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Guitarists vs/ Soundmen or Tone, Headroom, Volume and Wattage Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 6th July 2018
  #181
Y'know, it's a funny thing, but my ears hardly ever ring at all. Maybe one a month, late at night when it's quiet, I'll notice a little tinnitus but it always passes within a few seconds to a minute or so. Just lucky, I guess - and I've always tried to keep my distance from cymbals and drums while they're being played. And I'll be 68 on the 13th....

I do, however, have really annoying problems with my wrists and hands that limit my ability on guitar.
Old 6th July 2018
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
Actually I was born in Norfolk UK. I've lived in Tulsa, OK for the last 35 years.

At age 60 I'm pretty much out of the sound business, 'cos my ears ring badly, and I'm not happy with getting to bed at 3 am any more, although. I do run sound a a local warehouse club, Unit D, because they only have shows about twice a month. As you can probably tell , nowadays I prefer relatively low volume shows, Rockabilly, Blues, Americana type stuff.

Here's a typical clip.

YouTube
Thanks that's a very decent mix and I'm assuming (yet again, hopefully on the right continent this time) that by "relatively lower volume shows" you mean "not metal" and I can relate to that and rockabilly a la The Blasters is still well above 100db measured "front row". My guess is this show may have peaked around 113-115db front row.

I'm more than 10 years older than you and though I still play I haven't been "behind the desk"
in over a decade but I still get out a lot, have zero ringing, and no problem going to bed after 3 AM and still love it loud but loud for me is like hard driving Blues Rock, some Rockabilly, and Hard Rock 'n Roll. I've never been fond of 95% of metal acts but Hendrix and Zeppelin didn't seem too loud to me although one Zep show my location was possibly at fault for a nasty high end peak that made me wince when Jimmy played his DanElectro, but never did any ringing occur.

I tried to find a decent and recent recording of a live show from the Norva (mistakenly called Norview in that post) but all but the Chevelle show which sounds like a board recording with possibly a few ambient mikes (and pretty decent, really) seem recorded on phones and they all "bloze goats". That room was built in like 1911 and isn't large, holds around 2000 audience, has a few challenging quirks (narrow rectangular with a very high ceiling) but overall decent acoustics and good bands sound fantastic there.

Your mix, assuming that was your deal, sounded very professional to me in that it suited both the venue and the band and everything was audible without having to strain. It is hard for me to determine how that was recorded since it has a lot of ambient doesn't sound like just field mikes. Maybe it's a board mix with a very live stage with lots of FOH bleed. It would be interesting to know.
Old 7th July 2018
  #183
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I'd like to give an example addressing volume, balance, stage levels and FOH. I didn't pick this video because I don't like it. I love Frankie Miller and find every iteration of bandmate changes at the very least very good and the mostly live "Dancin' In The Rain" album with Brian Robertson is just stellar but in this example please take note of the second lead player (in this tune playing slide) starting around 1:37. I can't be certain what amp he is playing through but I strongly suspect it's the Music Man occasionally visible behind him, partly because of placement but also I am familiar with that band personnel and neither Frankie nor the 1st Lead (4x10 ampeg combo) ever played a MusicMan that I know of. Bottom line there is not one amp on stage under 50 watts and you may notice the Acoustic 360 bass rig which definitely can punch through a 15,000 seat venue with only a little FOH reinforcement.

I don't know whether the mic was off, broken or the soundman was asleep at the wheel but you can only hear what seems to be vocal mic bleed and it should be a useful lesson at just how loud (or not) a 50-100 watt amp can be FOH in larger venues, how important balance is, and the cold water splash effect of failure to achieve a good balance. Compare it to the 2nd lead from the Ampeg 4x10 properly reinforced.

Old 10th July 2018
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Your mix, assuming that was your deal, sounded very professional to me in that it suited both the venue and the band and everything was audible without having to strain. It is hard for me to determine how that was recorded since it has a lot of ambient doesn't sound like just field mikes. Maybe it's a board mix with a very live stage with lots of FOH bleed. It would be interesting to know.
Thanks. That's straight from the stereo mic on the camcorder I usually cringe when someone posts cellphone video of a show I mixed, because it sounds pretty terrible compared to the live sound but, this one captured things nicely


This video came from a benefit show for a local musician who had had a stroke. Six bands in six hours! I think I lost 10 pounds running around moving stuff between bands. JD Mcpherson was generous enough to come in and headline with a backing band of local musicians, god bless him!

I have fond memories of this night because everyone came together to help without any ego problems. We said upfront that we needed a 15minute changeover, so everyone had to use the house bass rig (my old rig) and drum kit (although we let drummers use their own snare and kick pedal.)

Only one band refused to play under those conditions, and as, and as we had 12 volunteers for the six slots, that wasn't much of a hardship
Old 12th July 2018
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
I disagree a few points John. First of all, I would say that I think this conflict is being overblown here. I so seldom encounter the "I can only play at one volume" or "its our signature sound to be really loud" argument that I honestly thought that attitude had pretty much died out. Ditto, it has been YEARS since anyone told me the FOH was "too quiet."

Secondly, I never do Metal bands, and understand the conventions are likely entirely different from what;s normal in Tulsa, OK. If the band is packing the place out, and the people there are cool with high volume, that's a different scenario. But, frankly, as the local club level where I run sound, that's more of a musician's fantasy than a expression of the usual reality.

The usual reality is obviously that the club has hired the band to make money for the club, and, given the modern aversion to cover charges, it's going to make it by selling drinks, preferably expensive mixed drinks and craft beer.

In that equation, the wishes of the 25 fans that personally know the band ( and who drink PBR) don't really count for much. As I've said before, attracting a bunch of local musicians as a crowd isn't enough to keep the doors open. Local venues need to attract a mixed crowd to make money.

I would also counter that "serving the band" is not the same thing as "serving the guitar player." Why turn everyone else up because one guy says he doesn't want to turn down? IME, at the local level, serving the band is getting the sound at a level that maximizes the enjoyment of the audience, and hence the turnover at the door and the bar. This generate new booking, income, and an increasing status on the local scene.

As I said before, IME it is a much greater service to the band to actually mix the show, i.e ride faders on solos , re-adjust vocal balances whenever necessary , change vocal FX depending on the type of song, kill all FX between songs, etc., that it is to accept the guitarist's volume preferences as the building block for everything.
A band's volume should be a band's volume, and it should be balanced on the stage.

Anyone who has ever tried to get an AC30 "in the pocket" will know what I mean. "Turn it down"? I'm just keeping up with the drummer. This IS the sound. If I turn down from here, it will be all attack, no sustain and sound like s**t. Number of sound engineers I've come across who don't understand the basic topology of a tube amp. Any band that has ever played with a drummer who really HITS will know what I mean. You wouldn't ask the drummer to play quieter, would you? Maybe you would.

Now, whether a non-pro band is balanced by the time they get to the stage or not, that is another matter.

Number of guitarists who turn up to a show with the wrong amp... one size does not fit all when it comes to guitar amps (unless you're smart with attenuators).

Seen many a band in a small club where two 4x12's are trying to drown out everything in defiance of science.

Best band mixes you can have are where the band is able to control their mix dynamically by the way they set up & play, and not have a FOH engineer throwing faders all over the place to compensate for poor balance & dynamics.
Old 12th July 2018
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibreman View Post
A band's volume should be a band's volume, and it should be balanced on the stage.

Anyone who has ever tried to get an AC30 "in the pocket" will know what I mean. "Turn it down"? I'm just keeping up with the drummer. This IS the sound. If I turn down from here, it will be all attack, no sustain and sound like s**t. Number of sound engineers I've come across who don't understand the basic topology of a tube amp. Any band that has ever played with a drummer who really HITS will know what I mean. You wouldn't ask the drummer to play quieter, would you? Maybe you would.

Now, whether a non-pro band is balanced by the time they get to the stage or not, that is another matter.

Number of guitarists who turn up to a show with the wrong amp... one size does not fit all when it comes to guitar amps (unless you're smart with attenuators).

Seen many a band in a small club where two 4x12's are trying to drown out everything in defiance of science.

Best band mixes you can have are where the band is able to control their mix dynamically by the way they set up & play, and not have a FOH engineer throwing faders all over the place to compensate for poor balance & dynamics.
Agree that a band should be balanced on stage.
As far as tube amps go, yeah they sound better hotter on the gain, but I’ve used attenuators with great success in keeping great tone while outputting less volume. That is a solution for small venues, if the guitarist is a team player and you have access to one.
Old 12th July 2018
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibreman View Post
A band's volume should be a band's volume, and it should be balanced on the stage.
And for those of us who mix in clubs/bars, how often does THAT happen?
Old 12th July 2018
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibreman View Post

Number of guitarists who turn up to a show with the wrong amp... one size does not fit all when it comes to guitar amps (unless you're smart with attenuators).
Yes, that would be my main point: if you are going to develop a style/sound that will only work when an amp is at a particular sweet spot, you're probably going to have more than one amp. It works the other way too. Went to a bar Friday to see someone's grandson's band ( You know you're old when, instead of "my friend's son is in this band" it becomes "my friend's grandson is in this band"). Opposite problem-he brought a 10W amp to a small bar where the PA was vocal only. Guitar was in flat out saturation all night, which was a bit boring, and was still low compared to the bass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibreman View Post

Best band mixes you can have are where the band is able to control their mix dynamically by the way they set up & play, and not have a FOH engineer throwing faders all over the place to compensate for poor balance & dynamics.

It certainly cuts down my work. The older and more professional the musicians are, generally the less I have to ride faders. perhaps because, the older and more professional the musicians are, the less they seem to rely on FX pedals and frequent instrument changes.

In the age of "everyone has 20 FX pedals" poor balance seem endemic, however. Every time I see the guitarist look down, my hand goes to the guitar mic fader. Even worse is the bass player looking down, because nowadays that usually means "here comes the fuzz tone, and the bottom end is going to entirely disappear."

Vocalists almost always need a bit of riding. Bass and drums I usually leave alone once the balance is right. However, I still think it is a great mistake to assume that what sounds balanced on stage sound balanced in the room. Ditto, a guitar tone that sounds good three feet away may sound quite different 30 feet away.

Further, some cabinets, particularly closed-back 4X12s can also be quite directional: If the room is wide as opposed to deep, the guitar can be quite loud in some spots while it is too quiet in others. The guitarist really can't tell this from the stage, But I can by walking round every now and then. If your amp is stage left, I can blend a little guitar into the right pa stack, and even things up.

The bottom line, to me, is that it is very hard to do a good FOH mix from up on the stage. you have to trust the sound guy to some degree. Whether he/she is worth of that trust is another issue, but it is inevitable.

It's a good idea to bring a "spy" to check out the front sound. However, PLEASE bring someone who can actually articulate what the problem is with the balance, and PLEASE tell me beforehand that they are authorized to speak for you! You'd be surprised how often random people wander up to the sound board and start giving advice!
Old 12th July 2018
  #189
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One thing I think needs to be said especially to players that have difficulty trusting any soundman is there is a huge bonus when players can stop fretting (no pun intended) about the mix. Fewer concerns equals less distraction which means that problem solving side of one's brain can coast allowing that state of Nirvana we all seek, disappearing into the act, spontaneous reaction and utter bliss. This is not to be confused with "udder bliss" which is a whole other thing usually involving members of the audience.

Granted if your band is a "play it by the numbers" sort of act this may not seem a worthy goal or a goal at all, but it is objectively true that humans are more entertained by a sense of "anything could happen" and "playing from the soul" are occurring regularly which means audiences will love you more and likely spread the word - profit!.... unless you're a BeBop band that seeks as small an audience as possible and even then BeBop is the Art and Science of painfully strict discipline unleashed instinctively and passionately.

Consider hiring a permanent soundman. Maybe start offering a percentage off the top for whomever books the band. Since the soundman has a vested interest in seeking decent sized and sounding venues as well as lining his pockets he may become the single most important person affecting your success by booking great sounding venues and making you guys sound your best..
Old 18th July 2018
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Consider hiring a permanent soundman. Maybe start offering a percentage off the top for whomever books the band. Since the soundman has a vested interest in seeking decent sized and sounding venues as well as lining his pockets he may become the single most important person affecting your success by booking great sounding venues and making you guys sound your best..
This practice is not always allowed at smaller venues. Why? No idea.
Old 18th July 2018
  #191
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Originally Posted by untitled73 View Post
This practice is not always allowed at smaller venues. Why? No idea.
I honestly think that its often because of bad previous experiences. I'm happy to cede control to any professional, but bands seldom bring experienced sound guys to small gigs.

I will also work with anyone that the band designates as their agent to advise me on how the mix should be. I'll let them sit next to me, and I'll change the mix to their liking within some pretty broad parameters, but I don't usually let them touch the board until I'm sure they're not an idiot.

A few war stories:

[1] the band "sound man" who, the second I went to the bathroom, pushed all the mains up by 10db , eliciting feedback all round, and driving several people out of the bar. When I ran out of the toilet in panic with my pants unzipped and asked what the h***he was doing, he said that he was trying to give the mix more "punch"

[2] The brother of the basically superfluous 2nd guitarist who decided that this would finally be the night when his brother would be way louder than that other guy (who played 90% of the solos). Every time I queried that the balance between the guitars seems off, he told me that was the way the band wanted it. Finally, the girlfriend of guitarist 1 comes up to the board, and the two of them get into a huge argument over the guitar mix, which the band has to come off stage to de-escalate.

[3] The female vocalist's mother who though that her daughter's voice should not only be predominant, but pretty much the only thing the audience could hear. She kept telling me to turn the drums down even after the vocal was the only thing left in the PA, and the instruments were quieter than the jukebox. Afterward the vocalist told me " Mom likes to see me do un-amplified acoustic gigs, she hates it when I play with the band."

[4] Anyone who staggers up to the board, breathes whiskey in my face, and shouts a 20 minute story about the big name acts he has run sound for, and how he used to run a PA so loud that that it would kill flying birds. There do appear to be a lot of deaf, brain-damaged, alcoholic ex-soundmen in the world.

[5] And the classic weird experience , the guy who introduced himself to me as the band's manager, and sat next to me giving detailed mix advice through the band's whole set. He then disappeared very quickly. Afterwards, the band told me their manger was not there, and the guy was some sort of obsessive hanger-on who followed them around.
Old 18th July 2018
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
I honestly think that its often because of bad previous experiences. I'm happy to cede control to any professional, and work with anyone that the band designates as their agent to advise me on how the mix should be. I'll let them sit next to me, and I'll change the mix to their liking within some pretty broad parameters, but I don't usually let them touch the board until I'm sure they're not an idiot.

A few war stories:

[1] the band "sound man" who, the second I went to the bathroom, pushed all the sliders up by 10db , eliciting feedback all round, and driving several people out of the bar. When I ran out of the toilet in panic with my pants unzipped and asked what the h***he was doing, he said that he was trying to give the mix more "punch"

[2] The brother of the basically superfluous 2nd guitarist who decided that this would finally be the night when his brother would be way louder than that other guy (who played 90% of the solos). Every time I queried that the balance between the guitars seems off, he told me that was the way the band wanted it. Finally, the girlfriend of guitarist 1 comes up to the board, and the two of them get into a huge argument over the guitar mix, which the band has to come off stage to de-escalate.

[3] The female vocalist's mother who though that her daughter's voice should not only be predominant, but pretty much the only thing the audience could hear. She kept telling me to turn the drums down even after the vocal was the only thing left in the PA, and the instruments were quieter than the jukebox. Afterward the vocalist told me " Mom likes to see me do un-amplified acoustic gigs, she hates it when I play with the band."

[4] Anyone who staggers up to the board, breathes whiskey in my face, and shouts a 20 minute story about the big name acts he has run sound for, and how he used to run a PA so loud that that it would kill flying birds

[5] And the classic weird experience , the guy who introduced himself to me as the band's manager, and sat next to me giving detailed mix advice through the band's whole set. Afterwards, the band told me their manger was not there, and the guy was some sort of obsessive hanger-on who followed them around.
These are amazing.
Old 19th July 2018
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
I honestly think that its often because of bad previous experiences. I'm happy to cede control to any professional, but bands seldom bring experienced sound guys to small gigs.

I will also work with anyone that the band designates as their agent to advise me on how the mix should be. I'll let them sit next to me, and I'll change the mix to their liking within some pretty broad parameters, but I don't usually let them touch the board until I'm sure they're not an idiot.

A few war stories:

[1] the band "sound man" who, the second I went to the bathroom, pushed all the mains up by 10db , eliciting feedback all round, and driving several people out of the bar. When I ran out of the toilet in panic with my pants unzipped and asked what the h***he was doing, he said that he was trying to give the mix more "punch"

[2] The brother of the basically superfluous 2nd guitarist who decided that this would finally be the night when his brother would be way louder than that other guy (who played 90% of the solos). Every time I queried that the balance between the guitars seems off, he told me that was the way the band wanted it. Finally, the girlfriend of guitarist 1 comes up to the board, and the two of them get into a huge argument over the guitar mix, which the band has to come off stage to de-escalate.

[3] The female vocalist's mother who though that her daughter's voice should not only be predominant, but pretty much the only thing the audience could hear. She kept telling me to turn the drums down even after the vocal was the only thing left in the PA, and the instruments were quieter than the jukebox. Afterward the vocalist told me " Mom likes to see me do un-amplified acoustic gigs, she hates it when I play with the band."

[4] Anyone who staggers up to the board, breathes whiskey in my face, and shouts a 20 minute story about the big name acts he has run sound for, and how he used to run a PA so loud that that it would kill flying birds. There do appear to be a lot of deaf, brain-damaged, alcoholic ex-soundmen in the world.

[5] And the classic weird experience , the guy who introduced himself to me as the band's manager, and sat next to me giving detailed mix advice through the band's whole set. He then disappeared very quickly. Afterwards, the band told me their manger was not there, and the guy was some sort of obsessive hanger-on who followed them around.
I've experienced all of those multiple times, EXCEPT #5 . Friends, wives, etc. yes, but not someone claiming to work for the band that didn't. So, was the mix advice good? If so, maybe they SHOULD hire him...
Old 19th July 2018
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by untitled73 View Post
These are amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
I've experienced all of those multiple times, EXCEPT #5 . Friends, wives, etc. yes, but not someone claiming to work for the band that didn't. So, was the mix advice good? If so, maybe they SHOULD hire him...
That was absolutely the strangest. The mix advice wasn't bad actually - I've had much worse from people who were associated with the band!

I guess all I'd like anyone to take away from my experiences over the years is that working at the low end with non-professional musicians can sometimes be much harder (and stranger) than working with better gear and professional players.

I freely admit that there are some idiots out there running sound. Owning a PA does not make someone a sound engineer. There are not as many as the anecdotal evidence of guitar players would indicate, however.

Vice versa, the are some guitar players that are thoughtlessly loud and tend to ruin things for their band, Just not as many as the anecdotal evidence of sound men would indicate.
Old 19th July 2018
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
Vice versa, the are some guitar players that are thoughtlessly loud and tend to ruin things for their band, Just not as many as the anecdotal evidence of sound men would indicate.
The most common problem I've had is guitarists who think they have their tone dialed in, and don't realize how trebly and piercing it is, because the speakers are below knee level. You give them an accurate representation of what they have, not knowing that they're unaware of what they're actually putting out, since everyone has their own idea of "tone". If/when they hear it, they get upset because it's not what THEY hear while they're playing.

I've learned that sometimes it's better to adjust it to what I would want to hear, if it's outrageously annoying...
Old 20th July 2018
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by untitled73 View Post
This practice is not always allowed at smaller venues. Why? No idea.
I would certainly hope that would be in, or rather out, of the contract before the band arrives. In fact, I would make certain of it. It is a rather important point and hopefully negotiable. I know beginning bands tend to take any and every gig that comes along just to get a foothold or to be able to simply play in front of people (exceedingly important of course) and make a little money doing it but actually being picky pays off better and faster. Play in front of the right people in the way most comfortable for your band and the word will spread faster. Getting past that first stage is all about reputation and image. It's difficult to overcome bad ones.
Old 20th July 2018
  #197
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Originally Posted by untitled73 View Post
This practice is not always allowed at smaller venues. Why? No idea.
The reason is simple enough. The venue is hiring the band for its own commercial reasons and there are requirements that need to be met. They may be external, IE, sound limits outside the venue or internal issues such as staff being able to hear orders or Workplace Health and Safety issues. The venue hires the sound guy to look after its interests.

What the band wants is secondary and the fact that you needed to ask is proof enough that the house was right in hiring its own engineer.

A band blowing through wanting to be the next Nirvana and believing that excessive volume is FUNDAMENTAL to their "sound" is precisely why they aren't allowed to use their own sound engineer. Ignoring my cynicism for a moment in the modern age of 3-4 bands a night with fast changeovers allowing 3-4 different sound guys to run the sound in a night would also be a nightmare.
Old 20th July 2018
  #198
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Anthony get off your one trick pony please. If live bands weren't part of the club's financial self-interest by the owbner's desire and/or design, he/she like so many, would just play canned music or hire a DJ. Live show clubs are rare BUT still exist exactly because live bands offer something canned music cannot If this wasn't true no live show clubs would exist. So stop posting as if all, or even most live show club owners feel the need to be parental to their employees and distrust their own judgement (or someone they hire) to book appropriate acts for their venue.

I'm sure there are such clubs and club owners as you describe but you have posted that same basic message so many times now that you only weaken your point by displaying your need to endlessly repeat it over and over and over. This thread isn't about Anthony G, it's about displaying the roles of soundmen and band members with special focus on the guy at the desk and guitar players and what their rightful and appropriate job descriptions entail and how to develop an understanding and possibly a dialogue to overcome some of the conflicts that arise.

We get it. Your solution is to turn it all way down and possibly relinquish all control to the soundman and he should in turn relinquish all control to the club owner. Many maintain that they don't want to become live marionettes for elevator music and expect some respect for professional artistic judgment reflected in the contract So please either contribute to that endeavor or stop beating everyone over the head with your unchanging view..
Old 20th July 2018
  #199
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I know someone who has the view of live shows (local bands, so smaller venues) being “too loud and you still can’t hear anything properly”. So they just don’t want to go anymore. Maybe they just had some bad luck, I’m sure they did, but it does make me wonder how many people have this view that we’re oblivious to. Maybe there’d be more local gigs, everywhere, sold out, Mon-Sun, if the sound experience was better all around. What’s coming off the stage is fundamental. It’s possible that this makes more of a difference in than we think...
Old 20th July 2018
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Anthony get off your one trick pony please. If live bands weren't part of the club's financial self-interest by the owbner's desire and/or design, he/she like so many, would just play canned music or hire a DJ. Live show clubs are rare BUT still exist exactly because live bands offer something canned music cannot If this wasn't true no live show clubs would exist. So stop posting as if all, or even most live show club owners feel the need to be parental to their employees and distrust their own judgement (or someone they hire) to book appropriate acts for their venue.

I'm sure there are such clubs and club owners as you describe but you have posted that same basic message so many times now that you only weaken your point by displaying your need to endlessly repeat it over and over and over. This thread isn't about Anthony G, it's about displaying the roles of soundmen and band members with special focus on the guy at the desk and guitar players and what their rightful and appropriate job descriptions entail and how to develop an understanding and possibly a dialogue to overcome some of the conflicts that arise.

We get it. Your solution is to turn it all way down and possibly relinquish all control to the soundman and he should in turn relinquish all control to the club owner. Many maintain that they don't want to become live marionettes for elevator music and expect some respect for professional artistic judgment reflected in the contract So please either contribute to that endeavor or stop beating everyone over the head with your unchanging view..
The fact that you keep on arguing with me about it is proof enough that the point still needs to be made.

There are municipal and workplace laws that are above us all need to be observed/obeyed.

Its not just an issue of a paternal attitude from the venue. The venues business is on the line every night and the venue does NOT trust the professionalism of the acts because time after time the acts have shown a blatant disregard for the legal requirements that the venue must abide by.

Its Rock & Roll for crying out loud. Its rebellious by nature.
If on a forum like this we cant get this message across then maybe we will end up with a situation where the venue owners DO decide that your all too much trouble and there will only be canned music from here on up.

Again. Music doesn't NEED to be silly loud to be exciting. Excessive volume all to often is a mask for a lack of skill and musicianship.
Old 20th July 2018
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
The reason is simple enough. The venue is hiring the band for its own commercial reasons and there are requirements that need to be met. They may be external, IE, sound limits outside the venue or internal issues such as staff being able to hear orders or Workplace Health and Safety issues. The venue hires the sound guy to look after its interests.

What the band wants is secondary and the fact that you needed to ask is proof enough that the house was right in hiring its own engineer.

A band blowing through wanting to be the next Nirvana and believing that excessive volume is FUNDAMENTAL to their "sound" is precisely why they aren't allowed to use their own sound engineer. Ignoring my cynicism for a moment in the modern age of 3-4 bands a night with fast changeovers allowing 3-4 different sound guys to run the sound in a night would also be a nightmare.
Where I live, there are zoning laws that allow for music halls and clubs to do whatever they want. Many places are like this. Residential and industrial/commercial areas of town are designated in SO many places.

I'm sure if you played something at 200 dB and exploded someones head, you could get sued, but really anything short of doing that it's really hard to make a legal case for.

For many places, your argument of municipality law falls short, because it simply doesn't apply in a way that the average PA system we're talking about can reasonably achieve. In other places? Sure. Many have been mentioned in this thread. But I'd suspect that most places not in Europe, Australia and probably some select few large municipalities in the US don't have any laws at all regarding noise in 'music halls' or 'venues.'

As for how loud music SHOULD be.... I'm not one to love ultra loud music, but who are you to tell everyone how they should be enjoying themselves? Volume certainly serves a purpose.
Old 20th July 2018
  #202
Lives for gear
 
Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by untitled73 View Post
Where I live, there are zoning laws that allow for music halls and clubs to do whatever they want. Many places are like this. Residential and industrial/commercial areas of town are designated in SO many places.

I'm sure if you played something at 200 dB and exploded someones head, you could get sued, but really anything short of doing that it's really hard to make a legal case for.

For many places, your argument of municipality law falls short, because it simply doesn't apply in a way that the average PA system we're talking about can reasonably achieve. In other places? Sure. Many have been mentioned in this thread. But I'd suspect that most places not in Europe, Australia and probably some select few large municipalities in the US don't have any laws at all regarding noise in 'music halls' or 'venues.'

As for how loud music SHOULD be.... I'm not one to love ultra loud music, but who are you to tell everyone how they should be enjoying themselves? Volume certainly serves a purpose.
It sure as heck ain't that way in Austin. Here, if someone complains, you get cited. Doesn't matter what the dB level is. Only that someone complained. Even if they moved into an apartment above an existing bar. I've seen it happen.
Old 20th July 2018
  #203
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
The reason is simple enough. The venue is hiring the band for its own commercial reasons and there are requirements that need to be met. They may be external, IE, sound limits outside the venue or internal issues such as staff being able to hear orders or Workplace Health and Safety issues. The venue hires the sound guy to look after its interests.

What the band wants is secondary and the fact that you needed to ask is proof enough that the house was right in hiring its own engineer.

A band blowing through wanting to be the next Nirvana and believing that excessive volume is FUNDAMENTAL to their "sound" is precisely why they aren't allowed to use their own sound engineer. Ignoring my cynicism for a moment in the modern age of 3-4 bands a night with fast changeovers allowing 3-4 different sound guys to run the sound in a night would also be a nightmare.
Most good bands would not perform at the kind of clubs you appear to champion. Or they'd only play there once.

Any band that has any respect for their music is going to be offended at being forced to fulfill the function of being background noise for the manager's friends to talk over.
Old 20th July 2018
  #204
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
It sure as heck ain't that way in Austin. Here, if someone complains, you get cited. Doesn't matter what the dB level is. Only that someone complained. Even if they moved into an apartment above an existing bar. I've seen it happen.
I believe it. But I've seen quite the opposite happen more often, actually.
Old 20th July 2018
  #205
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Most good bands would not perform at the kind of clubs you appear to champion. Or they'd only play there once.

Any band that has any respect for their music is going to be offended at being forced to fulfill the function of being background noise for the manager's friends to talk over.
Many bands won't or dislike playing in Paris for this very reason.
Old 20th July 2018
  #206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
It sure as heck ain't that way in Austin. Here, if someone complains, you get cited. Doesn't matter what the dB level is. Only that someone complained. Even if they moved into an apartment above an existing bar. I've seen it happen.
San Francisco has that problem now. It's one of the reasons that a city that once had a reputation as one of the country's premiere music meccas now has almost no music scene left whatsoever.

It's the result of gentrification/yuppification coupled with a city government totally dominated by the real estate/building developers' lobby. And I do mean totally - Dianne Feinstein, former mayor (during the period when things started to go bad) and now Senator is married to one of the biggest real estate developers in the Bay Area.
Old 20th July 2018
  #207
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
The fact that you keep on arguing with me about it is proof enough that the point still needs to be made.
No, Anthony, you made your "point" a long time ago - now you're just being tiresome.

And, to not put too fine a point on it, you're arguing in favor of a trend that has killed or is in the process of killing vibrant music scenes in many cities across the country.

When somebody can move into an apartment above a music venue that has been operating successfully for decades and effectively shut them down with noise complaints there is something very seriously wrong. One a-hole NIMBY type can make life hell for a long established successful business, cost many people their jobs, deprive hundreds or even thousands of people of a favorite establishment for entertainment that has been an icon for a long time, often even a tourist draw for people worldwide there is a vedry serious problem and the problem is NOT music that is too loud.


In San Francisco this transformed the Broadway Strip from a major musical center in the '70s and '80s that drew tourists from across the nation and globe to a tawdry area of run down strip clubs and SRO hotels.
Old 21st July 2018
  #208
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
No, Anthony, you made your "point" a long time ago - now you're just being tiresome.
And you guys are being tiresome in your continual attempts at ignoring reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
And, to not put too fine a point on it, you're arguing in favor of a trend that has killed or is in the process of killing vibrant music scenes in many cities across the country.
I'm not arguing in favour of it. It just is what it is. Nothing much you can do about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
When somebody can move into an apartment above a music venue that has been operating successfully for decades and effectively shut them down with noise complaints there is something very seriously wrong.
I've seen this happen to an underground city venue where a restaurant above it closed it down because of the noise. Yes I'm not impressed.

I was there in the 80's when week after week, month after month and year after year venues ignored the noise complaints from the communities around them and kept on being too loud.

Well its bit us on the arse now and you can't do it anymore in MANY places without the law taking swift action against it. Trying to start some kind of rebellion against it here on Gearslutz is STUPID.

If you don't like it then find somewhere else to play.
We are talking about small venues here for small acts or up and coming bands here often located in residential area's.
If you have the pulling power to fill a large unrestricted venue then have at it.
Old 21st July 2018
  #209
Lives for gear
 
enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
if someone complains, you get cited. Doesn't matter what the dB level is. Only that someone complained. .
Bingo! There it is, the crux of the biscuit right there. IF SOMEONE COMPLAINS. (I have to assume Anthony G might be one of the first ) This is the result of a litigious frame of reference that has led to requiring that labels must state that Microwaved meals will "be hot when removed from the oven".

I guess my band may need to add a line to our contract requiring all employees of each venue are aware they work in a nightclub live show venue and that they agree to not sue for any hearing damage, real or imagined and possibly add that each audience member while submitting proof of age ID also sign such a waiver.

I wonder how long before Boxing requires these ...

Old 21st July 2018
  #210
Lives for gear
I love watching you all argue about an atmosphere you all created, and the philosophy that caused it you'll take to you're graves. I can't go further …

or is it farther? Never quite understood the difference.
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