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Better Guitar Tones For Bedroom Recording
Old 2 weeks ago
  #211
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
That's the problem though. If you got fooled, you wouldn't know it. They got away with it.
Well, the public has never been too discerning. Me, I don't much care about what might or might not have been used to create the sounds of the finished recording. The performance is a different matter. For some reason I don't find a lot of what I hear these days to be particularly inspiring. I tend to attribute that to various aspects of "modern" computer based recording. YMMV.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #212
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanzer View Post
In this situation...

"Better Guitar Tones For Bedroom Recording"

for me, prior to the nice Two Notes and OX units, "Bedroom recording (hobbiest)" was never an amp/speaker mic'd cab, it just wasn't feasible. It was just a multiFX pedal or tube preamp -> redbox into the AI. In my case the modern load boxes are a godsend.
I guess it all depends on what you call "Bedroom Recording". My lead guitarist/music partner has his bed in the room that is also our control room, with the 24 track Studer, 32 channel console, and racks of outboard. Me, I don't have a bed - I sleep on a couch in a room that doubles as "The Office".

I usually do my vocal dubs in the short hallway between the two - I guess that's the "vocal booth".

Sometimes Bob does his guitar overdubs in the control room, sometimes with the amp in the room, sometimes with the amp in the "live room" (which the landlord refers to as "the living room") and sometimes its one of the amps or cabs in the amp closet.

All depends on what you call a "bedroom" and how far you're willing to compromise your recording, I guess.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Like i said many times before - it works for YOU then use it. Doesn't work for me - i don't use it. In my case its due to the tonal reasons. In yours - convenience and inability to get a setup which gives your neighbours absolute silence (if there is such a thing). I hate doing anything with headphones cause they give a false spatial information and are bad for your hearing. It doesn't worry you.
I am not going to tell you what to use. As long as no disinformation is being spread.
Good luck
Neighbors? I don't need no stinkin' neighbors! Well, not that I share walls with, anyway.

If you care enough about your music you should try to be selective about where you live, if possible.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #214
Gear Nut
 
bmanzer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I guess it all depends on what you call "Bedroom Recording". My lead guitarist/music partner has his bed in the room that is also our control room, with the 24 track Studer, 32 channel console, and racks of outboard.
Now that’s a bedroom!

Happy Thanksgiving John!

FWIW - I noticed Amazon dropped the prices of Two Notes Live & Studio by several hundred bucks in the last week or two. Quite a price change.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #215
Gear Head
 

For good tone quietly, I use the Fortin Nameless and Fortin NATAS plugins from Neural DSP. I'm pretty happy just playing through the plugins 90% of the time.

Do they sound as good as a cranked up real amp? Nope. But they definitely sound good enough to inspire me, keep me playing rather than thinking "damn this sounds terrible, I wish I could turn my amp on" like I have with every other plugin I've ever tried.

I'm able to turn my amps up to around 90 - 95 dB in the room and put a couple of mics on it and it sounds good, but if I were unable to do that, I would go for the silent recording approach with a reactive load/IR before I would try to attenuate it further. I think the whole "chasing cranked amp tones at bedroom volumes" is a rabbit hole you can dump thousands of dollars of equipment into and in the end there's not really that much point to having the speaker making a tiny bit of noise with a microphone in front of it anyway, better to just go completely silent and use IR's.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #216
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavesNotHere View Post
For good tone quietly, I use the Fortin Nameless and Fortin NATAS plugins from Neural DSP. I'm pretty happy just playing through the plugins 90% of the time.

Do they sound as good as a cranked up real amp? Nope. But they definitely sound good enough to inspire me, keep me playing rather than thinking "damn this sounds terrible, I wish I could turn my amp on" like I have with every other plugin I've ever tried.

I'm able to turn my amps up to around 90 - 95 dB in the room and put a couple of mics on it and it sounds good, but if I were unable to do that, I would go for the silent recording approach with a reactive load/IR before I would try to attenuate it further. I think the whole "chasing cranked amp tones at bedroom volumes" is a rabbit hole you can dump thousands of dollars of equipment into and in the end there's not really that much point to having the speaker making a tiny bit of noise with a microphone in front of it anyway, better to just go completely silent and use IR's.
... or build a reasonably decent isolation booth for a few hundred bux.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #217
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
... or build a reasonably decent isolation booth for a few hundred bux.
Yes, build a soundproof booth in your bedroom.
Old 1 week ago
  #218
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavesNotHere View Post
Yes, build a soundproof booth in your bedroom.
Apparently you lack imagination, skills or both. I built an extremely effective "soundbooth" in a bedroom closet that would easily contain a Super Reverb cranked with any bleed into the bedroom well under 60db C Weighted. It may have even worked with a Twin but I never tried one. Princeton, Deluxe, Super, 410 Bassman = no sweat. Total cost - ~$160.00USD circa 1975.
Old 1 week ago
  #219
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Here is a short clip of me running my guitar through my pedalboard into a BAE 1073MP. I think it is passable as a "real" amp in the context of a mix.

I am not entirely pleased with the tone as it sounds a bit "honky/nasally". It sounds like Godzilla Lol. Perhaps with a little more EQ'ing I can get closer to the tone I am looking for. To be fair, I did duplicate the guitar track I recorded and ran it through a parallel compression aux to thicken things up a bit. At any rate, to me it sounds like a loud mic'ed amp.
Attached Files

Comfortably Numb (Alrod).mp3 (2.30 MB, 394 views)

Old 1 week ago
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Apparently you lack imagination, skills or both. I built an extremely effective "soundbooth" in a bedroom closet that would easily contain a Super Reverb cranked with any bleed into the bedroom well under 60db C Weighted. It may have even worked with a Twin but I never tried one. Princeton, Deluxe, Super, 410 Bassman = no sweat. Total cost - ~$160.00USD circa 1975.
Apparently you lack imagination of how peoples bedrooms look like. In my bedroom, there wouldn't even be sufficient space for a Super Reverb, let alone a properly isolated one.
Old 1 week ago
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
Here is a short clip of me running my guitar through my pedalboard into a BAE 1073MP. I think it is passable as a "real" amp in the context of a mix.

I am not entirely pleased with the tone as it sounds a bit "honky/nasally". It sounds like Godzilla Lol. Perhaps with a little more EQ'ing I can get closer to the tone I am looking for. To be fair, I did duplicate the guitar track I recorded and ran it through a parallel compression aux to thicken things up a bit. At any rate, to me it sounds like a loud mic'ed amp.
I applaud you for posting a sample - and yes, I'm serious. After all, music is about sounds, not words.
But in this case, everything is masked by FX and the rather low volume of the guitar in the mix, so it's perhaps not too relevant for those after punchy riffs.
In this context, it sounds quite fine, though.
Old 1 week ago
  #222
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Apparently you lack imagination of how peoples bedrooms look like. In my bedroom, there wouldn't even be sufficient space for a Super Reverb, let alone a properly isolated one.
Apparently I do indeed lack such imagination. I have never in my life seen a closet that wouldn't have some room to spare with a Super Reverb in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Reverb Dimensions
Dimensions: Height: 24⅞" (63.2 cm) Width: 25⅛" (63.8 cm) Depth: 10½" (26.7 cm)
Really?
Old 1 week ago
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Apparently I do indeed lack such imagination. I have never in my life seen a closet that wouldn't have some room to spare with a Super Reverb in it.
I don't have *any* extra closet I could put an amp of such dimensions in in the entire flat. I have a wife and two kids. That should say everything.

Besides, it's still completely meaningless to go for a halfassed isolation booth with even less than mediocre options to place a mic (let alone multiple ones) in front when there's modelers suitable for desktop operation delivering a sound that is 10 times better and more flexible.
Old 1 week ago
  #224
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Fwiw, here's some "fresh from the bedroom" guitars. Just recorded between breakfast and taking my little one to the Kindergarten. Excuse the random levels.
http://www.saschafranck.de/tmp/SF_Bedroom.mp3
Old 1 week ago
  #225
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
I applaud you for posting a sample - and yes, I'm serious. After all, music is about sounds, not words.
But in this case, everything is masked by FX and the rather low volume of the guitar in the mix, so it's perhaps not too relevant for those after punchy riffs.
In this context, it sounds quite fine, though.
You bring up an excellent point. The times I do like emulations, they are layered with effects. When it comes to certain nuances, I just cannot coax those ever so sweet harmonics, and that dimensional air that I like so much out of emulations the way I can out of my tube amps. But hey, that's just me.

In the clip I posted it works because David Gilmour often uses phase, Uni-Vibe, rotary speaker, delay, and fuzz as part of his signature tone. Having his fingers wouldn't hurt either Obviously no one would mistake my bad side of mediocre playing for David Gilmour's. My point is that even as a tube amp zealot, there are times where I like tones that do not necessarily come from a real amp.

So really, genre and style play a role as does the brush stroke an artist is shooting for. More than just a few classic albums from the likes of Pink Floyd, Steely Dan, Doobie Brothers, and others, were from guitars running straight into the mixing board.

Trust me when I say that I would love to dump my amps and the maintenance that comes along with them for software that I can use in the studio that give me the results I am after. Hopefully that day will come. For now though, I love me some tube amps. I also love the newer tube amp technology where 5 - 18 watts can get you some beautiful tones at bedroom level. That being said, emulations only need headphones. Low volume recording doesn't get much quieter than that. Very convenient for writing/recording/practicing at 3:00 in the morning. Not to mention saving on tube wear and tear.
Old 1 week ago
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Fwiw, here's some "fresh from the bedroom" guitars. Just recorded between breakfast and taking my little one to the Kindergarten. Excuse the random levels.
http://www.saschafranck.de/tmp/SF_Bedroom.mp3
Tasteful playing, thanks for posting
Old 1 week ago
  #227
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Fwiw, here's some "fresh from the bedroom" guitars. Just recorded between breakfast and taking my little one to the Kindergarten. Excuse the random levels.
http://www.saschafranck.de/tmp/SF_Bedroom.mp3
That of course is quite nice and most certainly a viable option with substantial flexibility as you have effectively demonstrated, but I don't think anyone with half a brain is trying to argue that all emulation, modelers, digital, etc just plain sucks and is worthless. Kudos by the way. For a "toss off" that sounds extremely good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
I don't have *any* extra closet I could put an amp of such dimensions in in the entire flat. I have a wife and two kids. That should say everything.

Besides, it's still completely meaningless to go for a halfassed isolation booth with even less than mediocre options to place a mic (let alone multiple ones) in front when there's modelers suitable for desktop operation delivering a sound that is 10 times better and more flexible.
If you don't have the room then that ends that discussion beyond mere speculation right there, however it doesn't support that a closet isolation is "halfassed", has less than mediocre mic placement options, or is 1/10th as viable as a modeler.

There is the complexity created by the fact that response in the air feeds back deeply into the amplifier in a real live environment. Now this, of course, makes an isolation enclosure feel and sound different from a big room let alone a concert venue but that complexity is there and it can be tweaked and tuned within a decent range of limitations.

Bottom Line - It is viable, too.
Old 1 week ago
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Bottom Line - It is viable, too.
Anything that works is viable. I just don't see why anyone with limited space or a limited budget would go for a solution that involves quite some work and is less flexible on pretty much all accounts in these days when you can come up with tones such as the ones I posted (plus a whole lot more) using a unit that you could get for around 500 bucks.

I mean, I had quite some decent real amps, mics and space to record them. And yet, I decided to go for modelers full stop even before having to leave my rehearsal/project-studio room.
Usually, I can as well show up with real amps at whatever gigs - and yet, I don't. Even if I still own some. I would not go there with modeler in case it sounded inferior. I don't just chose a modeler because of convenience but because I think that in 95% of all situations I'm running into it sounds better, usually even *much* better. Just getting rid of those unpredictable guitar cabs is a godsend. They have been raising my blood pressure for more than enough time. Really, there's nothing great in a guitar cabinet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
Tasteful playing, thanks for posting
Thanks!
Old 1 week ago
  #229
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Anything that works is viable. I just don't see why anyone with limited space or a limited budget would go for a solution that involves quite some work and is less flexible on pretty much all accounts in these days when you can come up with tones such as the ones I posted (plus a whole lot more) using a unit that you could get for around 500 bucks.

I mean, I had quite some decent real amps, mics and space to record them. And yet, I decided to go for modelers full stop even before having to leave my rehearsal/project-studio room.
Usually, I can as well show up with real amps at whatever gigs - and yet, I don't. Even if I still own some. I would not go there with modeler in case it sounded inferior. I don't just chose a modeler because of convenience but because I think that in 95% of all situations I'm running into it sounds better, usually even *much* better. Just getting rid of those unpredictable guitar cabs is a godsend. They have been raising my blood pressure for more than enough time. Really, there's nothing great in a guitar cabinet.



Thanks!
I think inspiration comes to people in different forms. As a guitar player, sure I can play any guitar, but certain ones cause me to play in different ways. Perhaps listeners cannot tell the difference between what guitars are being played, nor do they care, but as a guitarist it makes a huge difference in how I play and in how I am inspired to create. Amps are no different. I feel a lot different playing into a PC with headphones on vs playing through a cranked tube amp in a large club or studio room. People tend to forget about that type of inspiration. Art is so much more than black and white. We are talking about the ability to create with the mind. Tube, SS, Digital, all effect us in different ways.

I totally get what you are saying about the unpredictability of amps, but to me that is part of their beauty. Those imperfections make them more human. I love that about them. Anyway, just a different perspective.
Old 1 week ago
  #230
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavesNotHere View Post
Yes, build a soundproof booth in your bedroom.
The common term for them is "closets".

An extra layer or two of sheet rock and a little acoustic treatment and there you go!
Old 1 week ago
  #231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Anything that works is viable. I just don't see why anyone with limited space or a limited budget would go for a solution that involves quite some work and is less flexible on pretty much all accounts in these days when you can come up with tones such as the ones I posted (plus a whole lot more) using a unit that you could get for around 500 bucks.

I mean, I had quite some decent real amps, mics and space to record them. And yet, I decided to go for modelers full stop even before having to leave my rehearsal/project-studio room.
Usually, I can as well show up with real amps at whatever gigs - and yet, I don't. Even if I still own some. I would not go there with modeler in case it sounded inferior. I don't just chose a modeler because of convenience but because I think that in 95% of all situations I'm running into it sounds better, usually even *much* better. Just getting rid of those unpredictable guitar cabs is a godsend. They have been raising my blood pressure for more than enough time. Really, there's nothing great in a guitar cabinet.



Thanks!
"Unpredictable" guitar cabs?

Really?

I usually don't find anything unpredictable about guitar cabs. Of course they're all different, but so are guitars, as are nearly all non-synthesized musical instruments (and some synths.) It usually takes me maybe 5 to 10 minutes, max, to get a good sound on a cab. Now, sometimes the guitarist might want something a bit different, but it's rarely a problem. Another 5 minutes for fine tuning generally gets it.

Of course, some guitarists get into "experimenting with sounds" with the mic setup, but that's no different than "playing with settings" on an amp sim (and usually takes less time.) And that's not a problem with the "unpredictability of the cab" its a problem with the "lack of predictability", indecision, or just urge to fool around of the musician.

As to "better", that's in the ear of the beholder.
Old 1 week ago
  #232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Anything that works is viable. I just don't see why anyone with limited space or a limited budget would go for a solution that involves quite some work and is less flexible on pretty much all accounts in these days when you can come up with tones such as the ones I posted (plus a whole lot more) using a unit that you could get for around 500 bucks.

I mean, I had quite some decent real amps, mics and space to record them. And yet, I decided to go for modelers full stop even before having to leave my rehearsal/project-studio room.
Usually, I can as well show up with real amps at whatever gigs - and yet, I don't. Even if I still own some. I would not go there with modeler in case it sounded inferior. I don't just chose a modeler because of convenience but because I think that in 95% of all situations I'm running into it sounds better, usually even *much* better. Just getting rid of those unpredictable guitar cabs is a godsend. They have been raising my blood pressure for more than enough time. Really, there's nothing great in a guitar cabinet.



Thanks!
Well, if you don't have the space it's all academic anyway, but there's essentially no real difference between a medium to large closet such as the hall closet in my house and a small iso booth in a real studio except for treatment - and the required treatment is pretty rudimentary for anyone with even basic carpentry skills, a few hand tools, and a really basic knowledge of studio construction principles that can be gleaned from any number of books or even web pages. And the result is going to be infinitely preferable to a speaker in a tiny iso box like you'd spend 3 or 4 times the money on. Sheet rock is CHEAP. It is also the primary material used for sound proofing in real studios.

And your options for mic placement are infinitely better than you get in an iso box.

I don't understand why you insist that guitar cabs are "unpredictable". I don't think I've ever dealt with a cab I'd call unpredictable. You just have to understand the basic principles of how speaker cabs work.

Unless, of course, there's actually something wrong with the cabinet or speaker, but if your gear is broken you should get it fixed, no?
Old 1 week ago
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
"Unpredictable" guitar cabs?

Really?
Of course. An open back cab sounds entirely different in different locations.
With closed cabs it's less of an issue but they're still way worse than most fullrange designs. With those, you have no speaker beam and the dispersion angle is much better, plus, within that dispersion angle, the sound is a lot more balanced. Stand in front of a guitar cab and the sound is all different when you move for just a meter.
Old 1 week ago
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
I totally get what you are saying about the unpredictability of amps, but to me that is part of their beauty. Those imperfections make them more human. I love that about them. Anyway, just a different perspective.
I absolutely get what you're saying.
Yet, personally, over the years I have come to realize that, in terms of sound, predictability is something I absolutely enjoy. I just don't want my amps and cabs to sound different at each gig or in each rehearsal room - or even just each time I turn them on. I don't want aging tubes that only sound great over a certain lifespan.

Fwiw, this is also true for guitars. I don't want to "fight" a guitar (which is what some people are claiming to like). And ideally, I would like all of my guitars to feel the same, too (at least all electrics, with acoustics it's fine if they feel different because they're completely different animals in my book). This is why I have turned into a "one single electric guitar only" guy as well. I have plenty of them and when recording, quite sometimes I enjoy the different angle and all that. But when it comes to actual live playing, I try to get away with one single guitar for as many gigs as possible - and I usually stick with that one guitar for a number of years. It's that "home" feeling. I can get away with different guitars pretty fine, but it's always just one guitar delivering this very feeling.

With amps it's the same. I may enjoy using different things for recordings, but when it comes to live playing (which is the main thing I do), I like things to be predictable. There's still enough variables when it comes to my playing, the kind of gig, the mood of the day, etc.
Along these lines, modelers are a huge leap forward.

But I do perfectly understand people to look at that in a completely different way.
Old 1 week ago
  #235
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Anything that works is viable. I just don't see why anyone with limited space or a limited budget would go for a solution that involves quite some work and is less flexible on pretty much all accounts in these days when you can come up with tones such as the ones I posted (plus a whole lot more) using a unit that you could get for around 500 bucks.
I didn't mind the work. In fact it was enjoyable plus knowing exactly what went into it gave me the freedom and understanding to tweak it. I didn't find it lacked in flexibility at all... quite the opposite... and it cost a fraction of $500.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
I mean, I had quite some decent real amps, mics and space to record them. And yet, I decided to go for modelers full stop even before having to leave my rehearsal/project-studio room.

Usually, I can as well show up with real amps at whatever gigs - and yet, I don't. Even if I still own some. I would not go there with modeler in case it sounded inferior. I don't just chose a modeler because of convenience but because I think that in 95% of all situations I'm running into it sounds better, usually even *much* better. Just getting rid of those unpredictable guitar cabs is a godsend. They have been raising my blood pressure for more than enough time. Really, there's nothing great in a guitar cabinet.
I handle what you're calling "unpredictable" by using a 30 Watt, single 12 combo on Tilt Back legs set in front of me facing my ears like a stage monitor. It never crowds or annoys my bandmates and gives me utter consistency from one stage to the next. It also delivers fine control of FOH to the Soundman which is where it belongs if he/she is any good. However it still gives me enough serendipity to excite me, which makes me play better, and hopefully excites my audience which is what I'm paid to do and more importantly which pleases me and my mates. Too much predictability flirts with becoming mediocre, if not boring to me. Improv and Predictable are like oil and water in my book. I don't want to send my audience on an emotional journey...I want them to join me for the ride. Different strokes.. ?
Old 1 week ago
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Improv and Predictable are like oil and water in my book.
We've been there before, predictable sounds have nothing to do with being able to improvise or not.

And can we hear some of your bedroom sounds now?
Old 1 week ago
  #237
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Snorktop's Avatar
 

I can't think of anything more perfect for bedroom recording than an original, vintage Fender tweed. They give some of the best tones of any guitar amp ever made at bedroom volumes. They don't take up much space. I've also found them to be amazingly reliable even in live settings compared to new amps if they are set up properly.

If you are a guitarist, this is something well worth saving up for, and a purchase you will never regret. Saves a lot of trouble trying to figure out how to simulate it, and winding up with an inferior sound. Tweeds sound so good they eliminate the need for a lot of pedals, effects and processing, and when you do put pedals on them you will hear a life you never knew.

Go ahead... just mic the tweed.
Old 1 week ago
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
I can't think of anything more perfect for bedroom recording than an original, vintage Fender tweed.
Going for how many thousands?

And can I please listen to some examples of them being recorded at actual bedroom levels?
Old 1 week ago
  #239
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Snorktop's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Going for how many thousands?

And can I please listen to some examples of them being recorded at actual bedroom levels?
As I said, for a guitarist, its something well worth saving up for and not a purchase one would ever regret. Good investment too, as they just appreciate in value. Most prioritize owning a car, we can own a nice amp if at all possible.

Original Champ, Princeton, Harvard, Deluxe are low wattage amps you've heard recorded countless times. The guitar riff on Clapton's Layla was famously recorded on a Champ as you probably know.
Old 1 week ago
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
The guitar riff on Clapton's Layla was famously recorded on a Champ as you probably know.
In a bedroom? Right...
Besides, I don't think that's a very special guitar sound.

So, can I hear some of those famous real bedroom tones?
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