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Better Guitar Tones For Bedroom Recording
Old 4 days ago
  #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
This is not a battle. [snip...]

Your way works. So did mine. What's the conflict?. IOW why continue on this unless you simply perceive this is some sort of pissing contest you need to win? I don't. It's just a suggestion based on experience for a viable and cheaper option. Do with it what you will.
This thread is about recommendations for bedroom level recording solutions.
And all that vintage here, amp and cab there gibberish doesn't help *anyone* to make a balanced decision. As easy as that.
So, post some sounds of whatever you might think will work or don't post. Anything else isn't helpful at all because the entire blurb has already been repeated ad nauseum. With the analog afficionados falling completely short on the audio example side of things. Time to put up.

Last edited by Sascha Franck; 4 days ago at 06:46 PM..
Old 4 days ago
  #272
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
Sure, if you dime it. Tweeds sound amazing with just a touch of hair from natural overdrive.

Really any good small tube amp can get great bedroom level tones if not cranked and used with pedals. I had a Bugera v22, a Laney Lionheart, small modern Fenders, Hughes & Kettner 18, all were capable of great tones at bedroom levels. If your wife is watching Hallmark next to you, the only acceptable level is 0.
And that my friend is the point LMFAO. My level for recording in the bedroom is zero with headphones on lol.
Old 4 days ago
  #273
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Tube preamp and cab sim.
Old 4 days ago
  #274
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
This thread is about recommendations for bedroom level recording solutions.
And all that vintage here, amp and cab there gibberish doesn't help *anyone* to make a balanced decision. As easy as that.
It's only gibberish to you because you think modelers do everything better. You like your purchase. Fine. It isn't the only game in town despite your protests to the contrary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
So, post some sounds of whatever you might think will work or don't post. Anything else isn't helpful at all because the entire blurb has already been repeated ad nauseum. With the analog afficionados falling completely short on the audio example side of things. Time to put up.
LOL. Dude... you don't control what, when or how others post. You seem to ignore the fact that isolation of various kinds has been around for almost a century... Modelers not so long, like 1/10th as long. The point is nobody needs to post isolation sounds because they proliferate. They're all over. You'd probably recognize that if you weren't being so blinded by one solution as The Only solution. Despite that modelers do serve a function there are modern bands who use modern commercial isolation solutions like AxeTrak and especially Hermit Cab for both recording and utterly quiet live stages, where volume levels are all controlled by the Soundman. Some even combine them with digital of one type or another. Isolation works too and even better, smaller, cheaper, and more readily available now than 50 years ago.

Kindly stop being "that guy"...



There can be more than one and really isn't that preferable to some cookie cutter sole solution?
Old 4 days ago
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
It's only gibberish to you because you think modelers do everything better. You like your purchase. Fine. It isn't the only game in town despite your protests to the contrary.
I have not even ONCE claimed modelers were the thing that would do everything better.
But you have claimed isolated small tube amps would be as good - and yet, you didn't come up with just *ONE* single sound example. So, how much credibility do you think you've earned by making bold claims without delivering any kind of proof? It's completely pathetic, really.

I have been through this endless times already - it's like a friggin' comedy.

Quote:
The point is nobody needs to post isolation sounds because they proliferate. They're all over.
If they are "all over" - how comes you didn't manage to point me to just ONE single example all throughout this thread? You do realize that this is just lame, right?
Old 4 days ago
  #276
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
I have not even ONCE claimed modelers were the thing that would do everything better.
Ok...my bad... not 100%, only 95%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Frank
I don't just chose a modeler because of convenience but because I think that in 95% of all situations I'm running into it sounds better, usually even *much* better. Just getting rid of those unpredictable guitar cabs is a godsend. They have been raising my blood pressure for more than enough time. Really, there's nothing great in a guitar cabinet.
[
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
But you have claimed isolated small tube amps would be as good - and yet, you didn't come up with just *ONE* single sound example. So, how much credibility do you think you've earned by making bold claims without delivering any kind of proof? It's completely pathetic, really.

I have been through this endless times already - it's like a friggin' comedy.

If they are "all over" - how comes you didn't manage to point me to just ONE single example all throughout this thread? You do realize that this is just lame, right?
What I realize is that there is a huge difference between what some people consider bedroom levels and what others do, and that some people prefer One-Size-Fits-All to a custom fit. Shoot! Some here have claimed a 5 watt amp can keep up with a drummer and I find that absurd! A 5 watt Champ played clean is lucky to put out 85-90db, depending a bit on what one considers clean but full bore, dirty as Lil' Kim, 100db is absolute tops. Drums can do 120-140db unamplified, no sweat.

As for sonic examples you've already been given the example of Clapton on a Champ and while not exactly most people's idea of bedroom volume level, unless you live in a cheap trailer home, 85db inside your home isn't going to wake up any neighbors who don't share a wall with you, at maybe 60-70db in their adjoining room.

Surely Jimmy Page's infamous and enigmatic 'small amp" for the first three Zep albums, while still not precisely known, appears to be roughly in the 20-30 watt range and might have been capable of say 110db sorta clean. A 10' x 10' isolation room could easily have dropped that to less than a whisper outside that room. These days, so could a Hermit Cab.

Muscle Shoals main room had no isolation, other than small "baffles" so bands had to be recorded essentially live. They played at lower levels with smaller gear to minimize bleed. What little there was is often thought to contribute to the sense of 3 dimensional space. Duane used a Champ on Layla and it's unlikely that was the first time, especially considering Muscle Shoals layout.

Here is a short list of 10 huge sounds recorded on tiny amps ---Small Amps, Huge Sounds ---

That said, as I mentioned before about my closet booth, while I never tried a Twin in it I recorded Supers quite a few times, and it was whisper quiet in the adjoining room. There are also example of numerous isolation solutions on YouTube but personally I like AxeTrak and especially Hermit Cab the best even though they don't offer as much reduction as my homebuilt closet treatment did.

Here's a 16 second demo from 2019 NAMM



Surely you are aware that recording studios do now and have always frowned on extreme volume for recording. Most attempts at trying to record a Marshall Stack at full bore have failed miserably unless they were completely isolated. Most then opted for smaller rigs so those sounds are out there a-plenty and surely you know that, so why all the fuss over "Show me!". They are literally a matter of historical record. Lately there are beginning to be a record of modelers, emulators and such doing great work, too. Yours works for you and could be something OP likes. See? You're done... and so am I. Further discussion isn't going to prove anything to OP. He has the info. Now he needs to hear for himself and preferably in person unless what's on record is enough for him to try.

In all seriousness, I'd wager he might choose digital because the belief that "New == Improved" is programmed deeply in all of us by advertising bombardment when really nothing is so simple as to be all good or all bad. Everything is a package deal tradeoff.
Old 4 days ago
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Here is a short list of 10 huge sounds recorded on tiny amps ---Small Amps, Huge Sounds ---
There's no mention of the actual volumes used. A cranked Champ is still *way* too loud for any typical appartment.

Quote:
Here's a 16 second demo from 2019 NAMM

So that is your example of a great guitar sound at bedroom levels? Come on, even I could find something better in a matter of seconds.
I know, it's just to demonstrate the isolation capabilities of the Hermit Cab - which don't seem to be particularly great. And the sound doesn't justify using anything like that anyway.

Again, so far I haven't heard a single example of a nice guitar sound recorded at bedroom levels. Even less so a sound that was actually recorded by you or any of the other analog enthusiasts in this thread.
If that way of recording was so great, how comes none of you folks has anything at hand that us mere losers could listen to in order to become believers in the analog truth?

Fwiw, I already mentioned it in this very thread that I have built and used an isolation cab in the past. It had to leave me the very day IRs (and the required loading software) got decent. Simply because IRs are tons more flexible and better sounding than any mediocre attempt at micing a cab.
Old 4 days ago
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Seriously, these days it's pretty cheap to get very, very decent guitar sounds into your songs without any of the traditional hassle.

Dude, you attack the opinion of anyone who recommends an actual guitar amp. Not even people who necessarily criticize modelers, just anyone who advocates a real amp. That is absurd.

You ask for recorded proof. Try listening to virtually ANY RECORDING. Professional recordings using modelers are very rare. Why is that? I'd be curious to hear a popular recording that uses a guitar modeler if you can link any.

If modelers are just as good, why do the vast majority of professional guitarists and studios still use tube amps? You will find them at every studio, used much more than modelers. Do you honestly think professional studio owners and recording engineers care about nostalgia? I guess they aren't as experienced and successful in the music biz as you are.

Some people are looking for more than "very, very decent" on their recordings. Also, dicking around with modelers, plugins, effects, etc is more hassle than micing a small amp imo.

And you don't need to necessarily crank them loud or break the bank to get good results. You crank to get natural tube overdrive, but many pedals do great at this even at low volumes. And some great amps, like my Matchless for example, has a built in attenuator.

In my opinion, you are the one leading people astray with your advice. If you are on a ridiculously low budget, or just want something to practice/compose on, fine. But for serious recordings, micing an amp is definitely the way to go. And I would venture to say 9 out of 10 pros agree with me.
Old 4 days ago
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
Dude, you attack the opinion of anyone who recommends an actual guitar amp. Not even people who necessarily criticize modelers, just anyone who advocates a real amp. That is absurd.

You ask for recorded proof. Try listening to virtually ANY RECORDING.
FFS, read the title of this thread! It's about BEDROOM LEVEL! We're talking about people who want to record at very low levels in their bedrooms. Hence they don't have mics and further pre- and post-processing stuff up to the wazoo - but that is precisely what's used on most recordings. How comes this seems to completely escape you?

Quote:
Professional recordings using modelers are very rare.
You have no idea of what you're talking about. Look up Michael Wagner. Or Franz Plasa here in Germany. Look what they have to say about the Kemper.

And still, you didn't provide a *single* link to any file of some kickass bedroom level recordings. That's just superlame.
Old 4 days ago
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
FFS, read the title of this thread! It's about BEDROOM LEVEL!
So you are saying that those awesome, classic, huge sounding recordings using 5w-15w watt amps sound like crap if you turn them down a little bit? Nonsense.

Even for home recording, I'd recommend a small tube amp and a good drive pedal for the very best results. Especially a tweed. Plug in, sounds great even at low volume with no hassling.

I said popular recordings using a modeler. I never heard of Michael Wagner, but first glance at his YouTube has him in a room full of great tube amps and cabs, ripping a vintage Marshall on a 4x12 Orange cab. LOL

Link to a great recording with full band using a guitar modeler, what's the problem?
Old 4 days ago
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
So you are saying that those awesome, classic, huge sounding recordings using 5w-15w watt amps sound like crap if you turn them down a little bit? Nonsense.
Can you even read? It doesn't seem like it.
I'm not talking about turning the recording down but I'm talking about recording at bedroom level. You somehow seem to have a hard time understanding this.

Quote:
Even for home recording, I'd recommend a small tube amp and a good drive pedal for the very best results. Especially a tweed. Plug in, sounds great even at low volume with no hassling.
Again, where's your examples?
The answer is: You very likely don't have any. Otherwise you would just post some.

Quote:
Link to a great recording with full band using a guitar modeler, what's the problem?
Dude, you are the guy who is MISERABLY failing at linking to any kind of music recorded at bedroom levels - and still you're asking me for links? Good golly...
But well, as I'm not such a tool, look here:
Kemper profiler - any actually decent recordings?

I am now done with you. You have *zero* to add to this discussion but clueless blurb and utter nonsense. Bye.
Old 4 days ago
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
I am now done with you. You have *zero* to add to this discussion but clueless blurb and utter nonsense. Bye.
Are you seriously asking for recorded proof that small vintage tweeds sound good at lower volumes? There are countless recordings of them, and they just don't go that loud. You think they are always dimed? Even the clean recordings?

And I would think a religious fanatic like you would be able to post at least one link of a professional recording using a modeler. Even that thread you linked me to is strangely devoid of them, just a few demos.
Old 4 days ago
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
Are you seriously asking for recorded proof that small vintage tweeds sound good at lower volumes? There are countless recordings of them, and they just don't go that loud. You think they are always dimed? Even the clean recordings?
You can't stop the blurb, right? You have not supplied *any* prove for your bold statements.
You haven't pointed me to a single bedroom level recording. Not even one. If there were tons of them, it should be easy. And yet, you are failing as miserably as it gets. What a poor strategy.

And that will now really be it. Maybe someone else will enjoy your BS.
Old 4 days ago
  #284
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
There's no mention of the actual volumes used. A cranked Champ is still *way* too loud for any typical appartment.
If all we are talking about is a Champ, then 50 bux or less worth of sheet rock and foam in a closet will knock" way too loud" down to a soft spoken conversation level even in the bedroom. Any neighbors complaining about conversation levels of "noise" can kick rocks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
So that is your example of a great guitar sound at bedroom levels? Come on, even I could find something better in a matter of seconds.
I know, it's just to demonstrate the isolation capabilities of the Hermit Cab - which don't seem to be particularly great. And the sound doesn't justify using anything like that anyway.
C'mon Sascha, you're grasping at straws. That guys tone sucked at full volume. Tone is not why I chose that video. It was simply to demonstrate the degree of SPL reduction which is substantial by anyone's standards.

As for tone I am certain that Duane and Eric's "Layla" tones can be had with a Champ in a bedroom closet with just a few bux worth of ingenuity and a little elbow grease 'cuz I've done it as have thousands of others. I understand your space is more limited but that doesn't mean everybody is in that same boat.

Nobody is likely to post a sound clip because I'm pretty sure nobody believes you really want to hear it, if Layla isn't enough for you already. Face it, Bro... ur completely convinced already.
Old 4 days ago
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
As for tone I am certain that Duane and Eric's "Layla" tones can be had with a Champ in a bedroom closet with just a few bux worth of ingenuity and a little elbow grease 'cuz I've done it as have thousands of others. I understand your space is more limited but that doesn't mean everybody is in that same boat.

Nobody is likely to post a sound clip because I'm pretty sure nobody believes you really want to hear it, if Layla isn't enough for you already. Face it, Bro... ur completely convinced already.
Err...
"Layla" wasn't recorded at bedroom levels. So why do you continue bringing this up?
In addition, that's not even a special tone. In fact, the recording sounds pretty damn bad by any standards, even back then. Compare it to anything else from that era and you'll instantly notice how much of a wishy-washy sound it is.
So I wouldn't know why anyone would chose this as a proper example for any kind of guitar tone - let alone in a thread about bedroom level recording. Because, as said, "Layla" wasn't recorded at bedroom levels.

So, in case that is your example of a proper bedroom level tone - I can't help it, but you were losing it plenty of posts ago already.
Old 4 days ago
  #286
Gear Guru
God I’m glad that jerk is on ignore...

Anyway the Kinks recorded You Really Got Me with “the little green amp” Ray Davies talks about. One of the greatest guitar sounds by a cone stabbed by a knitting needle. I’d love to know what that actually was but you can bet was something cheap and nasty!....
Old 4 days ago
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Anyway the Kinks recorded You Really Got Me with “the little green amp” Ray Davies talks about. One of the greatest guitar sounds by a cone stabbed by a knitting needle. I’d love to know what that actually was but you can bet was something cheap and nasty!....
And all the way bedroom compatible for sure. Yay!
So who's the jerk here?
Old 4 days ago
  #288
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
And all the way bedroom compatible for sure. Yay!
So who's the jerk here?
Cute

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u8CQE3JeLc

Will post some home noodling from my home setup (simplified) tomorrow. In a wardrobe.
Old 4 days ago
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Right, that's certainly something you do in a bedroom. And fwiw, for a better comparison they should've captured an IR of the real cab as it was used.
Besides, even in that A/B test, the HX Stomp is doing pretty well. And I'm wondering how you would get a similar tone out of a Champ behind a mattress...
Old 4 days ago
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
God I’m glad that jerk is on ignore...

Anyway the Kinks recorded You Really Got Me with “the little green amp” Ray Davies talks about. One of the greatest guitar sounds by a cone stabbed by a knitting needle. I’d love to know what that actually was but you can bet was something cheap and nasty!....
That sound is a cranked elpico green amp which had its speaker (6” according to Davies) punctured by davies. Then, he slaved his AC30 to it. There is absolutely nothing about that sound that is bedroom tone and volume. NOTHING! But what do you expect? Rock m Roll is meant to be loud and live outside a bedroom
Old 4 days ago
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
If all we are talking about is a Champ, then 50 bux or less worth of sheet rock and foam in a closet will knock" way too loud" down to a soft spoken conversation level even in the bedroom. Any neighbors complaining about conversation levels of "noise" can kick rocks.
From the book I’m reading by Rod Gervais, you’ll need a lot more than $50 of sheet rock and foam to build, or reinforce, any room that will isolate sound.

It’s certainly an option, but not really the most practical nor most affordable. That’s also probably a separate topic that belongs in the acoustics and soundproofing forum on GS
Old 4 days ago
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
...Again, so far I haven't heard a single example of a nice guitar sound recorded at bedroom levels. Even less so a sound that was actually recorded by you or any of the other analog enthusiasts in this thread.
If that way of recording was so great, how comes none of you folks has anything at hand that us mere losers could listen to in order to become believers
I provided three examples, all analog in an actual bedroom, using amps. If you don’t like those sounds/tones, that’s fair but subjective. But the examples are there.

I’m not an analog purist as I think modelers, cab sims and IR are more versatile than one amp and can sound very good.
Old 4 days ago
  #293
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Right, that's certainly something you do in a bedroom. And fwiw, for a better comparison they should've captured an IR of the real cab as it was used.
Besides, even in that A/B test, the HX Stomp is doing pretty well. And I'm wondering how you would get a similar tone out of a Champ behind a mattress...
Yes, other then a thin, fizzy, flat sound (with no dynamics variation as per the kid in the vid (the one who is not payed to say things)) its doing pretty well
As per the bedroom - i will be using my pre-amp only into the DAW (maybe through a cab simulator) and my .5W or 1W head into a speaker box with a pedal. Using a strat, just to make it thin enough and boring enough to even out the comparison. Will be dry - no grand sounding reverbs to spice things up. In a wardrobe via a ****ty mic and a Mackie pre - cant make it any ****tier than that.
Old 4 days ago
  #294
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Here's a tip for all the "let's just hide a Champ behind a mattress" folks. Something you forgot to mention: It's not just "Layla" that has been recorded at whispering quiet levels. It's also the entire Hendrix discography, most of Led Zeppelin, almost all of Blackmores riffs, at least "High Voltage" and "Let There Be Rock", quite a bit of Nirvana, most of Metallica and certainly pretty much everything of the Foo Fighters which have been recorded in bedrooms, using Fender Champs, an SM57 and a mattress.
I thought it'd be better to get these facts straight.
Old 4 days ago
  #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
From the book I’m reading by Rod Gervais, you’ll need a lot more than $50 of sheet rock and foam to build, or reinforce, any room that will isolate sound.

It’s certainly an option, but not really the most practical nor most affordable. That’s also probably a separate topic that belongs in the acoustics and soundproofing forum on GS
In a closet with a few ****ty old mattresses and clothing hanging overhead you will achieve the separation you need. Not a studio sound but good enough to later drown in hall reverbs (as per the examples supplied by Sascha)
Old 4 days ago
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Yes, other then a thin, fizzy, flat sound (with no dynamics variation as per the kid in the vid (the one who is not payed to say things)) its doing pretty well
Yeah right...

If I was using emoticons, imagine there to be a big facepalm.
Old 4 days ago
  #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
In a closet with a few ****ty old mattresses and clothing hanging overhead you will achieve the separation you need. Not a studio sound but good enough to later drown in hall reverbs (as per the examples supplied by Sascha)
I thought he was kidding. Those Small amps are loud and definitely not in a closet. Haha

Let your tone come out of the closet!
Old 4 days ago
  #298
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Here's a tip for all the "let's just hide a Champ behind a mattress" folks. Something you forgot to mention: It's not just "Layla" that has been recorded at whispering quiet levels. It's also the entire Hendrix discography, most of Led Zeppelin, almost all of Blackmores riffs, at least "High Voltage" and "Let There Be Rock", quite a bit of Nirvana, most of Metallica and certainly pretty much everything of the Foo Fighters which have been recorded in bedrooms, using Fender Champs, an SM57 and a mattress.
I thought it'd be better to get these facts straight.
Well, you are not even in the same ball park with those sounds using the emulators either. BTW, you can use a 100w head into a load stepping the level down to 5W using a suitable speaker even without a cab to achieve sounds close to what you are talking about even in a small closet. Try it, you will be surprised.
Old 4 days ago
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
drown in hall reverbs (as per the examples supplied by Sascha)
Oh, I didn't know you were deaf. My condolences.
Old 4 days ago
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Yeah right...

If I was using emoticons, imagine there to be a big facepalm.
Whatever emoticons make you feel good
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