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Better Guitar Tones For Bedroom Recording
Old 5th December 2019
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
I'm quite certain Sascha won't get it and will only continue with his snide, dismissive 'tude, but someone might see through the faults and recognize what was possible for roughly 150 bux..
No, I certainly won't. Because now we're actually talking - err, listening.
In all seriousness, apart from the rather brutal FX abuse, I can clearly see how that would be an *extremely* useful sound. And something that would likely not be too easy to get close to with the cheaper modeling units (the top tiers would likely don't break a sweat, though).

In all seriousness, if you would've posted that recording a lot earlier in this thread, we could've saved a whole bunch of arguing. Simply because it drives your point home. Whether one likes that sound, whether one might rather be after different sounds and whether those might perhaps not be doable as easily - all pretty much irrelevant. At least it's a very useful sound for that very thing, not even the massive FX "treatment" is hiding that.

Life could be a lot easier sometimes...
Old 5th December 2019
  #302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
From the book I’m reading by Rod Gervais, you’ll need a lot more than $50 of sheet rock and foam to build, or reinforce, any room that will isolate sound.

It’s certainly an option, but not really the most practical nor most affordable. That’s also probably a separate topic that belongs in the acoustics and soundproofing forum on GS
Well, prices have gone up a bit, but it still shouldn't cost more than one or two hundred, max. Also, I'd use rock wool, not foam. Foam, is not very effective except at high frequencies.

But still, the materials are cheap. A 4x12 sheet of 5/8" sheetrock costs $19.82 at Home Depot according to Google. 4x8x2" rock wool runs about $10 a sheet in quantities of 6
Old 5th December 2019
  #303
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Snorktop's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
I don't believe for a second that you could get, say, a decent, let alone great modern rock rhythm tone out of a Champ in an iso box. If that was the case, people would do it all over the place. But they just don't.

Again, I would happily be proven wrong. But hey - there's no samples.

You sound like a moron, and don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Dude sent you a list of some of the greatest, most iconic, most emulated guitar tones ever recorded using small tweed amps. If you think a "modern sound" can't be derived from those amps, you are an idiot. It is in studios and live every day. And from any good tube guitar amp. Virtually every guitar track is done using tube amps, and many (or most) of them on lower wattage amps. The amp recorded most of all is vintage tweed, to this day.

Any great distorted tone can be derived from a great clean tone using pedals. And on tweeds, it sounds particularly good.

Your arguments are all over the place. Now its not "modern" enough. I thought the whole problem was volume.

Do people generally play Metallica on a tweed? No, they go to it for blues, vintage, classic rock tones. But they'd be surprised if they tried it. I play metal on a (larger) tweed all the time. It can put a Mesa Boogie to shame with the right speakers/cabinet, a distortion pedal and some turning of the EQ knobs.

Face the facts - modelers don't sound as good as amps, at any volume. Those acts you mentioned use them live when playing big stadiums, never recorded. They will tell you, and virtually every other pro, that it is a compromise in sound made for convenience.

My advice, especially to amateurs recording at home on a budget, is not to waste time and money on secondary solutions. Learn to master the real thing.
Old 5th December 2019
  #304
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
No, I certainly won't. Because now we're actually talking - err, listening.
In all seriousness, apart from the rather brutal FX abuse, I can clearly see how that would be an *extremely* useful sound. And something that would likely not be too easy to get close to with the cheaper modeling units (the top tiers would likely don't break a sweat, though).

In all seriousness, if you would've posted that recording a lot earlier in this thread, we could've saved a whole bunch of arguing. Simply because it drives your point home. Whether one likes that sound, whether one might rather be after different sounds and whether those might perhaps not be doable as easily - all pretty much irrelevant. At least it's a very useful sound for that very thing, not even the massive FX "treatment" is hiding that.

Life could be a lot easier sometimes...
Waal surprise, surprise! I stand corrected. You actually meant what you said that music is about sounds not words. You have my sincere apology. I really did think you were closed to objectivity. I was wrong in that.

I hope you also get it that the reasons I didfn't post earlier are valid. I know how good it could be when recordings were made with the Revox instead of the cassette deck and not screwed around with plugin experiments. Plus, I didn't believe some, especially you, would focus on what matters to this thread, that despite degradation it can still be heard that a big sound can happen in an apartment and not disturb people in the next room, let alone neighbors.

I really wish I hadn't lost some of those quality tracks because it is entirely possible when not blurred by ping pong and cassette dubbing you could hear the sweet nuance that or any decent tube amp has to offer. I have yet to experience such nuance in any digital device but admittedly I have yet to check out a newer Kemper and probably other high end units I don't know anything about yet..

FWIW the overdrive was purely and totally tube overdrive. The amp has no adjustable EQ. It only has 3 volume controls and a buffered FX Loop. It's a single ended EL34 into the Peavey 10. The mic used for that recording wasn't even as good by far as an SM57. It was some rinky dink stereo mic to get two tracks but in that environment that mic behaved Mono. The reverb in the loop is all tube too and uses 2 tanks wired together like a humbucker pup - input out-of-phase (pre-emphasis) and output in series, in phase for greater recovery levels and less noise, though in this recording that's pretty much inaudible.

The minor delay and of course that horrid ping pong were all DAW and I honestly don't recall what DAW that was because, back then, I was still trying several out until I finally sprung big bux for Sequoia a few years later.

Damn! I wish I had just one of those serious recordings left to let you guys hear it when it's done right and more transparent. They were very close to a decent sized room sound. I have to add though that I really don't prefer judging tracks on only headphones. It's much more musical and meaningful to hear Music "in the air".

Anyway, sorry I misjudged you. Play on, Bro.
Old 5th December 2019
  #305
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
Thanks for posting!

I have no interest in crucifying anyone's playing, skill, or talent. I am also very self-conscious of putting my guitar playing/singing on GS because I am neither a guitar player nor singer. I'm barely a musician. I perform violence on objects, call it "drumming", and hope it grooves

I really think examples are important to these kinds of threads and I'm very glad you posted an example of sound from an isolation box. I have never used one, seen one in person, or know anyone who owns/uses one.

So, on this wild ass thread we now have examples of an iso box, a modeler (Sascha) and amp w/ attenuator (mine). Because of us, people can use those to inform their choice of which path to go down for better guitar tone when playing/recording in a bedroom and that's what this thread is all about
Thanks. Now I wish I'd posted it sooner but like all self-demanding artists, we see all our flaws sticking out like sore thumbs when often they aren't as huge as we perceive. Then again that's why and how we learn to refine and polish. This clip is just so unrefined and playful rather than polished (omg!) I just didn't think it was a decent representation, and really, knowing what did actually get recorded when serious, it isn't. It's just a pale shadow.
Old 5th December 2019
  #306
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monkeyxx's Avatar
My small 13x10 ish room has a Marshall half stack, Vox AC30 2x12, and a 1x15 bass amp setup, as well as two pedalboards, microphones, basses, guitars, piano, synthesizers, turntable, full studio mixing/tracking setup, and so on.

It's hard to fit more than one person in there but I wanted to make a case for small setups with a ton of stuff. Including big amps that have the potential to get extremely loud.

The Marshall needs its attenuator, and the Vox needs its master volume, however. There is a difference between having fun, and punishing your cilia.

I guess I do favor the real amps over any of the direct stuff. The fun factor is not a trivial element. Sound quality is really not the question any more.

The tone secret is to drive the front end really hard with pedals and etc, and then to back off the back end with MV or attenuators. Gets into that brown zone.

Last edited by monkeyxx; 5th December 2019 at 08:55 PM..
Old 5th December 2019
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
You sound like a moron, and don't have a clue what you are talking about.
You started the violence threatening - and even if it only happened in this virtual area of the world, it completely diqualifies you from any decent discussion.
I won't even comment on the other bull**** you're touting in this and other threads anymore, you are not worth any reply as you cleary are an utterly disgusting person.
Crawl back under the rock you were coming from or do whatever you feel like - but I will never reply to anything you write ever again.
Old 5th December 2019
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Waal surprise, surprise! I stand corrected. You actually meant what you said that music is about sounds not words. You have my sincere apology. I really did think you were closed to objectivity. I was wrong in that.
All fine with me, no hard feelings. Apart from a few exceptions (see my last post - or rather don't...), I take it as with soccer (I'm playing twice a week) "what happens on the playground, remains on the playground". Or so.

Anyway, as said already, I have a rather intense history with analog equipment (I'm earning my money with this stuff for almost over 3 decades by now) and an equally intense history with all sorts of DI guitars and amp modeling "attempts" (you simply couldn't call a Zoom 9000 anything else but an attempt - and a miserable one at that).
It is also not that I think I've found the holy grail. I do still see why people love amps (and in a certain way, I do as well), I also see the shortcomings of modeling (even if these, at least for me, are more relevant in terms of usability, which simply isn't as direct or WYSIWYG as with analog stuff).

Whatever, as this thread is about bedroom level recording, I think that these days, using modelers is the most comfortable solution (I don't think there's much need to argue about it). And in my case, the sounds I can get out of my arsenal suit my needs better than what I was getting out of my iso cab back then.

Almost needless to say, *if* you already have a decent amp, a bunch of pedals (or whatever other FX) and what not that you're happy with, a modeler would perhaps not be an adequate solution (maybe a Kemper would be, but you'd have to go through a whole lot of profiling to capture all the nuances of an existing rig). In that case, an iso cab is a very viable option - but then, there's the space you need for it (which, in my case, simply wouldn't be existing anymore).
If I were in the situation that I wanted to capture my existing rig as good as possible, I would very likely go for a reactive load these days. They have come a *very* long way and in case you get something like the latest thing from Suhr (Suhr Reactive Load IR), you'd even have an onboard IR loader, so you wouldn't have to worry about monitoring latency while tracking. It'd be pretty much every bit the same as an iso cab, just with additional comfort (watch Pete Thorns videos about it).

In a nutshell, there's many ways to skin this cat.
Personally, in case someone doesn't own a rather exclusive or very personalized analog rig, I would still recommend looking for a modeler of some sorts. I know, there's all the guys dismissing modeled sounds - but I have seen plenty of folks being fooled in situations when they didn't know what was used (I think I already mentioned that on one of the last gigs some other guitar playing guys were wondering where I would be hiding my amp).

Fwiw, I would however *not* neccessarily recommend going the software/plugin only route as there's plenty of other variables kicking in which have a good potential of spoiling the fun. It's a very viable way, too, but you rather need to be computer savy, need a very decent interface and a powerful computer to adress all possible shortcomings.
Old 5th December 2019
  #309
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quick Response - I love Pete Thorn's videos and have tried the Suhr reactive load and totally agree. It's very very good.
Old 5th December 2019
  #310
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Snorktop's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
You started the violence threatening

I will never reply to anything you write ever again.
You said you would never respond to me again three times already.

I didn't threaten you with violence. I just pointed out if you talked to someone's face with the disrespect you do online, you'd get slapped down like an ornery mule.

But you wouldn't do that, because you are a sniveling coward. Who runs away when you lose an argument.

Go play with your modeler, and stay healthy.
Old 6th December 2019
  #311
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grannis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
So have a giggle at a 20 year old lark fellas but do try to remember it's a 12 watt amp with no pedals other than a reverb unit I made in the FX Loop, a touch of delay from the DAW and way too much ping pong from the DAW. Harmonically it suffers from the cheap tape degradation but I think some of what the isolation box could accomplish still gets through, so here it is, such as it is.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1r-...N64IW-SMkguP2p
best GS post i have read in a long time - not the talk, the clip! We can see (hear) beyond the limitations you describe to something very cool.

Not sure I can achieve this with my rig, but you've given me something to shoot for... respect.
Old 6th December 2019
  #312
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis View Post
best GS post i have read in a long time - not the talk, the clip! We can see (hear) beyond the limitations you describe to something very cool.

Not sure I can achieve this with my rig, but you've given me something to shoot for... respect.
Thanks Brother. I'm both pleased and a bit shocked. Guess there are more musicians here with real ears and imagination than I anticipated because that clip, as I said, is really just a pale shadow of what I got from it when actually seriously playing and recording.

All I can add is amp-wise The KISS Method seems to work best. There's a reason that nothing would even be remotely the same or as advanced as it has gotten had it not been for Tweed Fender amps, especially the legendary 4x10 Bassman. It wasn't and isn't still The Holy Grail because it had so many features and bullet points. It's great because it's a simple musical instrument in it's own right. I modded the Silvertone with that in mind... well, modded is a bit weak since it was essentially gutted and redesigned but it is rather Tweed-y and ultra simple. One nice effect of the isolation box is it seemed to get the best of both worlds by using an open-back combo in what was effectively a closed cab of it's own. It exhibited pleasing characteristics of both and that was somewhat tweak-able.

As for isolation, the major issue is low end and that is transmitted primarily in two ways - solid transmission (floors,walls. ceilings) and fluid transmission (air). The air part is pretty easy. The solid part is harder but involves basically two issues - Mass and physical contact.

I used two thickness of 5/8 inch drywall/sheet rock to line the 3/4 inch plywood box and one thickness on the walls of the closet. I checkerboarded the closet walls with squares of 1 1/2" foam and lined the entire box with the same foam. The box rested on two thicknesses (3 inches) of the same foam and for heavier amps supported some of the added weight through elastic bungie cords connected to homemade rubber grommet-like anchors with eyelets from the closet shelf which the ends were supported by one thickness of the foam. Eyelets on the box meant I could add more bungie cords as needed until the floor foam was not overly compressed by the weight.

Since I no longer live in an apartment and can play pretty much as loud as I want but have to deal with room reflections, mic placement, etc. I can get a good tone with less than crushing volumes by running a passive load, even just a resistor, in parallel with the speaker. By also taking an attenuated-to-line level output from the load resistor on one channel and the mic'd speaker on another, a nice blend is possible. That still delivers the inductive and feedback characteristics of a real speaker but also the articulating tightness of a resistive load without having to be over 100db or so.

Building such a box is like Music. Just don't stop. We learn from our mistakes as well as our successes. I'm just glad this mistake clip turned out to be at all useful. It has always been a bit of an embarrassment to me, especially 20 years later .
Old 7th December 2019
  #313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Right, as if you would run around on stage and measure everything.
Only an amateur would think you would need to do that. With a little practice you can SEE what you need unless you're seriously perceptively challenged. It's not hard to estimate distances and angles. I just have to look at an amp in an environment and I pretty much KNOW where the mic goes nearly all the time. I can also tell when placement of an amp will be likely to cause a problem and have a pretty good idea what to do about it.

Quote:
An open back cab is an acoustic dipole and it's *extremely* difficult to achieve predictable results on a live stage. Yes, the results might be ok, but they're still not predictable in many, more likely even most cases.
Again, if you actually know anything about sound it's really pretty easy.

The trick is knowing about sound, which does in fact require a certain amount of learning and studying how things work - and I mean studying real amps in real situations, developing an understanding of the geometry of sound (it's rather like figuring shots on a 3D pool table). It takes a bit of work to get there, like anything else worth knowing.

A lot of people seem to expect to have things handed them on a silver platter and that just ain't how the universe works.

You have to understand what you're doing and why you're doing it. Once you get there it pretty easy. If you don't put in the work you'll never get there and relying on canned shortcuts really won't help.

It's not magic. There's nothing at all mysterious about it. It's definitely NOT a matter of chance.

It's all physics and geometry.

Quote:
Music is about sounds, not about words.
That's a silly statement. Words are how we communicate information. If you don't communicate you don't learn.

Quote:
Posting things such as recommendations to purchase a small vintage tube amp, a bunch of pedals and build an isolation cab around it are completely meaningless in case you have no idea what to expect.

--------
Cart before the horse. You won't know what to expect if you haven't tried it.

Actually, I'd start with just the guitar, amp, and microphone. You can add the other stuff after you get the basic concepts down.

Commercially available iso boxes are limiting as to what you can do, which is one of the main reasons I'd advise converting a closet - it gives you a bit more room to work with.

However you'll never learn ANYTHING about the art of recording guitar is you only use modelers.

Quote:
Also, if this thread was about "help me chose a new tube amp", you can bet it'd take no more than a handful of posts until the first links with sound samples appeared - but once it's about bedroom recording, there's NONE, just excuses.
Excuses such as "it's the most common thing, hence there's no need for sound examples". What a load of bull. The vast majority of home dwellers don't use an iso cab. I know plenty of guitar players around here and apart from one other guy, nobody ever owned an iso cab.
You have a rather limited and somewhat crippling concept of "bedroom recording".

Quote:
Add to this that since around somewhat over 10 years, it's completely meaningless. For the money a decent iso cab plus a mic or two would cost, you could as well just get a reactive load and record your speaker out, then slap an IR of your liking onto the recording. For monitoring purposes, a cheaper DI with cab simulation would be sufficient, such as the Palmer PDI-09 (heck, if it's good enough for Joe Bonamassa...). You might even get away recording just that signal.
Settling for mediocrity is always an option, yes.

Quote:
I would happily be proven wrong in case there were iso cab recordings that were absolutely impossible to match with that method - just that apparently there aren't any, at least they haven't been posted in this thread.
I'm sure there are plenty if you wanted to did around on YooToob.

Quote:

Next step: The amp.
It doesn't help anyone to know that "Layla" was recorded with a Champ or whatever (let alone that Clapton was known for having blown quite some amps because they were cranked all the way and connected in some "don't do this at home!" ways). And well, apart from that it's pretty new to me that "Layla" has made it onto the olymp of desirable guitar tones (IMO the guitars sound mediocre at best and the recording itself sounds like a pile of mud).
Add to this that I don't believe for a second that you could get, say, a decent, let alone great modern rock rhythm tone out of a Champ in an iso box. If that was the case, people would do it all over the place. But they just don't.
First off, the "Layla" sounds that are talked about in this context are LEAD sounds. And anybody who doesn't think that the guitar sounds (on the original Layla with Duane Allman) aren't great, stirring tones must be a little dead inside.

Second, despite this, the tweed Champ is rather limited, especially as regards the speaker. There's a lot of stuff I wouldn't use it for. But where in works, it works with no fooling around.

Quote:

Again, I would happily be proven wrong. But hey - there's no samples.
Samples, schmamples.

If I had a tweed Champ I'd be glad to post "samples" of my lead guitarist noodling in the bedroom, if I could get him to do it (his attitude toward this "sample" crap" isn't much more positive than mine), but at the moment we don't have one in the collection. Class 5 or Pro Jr, yes, even a little SS Frontman.

In an iso box? Probably not. In a closet? Certainly. I don't know what the point would be though.Neither one of us really has much impetus to do it - it's silly.

Quote:

Next step: amps vs. modeling.
I don't even doubt that there might still be occasions when the real deal would be the prefered option.
I don't doubt - in fact I'm quite sure that in certain circumstances might be a commercially acceptable option. I'll giv e you that.

Artistically? Well, if you accept a "paint by numbers" painting as art, sure. And certainly ther are :"paint by numbers" artists who are capable of trabnscending the limitations of tham medium to create something approachiong original art.

But it's still not, and never will be as great as the art created by somebody who goes through the processes of actually LEARNING the art of creation - which includes learning to use the tools one's self and not relying on "paint by numbers" crap.

You may not be able to tell the difference, in which case I genuinely feel sorry for you.

And for humanity in general, if they accept a "paint by numbers" fake as art that's a sad thing for humanity.

Quote:
Especially in case you already own all the goodies, why not try to make them bedroom compatible?
Shirley, you jest!

"Bedroom compatible"? Why in hell would anybody want to downgrade their capabilities?

I make my "bedrooms" compatible to my music , I don't compromise the music to accommodate the bedroom.

The trick is not to downgrade your abilities to the lowest possible denominator, the point is to learn to deal with the limitations you're presented with and overcome them.

You need to figure out how to express your art in the situation you are presented with, not to downgrade and diminish your art to accommodate your limited situation.

Quote:
But then, in these days, especially for bedroom dwelling, there's little to no points in doing so.
If all you're interested in is playing with toys, sure.

By all means, allow your situation to limit and degrade your art.

Quote:
Yet again, I would happily be proven wrong, but I haven't heard anything that wouldn't be easily to do with a decent modeler as well.
It can be done. A true artist does not accept external limitations.

Quote:

Along with that there's the nonsense of "no professional is doing it with modelers". Which is, well, nonsense. Not only that we're talking about bedroom recording and not some big bucks professional productions, no:
A) The pros do it.
B) The pros don't record with Champs in iso cabs, either.
C) What is good for the live tones of some highly acclaimed professional acts should be just fine for some bedroom dwelling, right?
Utter and total nonsense.

To begin with, are YOU one of those "Pros"?

No, you are not.

Do the "pros" record in bedrooms? I very seriously doubt it, except of course for songwriting "sketchpads" which we are not discussing.

Do the "pros" record with iso cabs? They obviously don't need to. However I've known some "pros" who do, in fact, use iso cabs as part of their live rigs.

Your "B" is stupid.

Are some pro musicians using Axe FX and Helix for their live FX? Sure. Are they using those for amps? Mostly not. Are people using Kempers for live amp sounds? Yes, some are - AFTER PROFILING THE SOUNDS OF THEIR RARE AND EXPENSIVE VINTAGE AMPS that they don't want to risk on tour.

BUT THE KEMPER IS NOT A MODELER and only people who don't understand the Kemper - or understand modelers - think it is.

Quote:
Just as some examples: Mark Knopfler is using a Kemper. Metallica are using Axe FX units. Isaiah Sharkey (rhythm player for John Mayer and guitar player for several big names) is using a Helix. I would guess that the tones these guy are after would be working just nicely for some appartment recordings.
But still people insist that running a Champ in an iso cab would be a better solution.
Well, it's been years since I've been in touch with Metallica, but as I understand it most people using Axe FX and Helix units onstage are using the for FX only, not as modelers. I have it on very good authority that this is how Richie Castellano with BOC is using his.

The Kemper is a horse of an entirely different color. It is NOT a modeler in any conventional sense, and only somebody who does not understand modelers and the Kemper would disagree. Tjhe Kemper is a PROFILER - it takes "snapshots" of the sounds of real amps with particular settings and reproduces those sounds. IT DOES NOT USE CONVENTIONAL MODELING TECHNIQUES. There are also some things it cannot profile.

What it come down to is this - Do you want to produce your own original art or do you want to do "paint by numbers" refrigerator paintings?

It's up to you - at this point I really don't came.
Old 7th December 2019
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
[the usual blurp snipped...]

Again, if you actually know anything about sound it's really pretty easy.
You mean, as much as you and your colleagues know about sound? I've heard your stuff, and believe me, my demands regarding sound are higher.


Quote:
First off, the "Layla" sounds that are talked about in this context are LEAD sounds. And anybody who doesn't think that the guitar sounds (on the original Layla with Duane Allman) aren't great, stirring tones must be a little dead inside.
They're easy to replicate with each of the current top modelers, given you've got the right guitar.


Quote:
"Bedroom compatible"? Why in hell would anybody want to downgrade their capabilities?

Did you read the topic of this thread? Not really, right? Do so, it may enlighten you.

Quote:
To begin with, are YOU one of those "Pros"?

No, you are not.
I'm making my life entirely through playing for around 30 years by now. Guess that makes me a pro.

Apart from all that, I can recreate any of the guitar sounds I have heard from you without going through any stupid hoops such as "making my bedroom recording compatible". It's just not necessary anymore.

Last edited by Sascha Franck; 8th December 2019 at 03:15 AM..
Old 8th December 2019
  #315
Gear Maniac
 
standup's Avatar
Clown thread.
Old 8th December 2019
  #316
Gear Maniac
 
cubic13's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
You mean, as much as you and your colleagues know about sound? I've heard your stuff, and believe me, my demands regarding sound are higher.

Did you read the topic of this thread? Not really, right? Do so, it may enlighten you.

I'm making my life entirely through playing for around 30 years by now. Guess that makes me a pro.

Apart from all that, I can recreate any of the guitar sounds I have heard from you without going through any stupid hoops such as "making my bedroom recording compatible". It's just not necessary anymore.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
(2 days ago) You started the violence threatening - and even if it only happened in this virtual area of the world, it completely diqualifies you from any decent discussion.
I won't even comment on the other bull**** you're touting in this and other threads anymore, you are not worth any reply as you cleary are an utterly disgusting person.
Crawl back under the rock you were coming from or do whatever you feel like - but I will never reply to anything you write ever again.

Wow, you must be a huge pro to state things like that (or overly pretentious...). Rather insulting and "threatening", don't you think ?

FWIW, I'm in the same the boat as the OP : have to be very careful about the level of the noise I am doing with my rig (neighborhood, as usual...). And guess what ? I'm perfectly able to get any kind of tones with it, including over saturated tones without problem, and at a conversional level. For this, I use these :

- Takamine TAN16C (yes, an electro-acoustic one, but I can get the same thing with my Strat, pushing its volume knob close to 10...)
- Laney IRT Studio (tube amp head, using its <1W input)
- Palmer PCAS112 cab.

It looks like this :





And no, I'm not going to post a "sample", for a simple reason : even if I do so, nothing will prove you anyway that it has been recorded as the cabinet was delivering more or less a 70 dB SPL pressure. So...

Seriously, you should get a grip : we all have understood that your choice is using modelers rather than "analog" gear. Great... So what ?
Old 18th December 2019
  #317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
You mean, as much as you and your colleagues know about sound? I've heard your stuff, and believe me, my demands regarding sound are higher.
"Higher"? No. Different? Certainly.

What guys like you don't seem to get is that, after a lifetime of involvement in many different kinds of music in many different roles, what I'm doing now is intentionally primitive, in many ways returning full circle to where I came from over 50 years ago.

"My colleagues" (if you're talking about people I've worked with") include a number of people who are quite well known, some of them certainly better known than you.

I make the music I make because I like it. If you don't, fine*.

Screw you!



* - 40 years ago, when I was young, stupid, and musically bigoted I probably wouldn't have cared for it much, either.
Old 18th December 2019
  #318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Apart from all that, I can recreate any of the guitar sounds I have heard from you without going through any stupid hoops such as "making my bedroom recording compatible". It's just not necessary anymore.
First, as I have stated on numerous occasions, I am a RHYTHM GUITARIST and have been for quite some time, following a series of left hand injuries.

Second, the music I'm into making now, and have been for the past 15-20 years doesn't call for guitar pyrotechnics or "playing with sounds".

That doesn't mean that I don't know about that crap. Electronics? Hell, yeah. The entire middle period of my career was deeply involved with electronics.

Metal? Most of my work in metal has been as an engineer, mostly live, and as an electronics tech. But live engineers and electronics techs generally don't get much credit, or didn't until they started doing internet videos. Which didn't really come into vogue until I wasn't doing that anymore.

Most people do a lot of different kinds of music over the course of a lifetime. People who don't (and aren't lucky enough to become so famous that they get morte or less locked into one image) are afflicted with a peculiar sort of "artistic tunnel vision" in which they become unable to recognize the validity of anything outside their own limited tastes.

The lead guitarist I work with has done punk rock, metal, improvisational psychedelic prog, down home blues,and, now, old fashioned honkytonk country - BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HE WANTS TO DO NOW. We are playing the music we want to play. Some of the records he made in previous incarnations go for significant money on Ebay.

Any guitar sounds you've heard played by ME, personally, can be easily recreated in the average bedroom or nearly anywhere else. I play rhythm guitar. ACOUSTIC rhythm guitar. All you need to get it is an old J-200 or Guild D-40, aq Neumann KM84 or AKG C12A, a clean, high quality preamp, and a quality recording medium. And the knowledge of where to put the mic. No secrets. I rarely touch my electric guitars anymore.

So what? That's not what I'd do on someone else, playing an entirely different sort of music.

A good engineer needs to be able to understand and work with any kind of music.
Old 18th December 2019
  #319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
For UA apollo owners or those considering Apollo: Cory Wong and how he gets his guitar tone for Vulfpeck and Fearless Flyers by only going DI into apollo and using UA plugins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3fStcglxoQ
Good for him. Of course you're assuming that it's true that that's the only story.

You wouldn't have got that from UA sales literature or UA sponsored vids, would you?

Of course, some types of music are better suited to certain recording approaches than others (and vice versa.) For example, a lot of funk music tends towards clean sounds recorded direct. That wouldn't work very well for AC/DC style rock.
Old 18th December 2019
  #320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
The materials may be affordable (depending on where one lives) but then there is time and labor. If you've got experience, then it's probably a-ok. For me, I'd be up s**t creek with out a paddle or map. Translation - I've never done this type of construction/handy work. I would definitely go with 703 or rock wool if I did this. But, wouldn't new studs need to be built for a second wall? Or, are you just talking about adding a sheet of drywall to each wall in a closet? If insulation is involved, I assumed there would need to be a second wall. And if I had to put studs up in the one closet I have in my home (buillt 1938), there is no more closet. It's not very spacious. I'll take a pic tonight.

Wouldn't the floors and ceiling need to be floated to prevent sound transmitting above and below? I mean if we are talking about a closet in an apartment, then having neighbors above and below is almost certain unless you live on ground level or top most floor.

I really don't know what would be needed as my experience is only with acoustic panels and not actual sound proofing.

Don't misunderstand me. I think an isolation booth/box is certainly a real suggestion. I personally just think it isn't the most practical or cost effective. To each their own. YMMV
I am indeed talking about simply adding one or two additional layers of drywall to the closet. No double wall. Maybe a layer of green glue.

Attenuation is achieved via the mass of the drywall and nothing else. (I'd also probably want to swap out the door for a solid door instead of the usual chintzy hollow doors usually used for closets.)

That should be adequate for any small to medium sized amp in most situations.

Another thing that would help is isolating the amp/cab from the floor with something like Auralex Platfoam. Auralex also makes a couple of various isolation platforms for this purpose. Doing that will reduce the low frequencies from traveling through the structure of the building.
Old 18th December 2019
  #321
Lives for gear
 
enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
For UA apollo owners or those considering Apollo: Cory Wong and how he gets his guitar tone for Vulfpeck and Fearless Flyers by only going DI into apollo and using UA plugins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3fStcglxoQ
Thanks! That was actually quite interesting. He knows exactly what he wants and he's learned how to get it, or at least the meat of it, digitally. I really enjoyed when he added in the Tape plugin and said he had no idea what it does except "it adds this 'thing'". Bingo! Music.
Old 19th December 2019
  #322
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Thanks! That was actually quite interesting. He knows exactly what he wants and he's learned how to get it, or at least the meat of it, digitally. I really enjoyed when he added in the Tape plugin and said he had no idea what it does except "it adds this 'thing'". Bingo! Music.
The only thing is, the same sound can be achieved with any half-decent (maybe tube) DI and possibly a comp pedal going direct. If you know how to use a mic pre in that chain (direct) your palette doubles. Much cheaper and better.
Old 19th December 2019
  #323
Lives for gear
 
enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
The only thing is, the same sound can be achieved with any half-decent (maybe tube) DI and possibly a comp pedal going direct. If you know how to use a mic pre in that chain (direct) your palette doubles. Much cheaper and better.
I'd just use a real amp but I can't hold it against this guy for getting there a different way. It seemed obvious to me that he just played with all or most of the options until he found something he could use and possibly thinks that over the long haul he has a greater selection. Wrong or right, he makes it work for him, and that's good enough.
Old 19th December 2019
  #324
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
I'd just use a real amp but I can't hold it against this guy for getting there a different way. It seemed obvious to me that he just played with all or most of the options until he found something he could use and possibly thinks that over the long haul he has a greater selection. Wrong or right, he makes it work for him, and that's good enough.
Sure. He did spill it from memory that he is using an amp too . But if it rocks his boat, and he is payed for doing the vid - all good
Old 19th December 2019
  #325
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
He said there was an amp for monitoring, which isn’t recorded, that bleeds into the drum mics when the fearless flyers recorded.

I’m not sure why you want to hate on his sound. It’s one means to one end and it works. Yes, it was a promo for UA because that’s what Vulf uses, but Cory was pretty open about alternatives (compressor pedals) and using whatever
Plugins you’ve already purchased.

I thought it was cool he didn’t come out and endorse any particular UA plugins, even when lead in that direction by the UA rep, and also said that the UA compressors (specifically the 2500) help him achieve the same thing a pedal compressor gets him. He was actually trying to find a compressor that sounded most like his pedal. So, I thought he was being real with us and saying “here’s the map. Use UA if you got it, but if not, here are some other ways to get to the same place ”. Let’s be real, too. 90% of that clean sound is how Cory plays.

YMMV
I dont hate anybody's sound. I am not precious about tech as long as i get results i want.
His sounds are like many DI sounds. Many pedal pres (especially SS) can get that easily. I have done that or went into a mic pre many times. If it suited the song. There is nothing new or superior there. Many, much cheaper tools can do it. If he wants to use UA (I have a couple of Sattelite's and the first card by UA from ages ago) fine. I have been using Creamer with amp sims ages ago, Ampfarms. Lots of other digital toys. But keep coming back to amps.
Old 19th December 2019
  #326
Gear Guru
I do think it is good to learn your craft with an amp and guitar and figure out what you're particular tone is. It will be very helpful in defining whatever choices you make down the line.....
Old 19th December 2019
  #327
Lives for gear
 
Snorktop's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
Correct. Not gonna work for heavy stuff. It isn’t meant to be an all-in-one solution. It’s just another tool in the toolbox for Apollo owners. It is one example of one way to get really good clean tone for bedroom recording by someone who’s well known for recording in a bedroom. A lot of Vulfpeck is recorded in their home and fearless flyers is actually recorded in their home studio (I think).

The fearless flyers (below) feature drummer Nate Smith, who has been everywhere the past year or two

https://youtu.be/8P-y0mD442I

That is not the sound of an amp sim. It is the sound of guitar going direct. He uses the amp sim very slightly only part of the time, for a little extra fatness and color.

It is possible to get a very dry, pure sound of the guitar going direct. Sounds nothing like an amp. Works for those funky Prince-style cleans, especially on a Strat. I've done it, its heard on many recordings.

Very nice guitar work by Cory using this, sounds great. It's a very limited tone though.
Old 23rd December 2019
  #328
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
That is not the sound of an amp sim. It is the sound of guitar going direct. He uses the amp sim very slightly only part of the time, for a little extra fatness and color.

It is possible to get a very dry, pure sound of the guitar going direct. Sounds nothing like an amp. Works for those funky Prince-style cleans, especially on a Strat. I've done it, its heard on many recordings.

Very nice guitar work by Cory using this, sounds great. It's a very limited tone though.
Who would've thought we'd ever agree on something - but in this case I totally do. Kickass player, nice sound as well, but not what you'd usually chose.
Old 4th January 2020
  #329
Lives for gear
 
enorbet2's Avatar
I don't know how much this will be witnessed now that there are so many Amps vs/ Sims threads nor why I didn't bother to search much before and post some really cheap but effective isocabs but there are lots of them, including a thread right here on GS about "Isocab Success Stories". Anyway this one is ultra cheap and though I would employ more mass, like sheet rock, even this seems quite effective, accessible and cheap.

Old 4th January 2020
  #330
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
I don't know how much this will be witnessed now that there are so many Amps vs/ Sims threads nor why I didn't bother to search much before and post some really cheap but effective isocabs but there are lots of them, including a thread right here on GS about "Isocab Success Stories". Anyway this one is ultra cheap and though I would employ more mass, like sheet rock, even this seems quite effective, accessible and cheap.

You know, this is all fine and dandy (and using a kick drum case does add some "flavour"), but there's *no way* this is bedroom/latenite compatible, simply because there's not enough wall thickness to isolate any lower frequencies enough.
I know this because I've been through the process. It's all fine during daytime but in case you really want to be able to record at any time of the day, this will not work. And yes, that's a matter of physics, lower frequencies just need thick isolation. For this very reason, my own attempt went *way, way, way* larger than what I'd originally thought.
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