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Kemper Profiler Rack vs Fractal Audio Axe FX III Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 22nd August 2018
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicTone View Post
The first 22 seconds he evidently uses an intended phase effect.

23 seconds on and the video is disappointing in terms of thin dynamics which is probably the fault of YouTube. I can't ascertain phasing problems past 23 seconds due to the fact of YouTube bandwidth.
Thin dynamics due to Youtube? My Engl retrotube kicks like a mule no matter if it's been put through Youtube or Soundcloud etc. E.g. of Ola playing one.

I can clearly hear issues in the Kemper video (obviously past the intro), so we're at an impass here .!

Here's the tab for the video below 0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.... :D


Last edited by ShadowAMD; 22nd August 2018 at 02:50 PM..
Old 22nd August 2018
  #32
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RicTone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowAMD View Post
Thin dynamics due to Youtube? My Engl retrotube kicks like a mule no matter if it's been put through Youtube or Soundcloud etc. E.g. of Ola playing one.

I can clearly hear issues in the Kemper video (obviously past the intro), so we're at an impass here .!

Here's the tab for the video below 0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.... :D

I listened through my D1 input, both near field monitors and headphones and that particular song has very little rich dynamics on my end, which I attribute to YouTube.
Old 22nd August 2018
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowAMD View Post
Well it sounds absoutley fine through a Helix, DI, or through any of my amps when mic'd up.. Using the same guitar and the same DAW.

If I solo one of the Kemper recordings it does sound somewhat phasey and aliased, pushing the dry tracks to the front of a mix makes it sound ten times worse..

I have zero issues with any other solution so the only logical conclusion is it's the Kemper.

It would be interesting to see if you can actually hear it though.. This guy has more experience with guitars and amps than most. What do you think?

This sounds like he re-amped each side through slightly different settings but without enabling the fixed latency option (which is specifically designed to solve phasing issues that occurred because of the dynamic latency when recording). Not a huge fan of the production or profiles used here, but anyhow that's a different matter (each to their own).
Old 22nd August 2018
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
This sounds like he re-amped each side through slightly different settings but without enabling the fixed latency option (which is specifically designed to solve phasing issues that occurred because of the dynamic latency when recording). Not a huge fan of the production or profiles used here, but anyhow that's a different matter (each to their own).
That's interesting regarding a fixed latency option.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowAMD View Post

I can clearly hear issues in the Kemper video (obviously past the intro), so we're at an impass here .!
As I wrote a few posts back the song sounds thin (like a mistake) which I incorrectly thought was poor audio from YouTube. Do you know this guitarist? Perhaps pass along mdme_sadie's advice (if it was re-amped) to re-amp again with the aforementioned fixed latency option.
Old 22nd August 2018
  #35
Sorry, I meant to say "Constant Latency", it's on page 4 of the system settings.
Old 22nd August 2018
  #36
Gear Maniac
 

+1 for Kemper. Have it. Love it.
Old 24th August 2018
  #37
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CrankyRayHanky's Avatar
 

I'll question this Kemper hate.. It's an amazing piece of gear that duplicates a rig chain so close it will fool the best of ears. There's plenty of A/B tests out there including ones I have done in controlled environments. Got a bad sound and it's due to having the wrong profile or something wrong in the setup.It rules in the studio and di to the stage speakers.

I don't think it's ready to hit an iceberg ion the market next year, it's been out for a long time, now.
Old 24th August 2018
  #38
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Gringo Starr's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyRayHanky View Post
I'll question this Kemper hate.. It's an amazing piece of gear that duplicates a rig chain so close it will fool the best of ears. There's plenty of A/B tests out there including ones I have done in controlled environments. Got a bad sound and it's due to having the wrong profile or something wrong in the setup.It rules in the studio and di to the stage speakers.

I don't think it's ready to hit an iceberg ion the market next year, it's been out for a long time, now.
Kemper fans always insist that if you don’t like the sound of it then you must be doing something wrong. Why because it’s so f**king phenomenal? Please...

I think it’s great that you’re enjoying it. Some people like no salt on their mashed potatoes. Different strokes for different folks. But just because you think it sounds good doesn’t mean that other people can’t think it sounds like total sh*t which is my opinion and many other people’s opinions. There’s nothing to question really.

Seriously though I’m glad you enjoy it. If it inspires you then use it. Plain and simple.

Last edited by Gringo Starr; 24th August 2018 at 04:45 AM..
Old 24th August 2018
  #39
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Interesting. What to believe.

Quote:
About Gringo Starr

Occupation
Traumen

Biography
Music was the first high I discovered. It's never let me down.

Career highlights
One night I played in front of 50,000 screaming fans before I woke up.

Other interests
Taking pictures

Key gear used
Waldorf Blofeld


Influences
The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, Zep, The Damned, Pink Floyd, Temptations, The Impressions, Smokey Robinson, Zero7(When it Falls), Sloan, Suede...

Instruments
Anything I can get my hands on. Guitarist mainly though.
Old 24th August 2018
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onewire View Post
Interesting. What to believe.
Probably the strangest comment I’ve ever seen on GS. Bordering creepy.
Old 24th August 2018
  #41
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CrankyRayHanky's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gringo Starr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyRayHanky View Post
I'll question this Kemper hate.. It's an amazing piece of gear that duplicates a rig chain so close it will fool the best of ears. There's plenty of A/B tests out there including ones I have done in controlled environments. Got a bad sound and it's due to having the wrong profile or something wrong in the setup.It rules in the studio and di to the stage speakers.

I don't think it's ready to hit an iceberg ion the market next year, it's been out for a long time, now.
Kemper fans always insist that if you don’t like the sound of it then you must be doing something wrong. Why because it’s so f**king phenomenal? Please...

I think it’s great that you’re enjoying it. Some people like no salt on their mashed potatoes. Different strokes for different folks. But just because you think it sounds good doesn’t mean that other people can’t think it sounds like total sh*t which is my opinion and many other people’s opinions. There’s nothing to question really.

Seriously though I’m glad you enjoy it. If it inspires you then use it. Plain and simple.
It is phenomenal! Lol
I usually like Ola’s tones, but his profile I do not like. If all I tried was that & similar, I’d hate the Kemper too

Curious, what do you think of this tone; higher gain is at 1:03
Granite Disease 8 - 5-18 by crankyrayhanky | Free Listening on SoundCloud
Old 24th August 2018
  #42
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Gringo Starr's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyRayHanky View Post
It is phenomenal! Lol
I usually like Ola’s tones, but his profile I do not like. If all I tried was that & similar, I’d hate the Kemper too

Curious, what do you think of this tone; higher gain is at 1:03
Granite Disease 8 - 5-18 by crankyrayhanky | Free Listening on SoundCloud
I’m not at home right now so I just listened on my iPhone. I know it doesn’t even come close to being accurate but it sounds good in the context of this song. All you need now is a vocalist whaling over this riff!

For me it just didn’t work out. Trust me I tried and tried and tried. I live in an apartment and I very much needed a solution like this. I guess for my music it wasn’t the right tool.
Old 24th August 2018
  #43
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CrankyRayHanky's Avatar
 

Cool thanks for the listen

fwiw I had a Kemper when it came out. After a year or so, flipped due to some issues I had with it

Just got another last Spring & really loving it. Combination of software updates & my improved understanding of how to make it work
Also have Mics & a TNL. I love it all but mainly on the Kemper lately

Good luck on your tone quest!
Old 24th August 2018
  #44
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It seems a repeating theme, Sonic Drive Studio's also did a test of pretty much everything digital and the only one that sounded relatively poor is the Kemper.. I don't wanna sound mean CrankyRay but you could do better with Lepou over that Kemper example.. I'm not saying you don't have skill, it's just the sound of that guitar is bleh.!

Is Ola's profile the best I've heard from a Kemper? No, not really.. Have I ever heard ONE decent example from a Kemper compared to a properly mic'd up tube amp from an experience engineer? No, I haven't.

If you love your Kemper, sweet I am happy for you.. But if for whatever reason you're trying to convince me? Well it's going to take a good sounding rhthym section as high fidelity as you could get from a tube amp..

Love to hear some examples.. I mean I'm happy to change my mind..

Old 24th August 2018
  #45
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CrankyRayHanky's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowAMD View Post
It seems a repeating theme, Sonic Drive Studio's also did a test of pretty much everything digital and the only one that sounded relatively poor is the Kemper.. I don't wanna sound mean CrankyRay but you could do better with Lepou over that Kemper example.. I'm not saying you don't have skill, it's just the sound of that guitar is bleh.!

Is Ola's profile the best I've heard from a Kemper? No, not really.. Have I ever heard ONE decent example from a Kemper compared to a properly mic'd up tube amp from an experience engineer? No, I haven't.

If you love your Kemper, sweet I am happy for you.. But if for whatever reason you're trying to convince me? Well it's going to take a good sounding rhthym section as high fidelity as you could get from a tube amp..

Love to hear some examples.. I mean I'm happy to change my mind..

I'm not trying to change your mind, I was actually replying to the other poster
It is interesting that you describe the tone I posted as bleh! No offense taken , I like the honest feedback. I'm really digging on that tone right now, but who knows next year I may look back and hate it.

As for the comparison clip, Kemper really works best with its own "cab". Using a common IR sounds good on paper to compare, but that is not how Kemper should run IMO...especially if is not a di profile. Was it a di or studio? If it was a studio profile than that completely trashes the comparison. Taking the cab off of a studio profile and jamming it into an IR is not the way to go.
Old 24th August 2018
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyRayHanky View Post
As for the comparison clip, Kemper really works best with its own "cab". Using a common IR sounds good on paper to compare, but that is not how Kemper should run IMO...especially if is not a di profile. Was it a di or studio? If it was a studio profile than that completely trashes the comparison. Taking the cab off of a studio profile and jamming it into an IR is not the way to go.
I don't benefit from negative criticism, so I'm glad you took it that way..

Here's the thing I've tried it every which way from Sunday, you can plug an amp into an IR via a reactive load and it will sound awesome.

Many say the cab IS the weak point of amp simulations and if using the best IR's doesn't bring tangible results when it works on everything else I gotta question things.

Although that being said, it's one of many examples where most of them do NOT use anything but what the Kemper delivers.

It's like the Bricasti debate, some people think it's the best thing since sliced bread and others prefer their plugins. Again I'd love to hear some recordings where the Kemper really did sound like a proper amp but I've yet to hear it.

At this point I'm going round in circles, so I'll just leave it at agree to disagree.
Old 24th August 2018
  #47
The cab is the weak point of most simulations, but that’s not the case with the Kemper where it’s cab is one of its strong points and isn’t IR based.

I’m not sure why the myth persists that there even are premium or high quality IR’s or that they would make the blindest bit of difference. Outside of Nebula IRs are just applied with basic convolution, only the frequency content matters, you’re not getting something more “real” when you pay more, maybe just some other engineers choice on frequency response (I.e. eq) that you like, it’s why convolution reverb always sounds weird and too pristine, there’s no harmonic or frequency smearing effect, no natural distortion. You may as well slap on a basic match EQ in a short verb. That’s why so many sims add additional non-linear components to juice up their IR based cab sims., speaker distortion and nonsense like that. The expense of an IR does not result in a better quality result.

Now having said that I think it’s absolutely fair to use the same IR for all the options if you want to level the playing field and just compare the preamp sims across the board under normal circumstances. The issue though is that every sim is based off of a different Mesa. Do you know if that Kemper profile sounded good to begin with? Because crap in = crap out. Do you know if it was a studio profile (designed for use only with the cab that was profiled at the time) or a merged profile (profiled directly from the preamp in isolation and designed to allow swapping of cabs or using external cabs). Do you know how the Mesa sounded when profiled?

The point being that as much as you criticize how you’ve never heard something you’ve liked from the Kemper it’s fundamental strength is it’s fundamental weakness in this context, it sounds like what you give it. There are hundreds of Mesa Mk 4 profiles out there, each is different sounding. Until you find an example where the guy starts out with an amp tone with his real amp that you love, then proceeds to profile that specific tone and show that and if necessary compare it to the rest of the sims out there then you’re just always going to find fault. Even then, because you seem predisposed you will likely find fault, and that’s fair, the Kemper isn’t perfect, it may not be for you, it is however much much better than you claim.
Old 24th August 2018
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
Even then, because you seem predisposed you will likely find fault, and that’s fair, the Kemper isn’t perfect, it may not be for you, it is however much much better than you claim.
Again, after owning two of them / using bought studio profiles / profiling my own amps / listening to others I do have a set view on it.

Although why is it "much better than I claim"? If you have it working to the level others can't seem to then share. Without some backup it's nothing more than opinion.

Agree with IR's though, as I said very clean / in your face / a little "fake" sounding.
Old 24th August 2018
  #49
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CrankyRayHanky's Avatar
 

I'm guessing if you didn't like my Kemper clip you wouldn't have liked my clip done with traditional mic...I propose that it's not the Kemper that you are finding fault with, it's my selection of rig chain and ear for tone (or a predisposed notion to win an internet battle and root for for your team, lol)

The best way to judge Kemper is not by doing an IR experiment compared to Fractal/Helix etc. Listening to clips online comparing IRs has way too many variables that interfere with a proper analysis. The best way to anaylze is by comparing it to the actual mic chain.
  • Take your amp into another room and mic it up. Go back to your control room.
  • Capture the profile (note that this process includes an element of pushing air which I think is a huge reason it sounds/feels better than other digital amps)
  • Now you can truly A/B the mic tone vs the Kemper profile

I think one needs to go through this process to hear just how phenomenal Kemper is, no joke.

There's lot of these comparisons online, including this one I did a few years ago:


Is everybody going to like this tone? No. But I do, and even more importantly, the difference between my mic sound and Kemper profile is 99% indistinguishable...and if you think you can conclusively distinguish (spoiler alert: you can't), it's clearly close enough to deliver what is needed for a recording session. That rig mic chain is now forever saved! That is AWESOME.

Also note that the latest software is a step up. The recent profiles are superior to the ones from a few years ago.

All that being said, I am sure the AX8 is a great piece. I had an fx8 and loved it. My only fault with it was the lack of flexibility in spillover, which can also cause weird fx....if you own one you know what I mean ziiiiipppppp
I haven't heard a high gain tone I loved from ax8 or Helix, but I'm sure it's out there. It's a great time to be an axe slinger
Old 24th August 2018
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowAMD View Post
Again, after owning two of them / using bought studio profiles / profiling my own amps / listening to others I do have a set view on it.

Although why is it "much better than I claim"? If you have it working to the level others can't seem to then share. Without some backup it's nothing more than opinion.

Agree with IR's though, as I said very clean / in your face / a little "fake" sounding.
I guess it comes down to the way you're coming across which is a little strong on this stuff e.g.

Quote:
Have I ever heard ONE decent example from a Kemper compared to a properly mic'd up tube amp from an experience engineer? No, I haven't.


Qualifiers, clauses, there's no-way to really counter argue that because it has to be from whomever you consider an "experience (sic) engineer" and also what you consider a "decent example", and finally it has to just satisfy your opinion and ears.

Now I'm not what I'd consider an experienced engineer, so there's no way I can convince you. But for me the Kemper works, sounds and feels great and like a... no, correction, like my real tube amps and sounds more than decent both compared to the real amps and especially compared to other amp sims. Based on everything I've read and seen online I'd say where I come from is the vast majority of peoples experiences too, mostly far more talented and experienced users than myself from major recording artists, session musicians, engineers and producers through to hobby tone junkies and so on seem to feel the same way as I do and most people seem to feel the opposite of the way you do. I know that's unfair tyranny of the masses stuff, but I also know many of their 'ears' through their work. I don't like all of it that's for sure, but there's enough that I do to leave me feeling vindicated by that for what I'm looking for in tone and feel should I ever stop basing it on my own experience; which I have no intention of doing.

I don't know exactly what it is you're missing or looking for in a tone. I suspect there's no way for you to explain either in non-diffuse terms either and that fairly or unfairly puts the onus on yourself to prove/disprove or find examples. But I still assert that the Kemper is far better and closer to the real amp than the pretty dysfunctional picture that you seem to be keen on painting IMO.
Old 24th August 2018
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyRayHanky View Post
I'm guessing if you didn't like my Kemper clip you wouldn't have liked my clip done with traditional mic...I propose that it's not the Kemper that you are finding fault with, it's my selection of rig chain and ear for tone (or a predisposed notion to win an internet battle and root for for your team, lol)
Maybe so, but I'll put my money where my mouth is.. I listened to the first section quickly so my ears didn't adjust to the difference.

I'll say A is the real amp and B is the Kemper, quite a noticeable difference either way..

Edit: I looked at the results after, turns out I was wrong.. For your setup I think the Kemper works better for you, it was brighter / clearer than the amp. If you're going for more of a "sludge" type setup coolio.!

Myself I go for Machine Head or LOG style tones, which borders on amp sim territory in terms of clarity.. Different preferences and all that.

@mdme_sadie

If it works for you than it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks, you got a solution whilst I'm back to going through all the effort of mic'ing real amps. So good on ya.!

I love the sound of real amps hitting an SM57 or MD441-U, the sonic fidelity and no compromise sound just works for me, I believe it will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

Last edited by ShadowAMD; 24th August 2018 at 08:34 PM..
Old 24th August 2018
  #52
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I don't agree, but that's a great breakdown on your thoughts.
I find the Kemper puts a bit of a sheen on the hi eq, but actually improves the tone....but almost unnoticable to me. I;m surprise you hear big differences.

Funny, I never listen to LOG but I had a screamer who was into that band big and we played heavier stuff at that time; I used DMoll> TNL.

Closing Walls by Before It Was Written | ReverbNation

One day I'll have to listen to LOG
Old 24th August 2018
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyRayHanky View Post
I don't agree, but that's a great breakdown on your thoughts.
I find the Kemper puts a bit of a sheen on the hi eq, but actually improves the tone....but almost unnoticable to me. I;m surprise you hear big differences.

Funny, I never listen to LOG but I had a screamer who was into that band big and we played heavier stuff at that time; I used DMoll> TNL.

Closing Walls by Before It Was Written | ReverbNation

One day I'll have to listen to LOG
I'll leave with this, if we all followed each other like sheep what a boring world this would be..

Again I'm glad it works for you, hopefully one day I can find a digital solution to replace my Engl Retrotube. If it wasn't for that amp I'd of probably gone with whatever's easiest.
Old 25th August 2018
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patshep View Post
no amp modelling but amp sims?
Well, those are kind of the same thing. When you profile or model the amp you are simulating its sound. Either way, FX8 is just effects, nothing emulating an amp.
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