a 1.5W (I think it is) output that will drive an actual speaker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Engl
A stereo 1,5 watts power amp works with any cabinet or headphone for silent practicing.
Not just a preamp.

MAINLY a preamp, sure. But it has a power amp in it so actually it's a regular integrated amp, just a very low power one.

FWIW that device has the same power as my Vox Lil Night Train amp head. So I'd say their claim of "silent" practicing with a cab should be taken with a large grain of salt. Er, make it a whole shaker.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
There's an Engl preamp that has a 1.5W (I think it is) output that will drive an actual speaker.
I don't have a clue as to why Engl would call that a preamp when it clearly has a power amp in it, albeit just 1.5W.

Regarding Volts, Amps and killing levels, technically 0.10A across your heart will kill most people at ANY voltage. This is why the One-Hand Rule is so important.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

Regarding Volts, Amps and killing levels, technically 0.10A across your heart will kill most people at ANY voltage.
and 16 amps might save them
Old 4 weeks ago
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnbarnesiii View Post
Thank you guys for the clarifications!

There is a guitar head I was interested in that is sold out until mid year. The company wrote back saying I could buy the preamp in the meantime, which confused me bc as you guys confirmed, I didn’t think I could use that without a separate unit such as power amp. But the way they wrote the message caused me to imply that I could.

So I’ll either have to wait it out or by rare chance find the head used somewhere.

Thanks again for the info!
Which amp /pre? Just wondering.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniff View Post
Which amp /pre? Just wondering.
Its the Hilbish Beta:

Beta Amplifier | Hilbish Design
Old 4 weeks ago
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnbarnesiii View Post
Its the Hilbish Beta:

Beta Amplifier | Hilbish Design
Sweet!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnbarnesiii View Post
Its the Hilbish Beta:

Beta Amplifier | Hilbish Design
HMmmm.... 700 watts Class D. Nothing I'd want to run my guitar through. Class D amps generally suck for guiitar.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
HMmmm.... 700 watts Class D. Nothing I'd want to run my guitar through. Class D amps generally suck for guiitar.
OK.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #39
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OP: To trim the fat here and keep a direct addressing to you, you got your answer in post #4 . Now, with that, are you looking for the preamp/poweramp option? If so, Synergy offers a fantastic solution to this type of setup. Pricey, yes, but it's the silver bullet solution no doubt.

Old 4 weeks ago
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
HMmmm.... 700 watts Class D. Nothing I'd want to run my guitar through. Class D amps generally suck for guiitar.
I'm pretty sure it sounds fine. Alessandro Cortini from NIN uses one for his bass and guitar for the NIN live shows.

If it sucked i'm not sure Trent Reznor would be happy to use it in his Show!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethem View Post
I'm pretty sure it sounds fine. Alessandro Cortini from NIN uses one for his bass and guitar for the NIN live shows.

If it sucked i'm not sure Trent Reznor would be happy to use it in his Show!
I love NIN but I don't want to sound like them and the sounds that work for that kind of uber harsh, industrial music just won't work for most other styles.

It's kinda like entering a sports car rally with a bulldozer or maybe a Sherman tank.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I love NIN but I don't want to sound like them and the sounds that work for that kind of uber harsh, industrial music just won't work for most other styles.

It's kinda like entering a sports car rally with a bulldozer or maybe a Sherman tank.

Maybe the OP wants that sound? Hence the order.

It's odd, but other people have preferences too.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniff View Post
Maybe the OP wants that sound? Hence the order.

It's odd, but other people have preferences too.
What are you talking about? The question was can you use a preamp to power a speaker cabinet.

The answer is NO, you can't. Not a preamp.

Now, if you have a box with a preamp and a power amp in it you can, but that's not using the preamp to power the cabinet, it's using a power amp. Even if it's installed in the same box.

What this has to do with using Class D power amps for guitar, I have no idea. It's a totally different issue.

The OP is perfectly welcome to use any kind of power amp he wants. I was just pointing out that despite all the enticing hype (light weight, low cost, ridiculously inflated power specs) in most cases Class D amps don't sound that good for guitar to most people. Note that that is not the same thing as reproducing an already baked sound of a guitar amp rig, as in a power amp on a Kemper or a studio monitor, because in such circumstances the power amp is not being called on to do the same things as the power stage of a guitar amp.

For example, you probably don't want to drive a Class D amp into clipping as most people do with guitar amps.

Last edited by John Eppstein; 4 weeks ago at 12:46 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
What are you talking about?
I asked the OP which amp he had ordered.
You immediately trashed it as it's "not something you would run your guitar through", followed by " I don't want to sound like NIN".

Whether people have asked for them or not your preferences are well documented all over these forums.

I just stated that others have preferences.

And for the record I posted that a pre can be used via a Two Notes.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniff View Post
Maybe the OP wants that sound? Hence the order.

It's odd, but other people have preferences too.
AFAIK there is no signature "that sound' with Class D power amps any more than MP3s have a signature sound. It's just that some stuff is missing that many people don't notice and care about. There is nothing to prefer.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post

What this has to do with using Class D power amps for guitar, I have no idea. It's a totally different issue.

The OP is perfectly welcome to use any kind of power amp he wants. I was just pointing out that despite all the enticing hype (light weight, low cost, ridiculously inflated power specs) in most cases Class D amps don't sound that good for guitar to most people. Note that that is not the same thing as reproducing an already baked sound of a guitar amp rig, as in a power amp on a Kemper or a studio monitor, because in such circumstances the power amp is not being called on to do the same things as the power stage of a guitar amp.

For example, you probably don't want to drive a Class D amp into clipping as most people do with guitar amps.
This post is exactly true and every nuance should be understood by guitar players.

In year seven of this cover band I've gigged 11R, tube amps miked, Kemper, Class D to guitar cab, tube amp load box direct. I love variety, I love changing it up. There was a Class D that sounded really good, I won't mention the brand because I don't want to be negative about a very good product. I could gig that Class D again, but for now playing live for me has to be tube or Kemper.

I've said this before, the great thing about Kemper live is standing out front there is absolutely no discernible difference between a miked tube amp (being run through a PA amp before it hits the mains) and a Kemper run through the same PA. Kemper or miked tube amp are the same thing out front and the primary reason I don't buy a 2nd Kemper and gig it is because I'm completely selfish and in life I want to hear a tube amp. The only place it's convenient for me to hear a tube amp is on a stage. In my home studio I play a Kemper through near fields for recording, not a tube amp.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #47
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You could always get a small poweramp to plug the preamp into. They are about the size of a guitar pedal these days. Lots of people are doing a setup like this.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
AFAIK there is no signature "that sound' with Class D power amps any more than MP3s have a signature sound. It's just that some stuff is missing that many people don't notice and care about. There is nothing to prefer.
Well done

Last edited by Sniff; 4 weeks ago at 04:53 PM.. Reason: can't be arsed..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicTone View Post
This post is exactly true and every nuance should be understood by guitar players.

In year seven of this cover band I've gigged 11R, tube amps miked, Kemper, Class D to guitar cab, tube amp load box direct. I love variety, I love changing it up. There was a Class D that sounded really good, I won't mention the brand because I don't want to be negative about a very good product. I could gig that Class D again, but for now playing live for me has to be tube or Kemper.

I've said this before, the great thing about Kemper live is standing out front there is absolutely no discernible difference between a miked tube amp (being run through a PA amp before it hits the mains) and a Kemper run through the same PA. Kemper or miked tube amp are the same thing out front and the primary reason I don't buy a 2nd Kemper and gig it is because I'm completely selfish and in life I want to hear a tube amp. The only place it's convenient for me to hear a tube amp is on a stage. In my home studio I play a Kemper through near fields for recording, not a tube amp.
Lol, Thanks for talking all about you.

Guess what .. I got a kemper too, not sure that helps the OP tho...

Carry on ....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniff View Post
Lol, Thanks for talking all about you.

Guess what .. I got a kemper too, not sure that helps the OP tho...

Carry on ....
Lol, negative much?

You are on ignore.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
AFAIK there is no signature "that sound' with Class D power amps any more than MP3s have a signature sound. It's just that some stuff is missing that many people don't notice and care about. There is nothing to prefer.
It depends on the Class D. A majority of Class D amplifiers sold to the musician market have characteristic problems which may or may not be obvious at first, depending on the astuteness of the person evaluating the amp.

I've spoken about these issues many times in the past and frankly I don't feel like going into a rather technical explanation that most people here who already have their minds made up won't bother to read.

Maybe later.*

There are a few Class D amps made for the high end studio and mastering markets that don't have those issues, but, as I've said many times you won't find those Class D power amps in any musical instrument amps I've ever heard of, for the very good reason that they negate the very reasons that musical amp companies use Class D, specifically they aren't cheap, they aren't tiny, and they aren't super light weight. They're amps designed for built-in installations ort large touring systems.

The other reason that Class D amps are not suitable for most guitar amp applications is that conventional amps, especially but not entirely limited to tube amps, have certain attributes that are usually regarded as flaws in the hi-fi, studio, sound reinforcement world that are considered to be highly desirable traits by the vast majority of guitar players.



* - much of this is related to the oft asked question "Why is my brand new 1000 watt bass amp only half as loud as my old 300 watt tube amp? And why doesn't it sound very good?" and similar questions.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
AFAIK there is no signature "that sound' with Class D power amps any more than MP3s have a signature sound. It's just that some stuff is missing that many people don't notice and care about. There is nothing to prefer.
Honestly a 320kps MP3 sounds very similar to a CD in a blind test done with musicians... (while the 96 or 128kps quality one sounds terrible that's obvious)

And many people can't hear any difference between 96khz/24bit music vs CD quality (44/16) music.
(Very subtle, but not so dramatic that change the "taste" of the music)

So... that's life.

The real problem is many master engineers squeeze the loudness to hell, limting the track to nonsense, and sometimes with clipping and audible distortion... a master done like that will sound like sh°° also with vinyl.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
AFAIK there is no signature "that sound' with Class D power amps any more than MP3s have a signature sound.
BTW, MP3s do, in fact, have a "signature sound".

However they've become so pervasive that most people don't notice - and MP3s have improved considerably over the past several years. But they do still sound like MP3s.

When you've spent a considerable period working on a song and then paid over $100.00 for top quality mastering with several revisions to get it just right, and then youi make an MP3 to send out in email promos (because email won't accept an attachment the size of the finished WAV file) you definitely DO hear a difference.

The unfortunate truth is, however, that the average person no longer notices degraded sound quality. And the quality of production in a lot of "modern" music also works to disguise the damage.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #54
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MP3s are simply lossy algorithms to facilitate extreme file compression. They don't add any characteristic at all let alone a signature. They are just missing data and have no more signature to them than lossy graphic compression does. Yes there are different qualities of MP3s but that is precisely because less is missing due to higher sampling rates. It's still adds nothing. Either that or show me some evidence I don't understand digital compression...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
MP3s are simply lossy algorithms to facilitate extreme file compression. They don't add any characteristic at all let alone a signature. They are just missing data and have no more signature to them than lossy graphic compression does. Yes there are different qualities of MP3s but that is precisely because less is missing due to higher sampling rates. It's still adds nothing. Either that or show me some evidence I don't understand digital compression...
The absence of something can be a signature just as the addition of something can be a signature.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #56
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Old 4 weeks ago
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Yes what? There is no preamp that can drive a speaker at any level above even that of unamplified strummed strings and in most cases it is stressful on the preamp because of huge impedance mismatch.called "low loading".

Please, if you're going to make a recommendation be specific with what you mean or think you mean.
That is the problem with internet forums: you read something in a post and take it as gospel, then spread it around as wildfire.

I was talking about plugging a pedal directly into a cab. I just tried plugging the headphone jack of my Micro Terror directly into a cab and it was considerably louder than the electric guitar unamplified.

Would not work in concert except maybe with acoustic guitars that have a weak sound in a small coffee house room. Maybe.

But if should be fine for practicing at home, at night especially.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guiatr_fiend View Post
That is the problem with internet forums: you read something in a post and take it as gospel, then spread it around as wildfire.

I was talking about plugging a pedal directly into a cab. I just tried plugging the headphone jack of my Micro Terror directly into a cab and it was considerably louder than the electric guitar unamplified.

Would not work in concert except maybe with acoustic guitars that have a weak sound in a small coffee house room. Maybe.

But if should be fine for practicing at home, at night especially.
A Headphone Out is NOT a preamp. It is a low power Power Amp. Some such power amps are a bit more like preamps as they are designed to operate into a much wider range of load impedance. Guitar speakers most often vary from 4 ohms to 16 ohms while headphones are in two distinct camps of ranges from 8 ohms to 32 ohms (Low) to 100 ohms to 600 ohms (High).

It is important to notice that what passes for High and Low for transducers designed to output SPL (motors) is very different from that for Input of low SPL (microphones/generators). A 100-600 ohm mic is considered Low Z while a 100-600 ohm speaker is considered Hi Z exactly because of the power differences.

Any amplifier capable of driving an 8 ohm load to appreciable SPL must deliver both voltage and current, which is why Ohms Law for power is like this, directly proportional

Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/dccircuits/dcp_2.html

To find the Power (P)

[ P = V x I ] P (watts) = V (volts) x I (amps)

Also:

[ P = V2 ÷ R ] P (watts) = V2 (volts) ÷ R (Ω)

Also:

[ P = I2 x R ] P (watts) = I2 (amps) x R (Ω)
Preamplifiers amplify voltage. Power amplifiers amplify current. By definition a preamplifier cannot deliver sufficient power to do useful work via an electromagnetic transducer of any kind. If one can, then by definition it is a power amp, not a preamp.

An example of high sensitivity, low power requirement transducer would be to use a microphone as a speaker. This is quite similar to some headphone transducers in the 100-600 ohm range. The mechanics of such transducers creates it's limitations. It should be obvious that any appreciable power will burn out a microphone so the SPL it can produce is severely limited by what power levels they can handle. It's still Power, it's just in milliwatts.

Preramp and Power Amp are specific terms and they are not interchangeable.just because they share some characteristics. They operate in different ranges and saying "preamp" when you mean "power amp" is like saying "bicycle" when you mean "bulldozer".
Old 4 weeks ago
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
A Headphone Out is NOT a preamp. It is a low power Power Amp. Some such power amps are a bit more like preamps as they are designed to operate into a much wider range of load impedance. Guitar speakers most often vary from 4 ohms to 16 ohms while headphones are in two distinct camps of ranges from 8 ohms to 32 ohms (Low) to 100 ohms to 600 ohms (High).
I don't disagree with you, but a preamp may be equipped with a headphone output, as are some processors, and it will work despite the impedance mismatch.

However, looks like we'll never know why the o.p. wanted this bit of information and what his purpose is (concerts, recording or practice).
Old 4 weeks ago
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by guiatr_fiend View Post
That is the problem with internet forums: you read something in a post and take it as gospel, then spread it around as wildfire.

I was talking about plugging a pedal directly into a cab. I just tried plugging the headphone jack of my Micro Terror directly into a cab and it was considerably louder than the electric guitar unamplified.

Would not work in concert except maybe with acoustic guitars that have a weak sound in a small coffee house room. Maybe.

But if should be fine for practicing at home, at night especially.
Your headphone jack is not a preamp out, it's a small power amp.

Actually, it's probably not even that - I don't have the schematic in front of me, but 9 times out of 10 the headphone out on such amps is a resistive tap off of the main power amp output.
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