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Folk strumming acoustic tone Condenser Microphones
Old 1st May 2018
  #241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockabilly69 View Post
Your credibility should have flown out the window when you thought Dylan's guitar was nylon string. It's right there you should have bowed out of this discussion.

I've been recording ac guitars for 40 years, and have owned more and played more ac guitars than I can count. I've also made my living playing ac guitar fulltime for about the last 20 years. The OP clearly is chasing a sound that starts at the guitar, but then finalized in the recording. And if you listen to the very earliest Dylan recordings done on vinyl you can clearly hear what the OP is searching for. By the late sixties I was hanging with many guys that were getting that Dylan sound with both old Martins and Gibsons. And like some have said here, Dylan's guitars typically had very old strings on them. And like many have said the particular era of tone should be a combination of that, along with the smaller bodied guitars he favored at the time. It was not the 8K roll-off you speak of or the compressed tone of you tube. Although to be fair, in those youtube videos it is heightening the roll-off.

The best advice I've read here on attaining the Dylan sound is here (post 18)... Vocal Sound Bob Dylan Album 1962 In this thread you can also clearly see pictures of the omni mic positioned behind the bridge and the slightly down pointed ribbon both are which contributing to the final result.

You can also hear the tone in modern recordings by the Milk Carton Kids with especially Kenneth, the guy that plays his small martin with the cloth up at the headstock...

In this live recording listen to his tone when the capo is at the fifth fret or lower and you will hear the early 60's tone, especially when he lightens his touch with the pic, and conversely as he comes down harder on the pick you hear brightness and the compression of the guitar top.
YouTube
Interesting - there are some pics there I had not seen yet. The series with the RCA 77 appear to be from the first album and the one with the M49 is obviously electric period. The ones I'm most familiar with - with the U47s are second and third album shots.

The one with the small close mic is a Neumann KM56 according to the text, which makes sense - that's an early Neumann SDC somewhat similar to a KM 84 except that it's tube and uses a capsule with a nickle diaphragm, not mylar. The KM56 is untampered condition is quite rare now - I know of one for sale that had the capsule replaced with a KM84, asking about $5,000, IMO too much without the original capsule, although a working AC701K tube goes for over $1,000 used, by itself.

There's some details in that pic (both mics are tilted the wrong way for their pickup patterns) that make me think it's probably staged for a photoshoot, not taken in session, so who knows if those mics were actually used or were just around when the photographer showed up.
Old 1st May 2018
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Anyone who has ever stacked BG vocals or "stolen a double" with a string section knows that good mics hear stuff way higher than we do, and multiple passes of those high harmonics beat. the frequency range of that beating is a lot, lot lower. So low that even I can hear it.
If you're talking about sum and difference tones, it's the difference you hear, but mic's don't "hear" any higher than their designers intend them to.

For those unfamiliar with the phenomenon of sum and difference tones, look it up, it's fascinating - you can hear it readily when bending strings on guitar; dial in some distortion and bend a note up against another drone note (like a b7th up toward the octave unison), you'll hear the "difference tone" a third note going the other way, bending down as you're bending up.

People who make sounds for synthesizers take great advantage of this technique.
Old 1st May 2018
  #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
You're making the typical and totally wrong (and insulting) modern assumption that the recordings of the early '60s were "Lo-Fi". There isa NOTHING "Lo-Fi" about a Telefunken U-47 or 48, an AKG C-12, or an ELA M251. Those are the mics used in nearly all the studio photos I've seen of Dylan in that period.Those mics sell for around $20,000 now, if you can find one.
First, it's not an "assumption"; it's an observation. An assumption is what you are making: that a higher quality microphone inevitably leads to a high fidelity recording. Mic quality but one of many contributing factors.

You also seem to be convinced that this has all to do with what Bob Dylan was recorded on. You might have noticed I mentioned older recordings in general and LeadBelly specifically. I would consider "old folk" to include Pete Seeger , Woodie Guthrie and Lead Belly ,up to early Dylan. I suppose all that was hi-fi too ?

Finally, you seem to not understand that "fidelity" isn't a quality that can be measured scientifically and so debating whether early 60's music as a category was "low-fi" is an exercise in futility . Colloquially, "low fi" is a term typically understood as an inferior signal-to-noise ratio, a limited frequency spectrum, a relative lack loudness and compression, or all of the above. Of course, a single track with some of those qualities does not mean that the overall end result will be "low-fi". The old ribbons (and most new ones, for that matter) might be great mic choices for a single track or several for their character and quality . However, in the sense that they will have an inferior signal-to-noise ratio when placed far away, and usually a reduced frequency spectrum captured, a single track may be low-fi. My only point with the Nady was that by such standards, it will be "low-fi" in comparison to a higher-end mic of a similar character. Whether that's a good thing or bad with the OP is not for me to assume.


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Your Nady is NOT modeled after an AEA R84 (which is a modern mic, anyway) in any way but external cosmetics. It's a cheap-ass Chinese mic with poorly designed guts.
My Nady? I owned that 15-20 years ago and then took it apart trying to replace the parts. It's sitting in box in little pieces last I checked (about 5 years ago). I wouldn't use it even if I had it still. I do still have a Shiny Box 46 MXL with the Lundahl transformer, which is another cheap -ass Chinese mic with the poorly-designed guts replaced. I very rarely use even that. I tend to use my AEA ribbons .

Regardless, you may be right that the numerous reviewers stating the Nady was modeled after an R84 are wrong. If I passed on any misinformation on that front, I apologize. I suspect it was in fact modeled after an RCA 77 (but this is not to be taken as a statement of fact). At any rate, it doesn't re matter. I was speaking to the mic's character, not it's quality. Obviously a $200 Nady won't hold a candle to an R84 or an RCA77 or anything of that caliber. If you go back and read my post, it's pretty clear that I was referring to the Nady's character, not it's quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
There is no "cheap mic" that will come remotely close to the sound the OP is looking for. The most affordable mic I can think of that might be acceptable is the new Warm Audio WA-47, which is their take on a U47 reproduction. I have not had a chance to use one, but initial reports are encouraging as budget mics go - it's only $899 at Sweetwater, which is a lot less than the original which is 20 grand at Vintage King. You DON'T want the "Jr" version, which is an FET mic, not a tube mic. FET "47 style" mics have a harder sound that the tube ones."
"Cheap mic" is entirely relative. If you mean no sub-200 mic will, I agree.

On the other hand, I'd probably take "cheap mic" to mean anything under 1k. An AEA R84 can be had for around the same price used as the Warm you mentioned (under $900). An AEA22 or Shiny Box MXL46) go for about $700 and $450 used, respectively, and are both superb mics . I've seen Coles 4038 go for less than a thousand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
All wrong. The mics used were not "Lo-Fi."
First, I did not say the mics being used at the time were low-fi. I obliquely implied that the the recordings in general were low -fi . And I was not referring to early 60's alone in that generally, but really the four decades of folk music preceding it as well . You might have noticed I mentioned LeadBelly.

Second, again,,there's quite a difference between saying the mic and the recordings produced using it are low-fi.



Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
The mics you're suggesting are all junk and will not work to recreate the sound of those recordings.

First, I would not consider the Oktava -019 or Kel HM2D to be junk.The Oktava 19's(at least if you get the Russian-made variety) can be cheaply modded to be competitive with a much higher-end sdc and are entirely usable even without. The Kel doesn't sound like any other LDC I've heard. Neither will give you the fullness of say , a vintage C12, but both are usable in the right context--especially in a multi-track project where subtle differences between mics aren't going to be that noticeable (I realize that's less true if we're talking about folk specifically).

Seconded, to be clear , I was merely being descriptive, not making mic recommendations. I would not recommend that Nady mic for a professional recording. I would suggest it as a possible entry point of exploration. A large ribbon like the Nady RSM2, with careful mic positioning to include some off-axis response of the guitar, as you and I both rightfully noted previously , is likely to be a move in the right direction to getting the tone he's after. Obviously a higher quality mic is going to be an even better step in that direction, for sure. However, since the OP doesn't know how to get the sound he's after yet, and since a vintage RCA 77 is a bit much to throw money into, experiments with a vastly cheaper alternative might not entirely be out of order. The OP always upgrade to a better quality mic with a similar character down the line. If a cheap Chinese ribbon is to be used , the I would however, for the record, probably go with the ones that upgraded Lundahl transformer,or an AEA, a number of which can easily be had for under $1k.


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
The suggestion that "Lo-Fi" mics were used in professional studios of the time is modern revisionist idiocy perpetrated by people who don't know and were not there. And who obviously have not done any actual research, they're parrotting "innerwebz wizzdom" propagated by fools and people who are pushing cheap junk mics.
I very much doubt such revisionism exists anywhere outside your imagination. Who would be ignorant enough to suggest such things when the most coveted mics of today are decades old and the cheap knockoffs being used today didn't exist at the time?

I also must admit a certain amount of amusement over how you passionately bash a microphone that I was not recommending to begin with (the Nady), only to , in the same breath, imply a microphone that you've never used might be the right tool for the job . By strange coincidence, the same manufacturer (Warm) happens to be extremely popular around these parts, with palpable fanboyism obvious from the users' reactions to Warm's new product announcements. Exactly who is it that is "parrotting 'innerwebz wizzdom'" here, John?

(For the record, this is not a diss against Warm . I own three of their rack units and two get used regularly .)


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
You only have to look up studio photos of the time to KNOW what mics were used. The proof is out there and is incontrovertible.
Of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
RCA 77s ad 44s were in use in a lot of smaller studios and studios outside of NY, LA, Chicago, and Detroit. Ir should be understood that the 77s and 44 were also NOT "lo-fi" mics by any means, although they do tend to sound "warmer" that condensers. You saw RCAs in (then) smaller recording markets like Nashville and in smaller studios attached to radio stations. Again, there's ample photographic evidence. RCA 44s and 77s in good shape current sell in the $3,500 -$4,000 and up range, not as costly as the German tube condensers but not cheap. The RCA 74 "Junior Velocity" ribbon can be had at about a grand or less but it was not considered to be of studio quality - it was an announcer mic and sometimes used in nightclubs.

You did not generally see RCAs in the big studios in NY and, to a lesser extent LA is that RCA sis not sell their gear - they leased it as a package. Studios like Columbia constructed most, if not all of their own electronics and used the best mics from Germany - that would have violated the RCA contract. You saw RCA in studios affiliated with radio stations because RCA had a lock on transmitter technology and stations leased the whole package.
Finally, you have some worthwhile information to share! You know John, I think you're actually probably a decent guy and have lot to contribute,but just aren't the greatest at internet communication. Have you ever considered maybe not treating everyone who says something you find questionable like as if they are a complete idiot? I am not trying to push some junk microphone on anyone. I am not a merchant and I am not selling anything used on ebay. Currently, I am using a custom-made tube mic, which is one of three that exists. I've got a few good ones, a few bad, and tons that are in the running. I don't do this for a living , what what I do do pays a little better than most, and it's allowed me to acquire a lot of shiny toys over the years. So if I say "product x reminds me of this sound" it's just a description based on my experiences, not me trying to dupe anyone , or being duped by someone else. It's just me sharing an observation about sounds. That simple.
Old 1st May 2018
  #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBaaron View Post
I think you're actually probably a decent guy and have lot to contribute,but just aren't the greatest at internet communication. Have you ever considered maybe not treating everyone who says something you find questionable like as if they are a complete idiot?
Lots of those types on this forum. They don't understand how to have an evolving conversation. They are the types who get angry anytime anything doesn't go their way, or people don't do exactly what they would do. They probably scream obscenities at other cars when they're in traffic. They seem miserably offended anytime someone suggests something that they think is incorrect. They think they are squashing the spread of misinformation, but they're really just stroking their own egos. It's an ugly character trait. But I'll take what they have to say that's worth hearing and leave the rest
Old 1st May 2018
  #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
Lots of those types on this forum. They don't understand how to have an evolving conversation. They are the types who get angry anytime anything doesn't go their way, or people don't do exactly what they would do. They probably scream obscenities at other cars when they're in traffic. They seem miserably offended anytime someone suggests something that they think is incorrect. They think they are squashing the spread of misinformation, but they're really just stroking their own egos. It's an ugly character trait. But I'll take what they have to say that's worth hearing and leave the rest
A good description of .... you
Old 1st May 2018
  #246
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Rockabilly69's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
Lots of those types on this forum. They don't understand how to have an evolving conversation. They are the types who get angry anytime anything doesn't go their way, or people don't do exactly what they would do. They probably scream obscenities at other cars when they're in traffic. They seem miserably offended anytime someone suggests something that they think is incorrect. They think they are squashing the spread of misinformation, but they're really just stroking their own egos. It's an ugly character trait. But I'll take what they have to say that's worth hearing and leave the rest


I almost left this forum for this exact reason! But I've learned about alot of gear here, so for me, it's worth sticking it out and sifting thru the chuff.
So let's lighten it up a bit, here's a little strummer that I wrote a few days ago and recorded last night....

You want details? Okay, U89 on all vocals, U87 on 1964 Gibson J45 (rhythm and slide). Acoustic rhythm and lead vocal recorded together. Harmonies and slide overdubbed. Both mics went through a pair of UA LA610 pres

I've been recording demos for a new CD I'm working on...





It's Killin' Me / Weldon 2018

I'm holed up in a flea bag, two-bit motel
two-gigs in a dive bar, just to pay my way home
my old car is broken, on the side of the road
I need the money, for a bus ticket home

I stare out at the bar-room, from the ram shackle stage
two drunks in the corner, starin' right back at me
I sing like they'll listen, but i know they won't
I sing like I mean it, but I know that I don't

how many more times, will it take me to see
that it's killin' my heart, it's killin' my dream
it's killin' me, it's killin' me

my mind it wonders, away from the song
my fingers they fumble, and I miss some chords
I look at the clock on, the side of the stage
and time it's a draggin', with each chord I play

how many more times, will it take me to see
that it's killin' my heart, it's killin' my dream
it's killin' me

how many more times, will it take me to see
that it's killin' my heart, it's killin' my dream
it's killin' me, it's killin' me
Old 1st May 2018
  #247
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
The "vintage" vibe
It’s the guitar. True, there are other factors- but, despite the pages and pages of spurious (bordering on, dare i say, gaslighting ) talk of microphones, coasters (i truly appreciated this plot twist!), and nylon strings, facts are facts; essentially it’s the guitar.

Get yourself a beat up Gibson from the ‘40s/‘50s/‘60s and gunk up the strings with hearty gusto. J-50s are often nice, thicccc, and mellow at a doable price. See the video below and note the tone even while being flatpicked.

Old 1st May 2018
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockabilly69 View Post

I almost left this forum for this exact reason! But I've learned about alot of gear here, so for me, it's worth sticking it out and sifting thru the chuff.
So let's lighten it up a bit, here's a little strummer that I wrote a few days ago and recorded last night....

You want details? Okay, U89 on all vocals, U87 on 1964 Gibson J45 (rhythm and slide). Acoustic rhythm and lead vocal recorded together. Harmonies and slide overdubbed. Both mics went through a pair of UA LA610 pres

I've been recording demos for a new CD I'm working on...





It's Killin' Me / Weldon 2018

I'm holed up in a flea bag, two-bit motel
two-gigs in a dive bar, just to pay my way home
my old car is broken, on the side of the road
I need the money, for a bus ticket home

I stare out at the bar-room, from the ram shackle stage
two drunks in the corner, starin' right back at me
I sing like they'll listen, but i know they won't
I sing like I mean it, but I know that I don't

how many more times, will it take me to see
that it's killin' my heart, it's killin' my dream
it's killin' me, it's killin' me

my mind it wonders, away from the song
my fingers they fumble, and I miss some chords
I look at the clock on, the side of the stage
and time it's a draggin', with each chord I play

how many more times, will it take me to see
that it's killin' my heart, it's killin' my dream
it's killin' me

how many more times, will it take me to see
that it's killin' my heart, it's killin' my dream
it's killin' me, it's killin' me
Thanks man,
Sounds good, a nice honest sound. The J45 sounds great in the rhythm track, really pleasing. Wouldn't mind getting my hands on a U87, one of these days...
Old 1st May 2018
  #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles chocula View Post
It’s the guitar. True, there are other factors- but, despite the pages and pages of spurious (bordering on, dare i say, gaslighting ) talk of microphones, coasters (i truly appreciated this plot twist!), and nylon strings, facts are facts; essentially it’s the guitar.

Get yourself a beat up Gibson from the ‘40s/‘50s/‘60s and gunk up the strings with hearty gusto. J-50s are often nice, thicccc, and mellow at a doable price. See the video below and note the tone even while being flatpicked.


We can't possible know what this guitar sounded like in 1949, when it was new, but here, we get hear it in all its glory, sounding like crap through a camera mic with a TON of audio compression and limiting.

He's selling nostalgia, not tone, not in that clip.
Old 1st May 2018
  #250
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Rockabilly69's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
Thanks man,
Sounds good, a nice honest sound. The J45 sounds great in the rhythm track, really pleasing. Wouldn't mind getting my hands on a U87, one of these days...
Thank you, I remember that you said you had a 610 preamp so that’s why I used my LA 610s! Although many people rag on the newer 87Ai I’ve had both, and I love the new Ai version. I love setting it up in tandem with the u89 on my vocals. Both mics bleed into each other and it’s a pretty cool sound.
Old 1st May 2018
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles chocula View Post
It’s the guitar. True, there are other factors- but, despite the pages and pages of spurious (bordering on, dare i say, gaslighting ) talk of microphones, coasters (i truly appreciated this plot twist!), and nylon strings, facts are facts; essentially it’s the guitar.

Get yourself a beat up Gibson from the ‘40s/‘50s/‘60s and gunk up the strings with hearty gusto. J-50s are often nice, thicccc, and mellow at a doable price. See the video below and note the tone even while being flatpicked.

Thanks Charles,
Nice to have another vote for the guitar. I look at it like this: A microphone captures sound in a similar way to how a camera captures an image. Now, I can use lighting, different lenses and different settings on my camera to achieve certain effects. But that will never change the subject of the image, the thing I'm taking a picture of. And no matter how light or dark, how focused, how exposed the image is, one can still see the subject is the same. Same thing with the guitar - doesn't matter how you record it, it will still be the same sounding guitar. You might get more picking or more string vibe, or more bottom end or more or less proximity, but it's still the same guitar, and relatively the same tone. Couldn't get that point across to the folks talking about mics and recording techniques, although the advice is appreciated and documented so it is what it is I guess.

I mentioned earlier that my Yamaha FG-300 (1969) is pretty close, but not quite there. It's definitely more "vintage" sounding than my D-28. I've wanted a LG-1 for a long time, but the j-50s are certainly nice. Only thing I disagree with you about is the strings - you can't discount them, they are a part of the guitar and can effect the tone, sustain, etc. considerably. You agree?

Thanks again!
Old 1st May 2018
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockabilly69 View Post
Thank you, I remember that you said you had a 610 preamp so that’s why I used my LA 610s! Although many people rag on the newer 87Ai I’ve had both, and I love the new Ai version. I love setting it up in tandem with the u89 on my vocals. Both mics bleed into each other and it’s a pretty cool sound.
Yeah, I love the 610! I'm a big fan of UA products. Thanks again
Old 1st May 2018
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
... but here, we get hear it in all its glory, sounding like crap through a camera mic with a TON of audio compression and limiting.
And those strings are ultra-brand new. Very crashy, not flattering.

Also interesting that his left hand never gets higher than the third fret. Sometimes what they leave out tells you a lot.
Old 1st May 2018
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
We can't possible know what this guitar sounded like in 1949, when it was new, but here, we get hear it in all its glory, sounding like crap through a camera mic with a TON of audio compression and limiting.

He's selling nostalgia, not tone, not in that clip.
We can agree on this - I cringe when I hear strumming compressed like that.
Old 1st May 2018
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
And those strings are ultra-brand new. Very crashy, not flattering.

Also interesting that his left hand never gets higher than the third fret. Sometimes what they leave out tells you a lot.
Agreed - goes back to my point that older strings are part of the sound I'm talking about. Maybe not years old, but JE proposed that guys recording in the big time would have strings that are no more than 3-4 days old. I think that's false, and personally I put strings on at least a week before I go to record to let them settle in. To each their own, but I don't think it's a sin to record old strings, maybe even get a little flutter in the intonation, it's all texture as far as I'm concerned.
Old 1st May 2018
  #256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
We can't possible know what this guitar sounded like in 1949, when it was new, but here, we get hear it in all its glory, sounding like crap through a camera mic with a TON of audio compression and limiting.

He's selling nostalgia, not tone, not in that clip.
The mind is so subjective that one completely misses the subject.
Old 1st May 2018
  #257
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
the strings - you can't discount them, they are a part of the guitar and can effect the tone, sustain, etc. considerably. You agree?

Thanks again!
I do not discount them- in fact, those (as well) are not what they once upon a time were.
Old 1st May 2018
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post

Also interesting that his left hand never gets higher than the third fret. Sometimes what they leave out tells you a lot.
Exactly!
Old 1st May 2018
  #259
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
We can agree on this - I cringe when I hear strumming compressed like that.
I consider the video to be a nice example of “it’s the guitar”. I personally despise new strings. In fact, I’d eat my hat if those are aged nylon strings, muted by a miller lite bro-coaster, recorded with a vintage RCA ribbon.

I am confident I know exactly what you’re looking for- and I have played many, many guitars; personal experience says you will find it in a not-too-outrageously-expensive vintage post-war Gibson J/SJ/CW.
Attached Thumbnails
Folk strumming acoustic tone-bob-dylan-musicares-speech-2016-billboard-1548.jpg  
Old 1st May 2018
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles chocula View Post
I consider the video to be a nice example of “it’s the guitar”. I personally despise new strings. In fact, I’d eat my hat if those are aged nylon strings, muted by a miller lite bro-coaster, recorded with a vintage RCA ribbon.

I am confident I know exactly what you’re looking for- and I have played many, many guitars; personal experience says you will find it in a not-too-outrageously-expensive vintage post-war Gibson J/SJ/CW.
Thanks. Yeah, ideally a pre-war Martin or Gibson would take care of the guitar component. This thread started off as "how can I make my old Yamaha or new Martin sound a little more like those folk revivalists." It has gone down many roads since then, all with good and bad advice. I don't remember seeing anything about a coaster, but I'm not above trying it if it's worked for someone - there are a lot of stories about old folk and country guys doing weird DIY things to their guitars to get a certain sound. Not saying that will go further than buying a pre-war Gibson, but it's more realistic for me because a) don't have 10 grand to spend on a guitar and b) I mentioned before - old guitars are old, they have all kinds of problems, and unless you have a trustworthy luthier, in my experience you'll never get them to play right. So I have to consider 10 grand plus expenses getting the thing set up to play, plus time and travel and effort. Anyway, would love to have one, but maybe a new set of strings and a coaster are more realistic in the short term
Old 1st May 2018
  #261
Old 1st May 2018
  #262
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
spend on a guitar
You can get exactly what you’re looking for from a 1960s J-50 at a cost of 1000usd. You must simply make it your goal while exerting due diligence. They are out there (you are American, yes?).
Old 1st May 2018
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
That's an 016NY -- it's looks normal-size on her, so she must be a tiny thing.

Trouble with those is they don't really speak on the low notes, as you can hear in this recording. Where her thumb is supposed to be playing a "bummmm" it comes out like more of a "dint." And between the superwide fingerboard and the short scale, not my favorite strummer. Also, you can't really hear it here, but those guitars are feather-light and X-braced -- voiced for bluegrass, really. I don't think it'd be OP's cuppa tea at all.
Old 1st May 2018
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
That's an 016NY -- it's looks normal-size on her, so she must be a tiny thing.

Trouble with those is they don't really speak on the low notes, as you can hear in this recording. Where her thumb is supposed to be playing a "bummmm" it comes out like more of a "dint." And between the superwide fingerboard and the short scale, not my favorite strummer. Also, you can't really hear it here, but those guitars are feather-light and X-braced -- voiced for bluegrass, really. I don't think it'd be OP's cuppa tea at all.
Yeah- you're right about the guitar. I was talking mostly about the recording. Pure.

For the OP's guitar question, I'd point to: an 00-15 or an LG0 (hog tops).

I just listened to Bob's first record and isolated the 2 tracks via Apogee control- a very cool way to listen to each mic on its own. It's revealing...the guitar sound is very attainable. And the isolation is amazingly good between the mics- I think that's a big part of what we're hearing.
Old 1st May 2018
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBaaron View Post
The early 70's lawsuit Taks are really nice instruments if you find the right one. Guy I bought my collection from was very choosy and said he skipped over 9 for every one. The necks on them are all perfect by my standards. I'll be honest in saying that the tone of the all-mahogany one is typically not my favorite of the bunch--just too mellow when it comes time to record. Probably I like the fake D18 best. I forget the model number ,but it's the same one, used by Townes Van Zandt. Or maybe the smaller parlor, which sounds a lot like the but unfortunately is out on loan. The blonde maple one is really nice too . The D28 wannabe is probably after that, but very close. Then the dark brown all-mahogany.

There are slight variations to those old Taks with the woods--some are all wood some have laminate sides and just a solid wood top or vice versa . At least with the ones I own, you'd probably never know which is which unless you looked it up. I easily prefer them to the newer Martins I play out in stores, for whatever that's worth. Probably not a fair comparison since the woods haven't aged yet on the Martins. But I don't think the laminate thing is always a deal breaker. Hell my 1960 Gibson ES-175 is a laminate, but every guitar player who's ever picked it up in my presence has had a hard time putting it down. Something about how old wood ages. Whether the tone you hear acoustically really comes out in the recording is another matter, and depends on a million and one factors in the recording chain.

I gotta do a grocery run but later tonight or tomorrow, I'll see what I can cook up and if I'm able to convincingly close to what I think you're after, I'll post some files for you....
Steve, I couldn't quite nail the chicken pluck thing without my Re-20, which has scampered off somewhere or is lost in this mess. I found the HM2D ("junk") mic and did a one track singing and playing at the same time...if you can call it that...I'm beyond rusty. Anyways, is this anywhere near the chicken cluck you heard in your head? It's like maybe 20-40% the guitar tone I was trying to get. This is the all mahogany with a health mids boost and some tape saturation effects.

Last edited by RedBaaron; 15th May 2018 at 05:41 AM..
Old 1st May 2018
  #266
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TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
We can't possible know what this guitar sounded like in 1949, when it was new, but here, we get hear it in all its glory, sounding like crap through a camera mic with a TON of audio compression and limiting.

He's selling nostalgia, not tone, not in that clip.
Great post. Yep, I don't think anyone can argue that this is Not the sound the OP is after. That is the sound of Dylan's guitar.
Old 2nd May 2018
  #267
Gear Maniac
 

It's funny how that early Dylan sounds better (IMO) than a lot of modern recordings.
Old 2nd May 2018
  #268
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles chocula View Post
You can get exactly what you’re looking for from a 1960s J-50 at a cost of 1000usd. You must simply make it your goal while exerting due diligence. They are out there (you are American, yes?).
Yeah, I have seen them from the 60s around $1200, but that wouldn't exactly be pre-war era I'll look into it though, the J-50 and LG-1 are both on my wishlist. Thanks!
Old 2nd May 2018
  #269
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBaaron View Post
Steve, I couldn't quite nail the chicken pluck thing without my Re-20, which has scampered off somewhere or is lost in this mess. I found the HM2D ("junk") mic and did a one track singing and playing at the same time...if you can call it that...I'm beyond rusty. Anyways, is this anywhere near the chicken cluck you heard in your head? It's like maybe 20-40% the guitar tone I was trying to get. This is the all mahogany with a health mids boost and some tape saturation effects.
Thanks for putting that together Red! Yeah, I like the tone of the Mahogany. As you say, not exactly where I'm trying to get, but in the right direction. Bonus points for opening with a Cohen song I really like the one-mic technique, I have been playing around with it a lot lately - but I find that I have more control over the guitar tone if I mic it - I've had some success with the mic pointed at the bridge, as opposed to the old faithful 12th fret position. I have a Shure KSM313 on loan that I'm going to experiment with a bit for vocals, maybe try some one-mic technique with it. Thanks again!
Old 27th May 2018
  #270
Gear Addict
 

Hi all,
Just wanted to leave an update on this thread. I've been experimenting with a lot of the advice I got on here, and have had some good results re: strings and acoustic guitar choice...

1) I have found that coated strings are working better for folk strumming, particularly the D'addario EXP's (I use mediums), as I find them to be less harsh/bright than the Elixir's, especially when first applied. After a few days when they settle down they have a great tone and playability on a number of my acoustics. So glad I tried the EXP's - a great way to get closer to the tone of "old strings" without having to play rusty strings

2) I picked up an Alvarez Yairi (DY94), sort of on a whim, and have been pretty happy with the sound of that guitar for folk strumming (which is surprising because I had read a review of a guy who felt it was better for fingerpicking). Anyway, for a newer (2004) dreadnought it has a more "plucky" sound to it. It doesn't have the bass and power of a Martin dread, but for this purpose that is a good thing. I think the Mahogany back/sides give it a bit warmer/subdued tone, but it still cuts enough in the mid-range to be a good strummer. Incidentally, the Alvarez has the most comfortable neck I've played vs. Gibson/Martin/Guild/Yamaha/etc. Speaking of Yamaha, the FG-300 I have also sounds pretty close to the Dylanesque folk strumming, and has also benefited from a set of the D'addario EXP17s. It too has a great resonant tone, but not the power/bass of a Martin or Gibson. I'm starting to wonder if that's just a Japanese thing? Maybe they don't go for boomy/bassy acoustics there? Maybe not, because my Yamaha 336SB (laminate mind you) still has more punch than any Martin I've played. Anyway, when selecting a dreadnought for this purpose, I think it's better to have something that isn't quite so boomy.

Still have yet to get a smaller body acoustic, but it's on my list. Maybe one of those LG-1s I've been looking at.

In conclusion:

2 ways I've found to get closer to this tone, but without having to shell out for vintage equipment and having to deal with the issues of an older guitar are 1) Coated strings and 2) A modern acoustic that fits the bill (in this case an Alvarez Yairi DY94)

Hope that helps someone searching for a sound. Now off to experiment with some recordings will post soon. Thanks!
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