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Folk strumming acoustic tone Condenser Microphones
Old 24th April 2018
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
To be clear, trying to alter the sound of the guitar, not my recordings. My recordings are fine, I have plenty of mics to choose from and a treated room. The mics can only pick up what sound is coming out of the guitar - need to get it right at the source.

Having said that - not sure what this unit would do for me? Just looks like a way to plug multiple mics in? How would this effect the sound?

thanks
It's a mic preamp. If you want the sound of old folk, this will get you closer. They used these at Woodstock. Thing has very colourful sounding transformers in it. Take some unwelcome gloss off your new Martin.
Old 24th April 2018
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
Exactly, I have to agree with you Peller - I've been toying with the idea of trading up one of my dreadnoughts for a parlor - I feel like it might help give me the attack I'm looking for. Also, I have small hands so might be a good option. I dunno, I always miss the volume/presence of a dread when I'm playing a parlor, but might be nice to have one of each around the house. Thanks!
A good parlor is a pretty loud thing.
Old 24th April 2018
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
From what I've read in your posts, I think flatwounds just might make a whole lotta of difference for ya.
As for the thumb thang, it all depends upon quite a few things: How is your thumb built? How hard is your thumbnail? Etc.

In order to independently use the thumb for anything but 'the fleshy sound', some folks need a thumb-pick (which makes it hard to get 'the fleshy sound' when ya want it).

...But one thing is for sure: You can get pretty close to a "pick sound" with your nails, but you can't really get a 'flesh sound' with a pick.

...And with a bit of practice, you can also learn to vary the "pickyness-to-fleshiness ratio" on a moment-to-moment basis "on the fly".

Myself, I will often use a pick, but its mostly so I can keep my nails from wearing away.

(I happen to be one of those who when I use a pick, I feel like I'm wearing 7 condoms on my right hand!)
.
Haha, I know what you mean about condoms - in both instances they just don't feel right
The more I fingerpick the less I like using a pick - but yeah, not sure that my thumb will ever be up for folk picking like Dylan does in those first 3 records, with a pick I'm sure. I tried a thumb pick a while back, didn't like the feel of it at all.
I can use my thumb and fingers for softer stuff, but not the harder staccato strumming. I dunno, maybe I'll try growing my nails again - just don't like having long nails, but I'm willing to sacrifice for the good of the song
Old 24th April 2018
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
They used these at Woodstock.
That's because they didn't have a lotta money for a "real" board.

The M67 was not a pre-amp, but rather a cheap-ass mixer.

Eddie Kramer and the boys cobbled together a buncha crap, then Eddie basically "pulled it outta his ass".

It wasn't like they chose the M67 for its sound; its just the only way they could get enough channels to do the show and record it with the money they had.

It was only by the grace of God (and Eddie's talent) that the tapes were even usable.

Chasing the "Sound of Woodstock" by using Shure mixers is a lot like chasing the "Sound of Miles Davis" by shooting heroin.
.
Old 24th April 2018
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardis View Post
You might try a nylon pick and a heavier gauge. Nails are much more mellow. I like a light pick so will actually hold the pick so I'm playing with one of the top corners rather than the sharp end, sorta sideways. Mellows out the strum and gets rid of the clickyness. For recording I'd always go with nails......Elderly Music in chicago carries a bunch of different folk/bluegrass strings and are good people......
I am currently using nylon picks. I was at .73, then went up to .81, now I have a medium guage Fred Kelly picks, which have a pretty soft sound, very nice picks - not sure what guage the medium is, I guess it's somewhere .80-.90 -- I'm considering going even thicker, because even though it seems counter-intuitive, I'm finding that the thicker the pick, the better tone I can get even when doing fast staccato strumming - just have to change my technique. Anyway, I'll give the other sides of the pick a try. I love Elderly, used to buy John Pearse strings from them for my LG-0. Thanks!
Old 24th April 2018
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
That's because they didn't have a lotta money for a "real" board.

The M67 was not a pre-amp, but rather a cheap-ass mixer.

Eddie Kramer and the boys cobbled together a buncha crap, then Eddie basically "pulled it outta his ass".

It wasn't like they chose the M67 for its sound; its just the only way they could get enough channels to do the show and record it.

It was only by the grace of God (and Eddie's talent) that the tapes were even usable.

Chasing the "Sound of Woodstock" by using Shure mixers is a lot like chasing the sound of Miles Davis by shooting heroin.
.
Whatever. Of course they used them because that's what they had. So what. They also have great tone transformers in them that make things sound old in a cool way. And if you are chasing old tone, these things are fun. Especially if you are moaning that your new tools are sounding too new.

Miles Davis? Heroin? I think you gave way a bit there and just let the ego roll freely....lol Only trying to help the man.
Old 24th April 2018
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Whatever. Of course they used them because that's what they had. So what. They also have great tone transformers in them that make things sound old in a cool way. And if you are chasing old tone, these things are fun. Especially if you are moaning that your new tools are sounding too new.

Miles Davis? Heroin? I think you gave way a bit there and just let the ego roll freely....lol Only trying to help the man.
Are you suggesting that somehow the choice of a transformer will make more difference than would the choice of a guitar?

...Or the strings?

...Or whether we use a pick/fingers/nails?
...I mean, don't get me wrong; those old Shure mixers were actually pretty good (and pulled my ass out of a sling many a time), but...
.

Last edited by 12ax7; 24th April 2018 at 07:48 PM.. Reason: I kant spel
Old 24th April 2018
  #68
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
Listen to a pre-war Martin next to a new Martin and you'll see that it isn't just the recording. Anyone with a discerning ear can take into account what is happening in the recording and still draw a conclusion that these guitars sounded different back then. It's the guitar, strings, player, etc.

Having said that - you're right, I don't expect my modern D-28 to sound like a pre-war parlor guitar, because even Martin is making their instruments sound brighter for a modern-minded consumer. And yes, I'm not going to hear myself through a 1950s recording (by the way, I don't agree with your lo-fi statement, that Dylan video has some pretty hi-fi mics on him). All I'm asking is for ideas/ways to dampen the sustain and brightness of the guitar I have. That has nothing to do with the recording process. Thanks for your input.
One should not discount the affects of age and playing on a given guitar.

I have an approximately 45 year old 'lower end' (G130a) Yamaha classical that has a rich, warm sound that has really deepened over the decades. (I bought it used in '74.) Now, for sure, today's Yamahas designed for the same price point would definitely use different wood and possibly different construction; my Yamaha has solid rosewood back and sides.
Old 24th April 2018
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Are you suggesting that somehow the choice of a transformer will make more difference than would the choice of a guitar?

...Or the strings?

...Or whether we use a pick/fingers/nails?
...I mean, don't get me wrong; those old Shure mixers were actually pretty good (and pulled my ass out of a sling many a time), but...
.
If you had read my previous posts in this thread you wouldn't have asked that.
Old 24th April 2018
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
One should not discount the affects of age and playing on a given guitar.

I have an approximately 45 year old 'lower end' (G130a) Yamaha classical that has a rich, warm sound that has really deepened over the decades. (I bought it used in '74.) Now, for sure, today's Yamahas designed for the same price point would definitely use different wood and possibly different construction; my Yamaha has solid rosewood back and sides.
Indeed. New acoustics suck for rootsy vibes.
Old 24th April 2018
  #71
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
That's because they didn't have a lotta money for a "real" board.

The M67 was not a pre-amp, but rather a cheap-ass mixer.

Eddie Kramer and the boys cobbled together a buncha crap, then Eddie basically "pulled it outta his ass".

It wasn't like they chose the M67 for its sound; its just the only way they could get enough channels to do the show and record it with the money they had.

It was only by the grace of God (and Eddie's talent) that the tapes were even usable.

Chasing the "Sound of Woodstock" by using Shure mixers is a lot like chasing the "Sound of Miles Davis" by shooting heroin.
.
Haha, yeah, don't worry - I think I'll stick with my solo 610 over that - has a pretty "vintage" vibe and much better quality
Old 24th April 2018
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
One should not discount the affects of age and playing on a given guitar.

I have an approximately 45 year old 'lower end' (G130a) Yamaha classical that has a rich, warm sound that has really deepened over the decades. (I bought it used in '74.) Now, for sure, today's Yamahas designed for the same price point would definitely use different wood and possibly different construction; my Yamaha has solid rosewood back and sides.
Remember guys, I have a 1969 Yamaha FG-300 - I mentioned numerous times that it's much closer to the sound I'm searching for. The new Martin has it's place, and is superior in many ways to the Yammy, but yeah, can't wait 'til it's 50 years old
Old 24th April 2018
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
If you had read my previous posts in this thread you wouldn't have asked that.
I had already read them all when I posted that (and then I just read them again).

I'm not really arguing with you (exactly), but I still think that looking to Shure mixers to get an "'old folk sound" is every bit as much of a "red herring" as would be shooting heroin in the pursuit of the "sound of Miles".
(...Maybe a less extreme example, but, still...)
.
Old 24th April 2018
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Indeed. New acoustics suck for rootsy vibes.
Realizing that with the new Martin, although I do love that guitar - has a fairly dark sound for a new acoustic, and the best I could find from the big brands for the style I play. Problem with old guitars is... well... they're old lol I live in a fairly sizeable college town, and there are only 2 luthiers here and they both suck. So when I buy an old guitar, and of course the seller will say that it's in perfect condition and setup and ready to go, I will inevitably have to take it to some curmudgeonly luthier who will not listen to what I want and give me the guitar back in worse shape than it was before. So... one has to consider that if you don't know a good, trustworthy luthier, or have the tools and equipment to work on guitars, whether buying vintage is a practical option. Especially going back to these pre-war Martins that are approaching 100 years old. No getting around it, they're gonna need work done.
Old 24th April 2018
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal_SINE View Post
I never used a FF but low end stuff like focusrite or Beringer can really enhance the metallic sound of acoustic guitars and cymbals.

...
Complete Bullsh**. Simply BS. No argument needed.
Old 24th April 2018
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
I had already read them all when I posted that (and then I just read them again).

I'm not really arguing with you (exactly), but I still think that looking to Shure mixers to get an "'old folk sound" is every bit as much of a "red herring" as would be shooting heroin in the pursuit of the "sound of Miles".
(...Maybe a less extreme example, but, still...)
.
I think heroin will give you a better sound than an old junky shure mixer - maybe shoot the heroin before listening back to what you tracked on said old junky shure mixer?
Old 24th April 2018
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
I had already read them all when I posted that (and then I just read them again).

I'm not really arguing with you (exactly), but I still think that looking to Shure mixers to get an "'old folk sound" is every bit as much of a "red herring" as would be shooting heroin in the pursuit of the "sound of Miles".
(...Maybe a less extreme example, but, still...)
.
Well, then we just disagree. All good.

And OP, I thought you wanted to sound like old Dylan recordings. Not much 'better quality' about those, but you know, do what you need to do and good luck, I'm out.
Old 24th April 2018
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe View Post
Complete Bullsh**. Simply BS. No argument needed.
Reminds me of a thread I started on here a while back asking if getting a better converter would help my recordings sound better. I was lambasted and lampooned, and learned a lot
Old 24th April 2018
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
I think heroin will give you a better sound than an old junky shure mixer - maybe shoot the heroin before listening back to what you tracked on said old junky shure mixer?
Let me guess, you haven't tried one, have you? Keep laughing in ignorance then. As I said, I'm done here.
Old 24th April 2018
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Well, then we just disagree. All good.

And OP, I thought you wanted to sound like old Dylan recordings. Not much 'better quality' about those, but you know, do what you need to do and good luck, I'm out.
He's playing on a $10,000 guitar into probably $20,000 worth of microphones - I don't see what's so low-quality about it. Even in those first 3 albums, I would bet there's at least $50,000 in the signal chain. I mean, I see what you're saying, and it's worth experimenting - if I had something like that shure laying around I might try it, but why would I do that when I have a UA Solo 610 and a Daking mic pre? I can dirty those up and make them sound "lo-fi" if I want, and I'm getter a better signal, so it makes sense to stick with that. Again, we're talking guitar tone here and not so much recording process. But thanks so much for all your comments, it's all very helpful. Don't go away mad
Old 24th April 2018
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
I think heroin will give you a better sound than an old junky shure mixer - maybe shoot the heroin before listening back to what you tracked on said old junky shure mixer?
You may be right!

...Or maybe both at the same time?
(Isn't that how John Belushi died?)
.
Old 24th April 2018
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Well, then we just disagree. All good.

And OP, I thought you wanted to sound like old Dylan recordings. Not much 'better quality' about those, but you know, do what you need to do and good luck, I'm out.
I'm not sure we actually "disagree" (per se).

I just think you should re-read the OP:

He was asking about how to get a guitar sound (not about how to capture it).

...And it was posted on a GUITAR sub-forum (not a sub-forum about "recording" gear).
.
Old 24th April 2018
  #83
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In all fairness the Shure mixer comment to me, wasn't about gear "quality", as having a specific sound. Some people have said certain Neve gear is garbage when opened up, but sounds great. I was talking on another thread about rebuilding a Argonne Big Walter mic with a ceramic capsule, that is garbage sonically, but heaven on a blues harp.

I think we're talking sound here, and the 60's sound might be also a RIAA curve, vinyl, tape and a bunch of other things that probably depending on who you ask, degraded the sound. An old Shure mixer seems quite at home in that landscape!... To me, you want a great pure acoustic guitar sound, listen to John Renbourne. That ain't like these samples. Recording gear, room, and mic position and choice, really will do more than just the guitar.....
Old 24th April 2018
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardis View Post
In all fairness the Shure mixer comment to me, wasn't about gear "quality", as having a specific sound. Some people have said certain Neve gear is garbage when opened up, but sounds great. I was talking on another thread about rebuilding a Argonne Big Walter mic with a ceramic capsule, that is garbage sonically, but heaven on a blues harp.

I think we're talking sound here, and the 60's sound might be also a RIAA curve, vinyl, tape and a bunch of other things that probably depending on who you ask, degraded the sound. An old Shure mixer seems quite at home in that landscape!... To me, you want a great pure acoustic guitar sound, listen to John Renbourne. That ain't like these samples. Recording gear, room, and mic position and choice, really will do more than just the guitar.....
I agree with most everything you say in this post.

...But again, this is a GUITAR sub-forum. It's not (primarily) a forum about this sorta thing.

...Furthermore, the OP was asking about how to make a GUITAR sound a certain way (not about how to mic/record it).
(Why does this seem to be so hard to understand?)
.
Old 24th April 2018
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
Why didn't you guys tell me about flatwound strings :D Seriously, I've never tried them, sounds like they might possibly get me closer to the sound I'm looking for. Gonna try the Martin Retros as well as recommended
Don't bother with the Martin Retro's. I recently tried them and feel like the marketing is a gimmick. I let them settle down for a few weeks but they just don't sound good.

The only way to get the softer sound of old strings is to use old strings.

My favorite "flatwounds" are Thomastik Infeld Plectrums. The A, D and G are flatwound. These strings have such a balanced and mellow sound. Love them and have been using them for about 2 years. Worth the extra money 100%.

I play with skin more often than not and have gotten to the point where I don't care for using a pick. Some things call for it, but...

There is a modern acoustic guitar made in the USA by Guild that has that classic Guild "dead and woody" sound that is "vintage" in vibe. The new Guild M20 was designed specifically to bring back that Nick Drake sound of the original. IMO they did a great job.

You said yourself, you want to attack this at the source and I agree with you. Which means...its all about the guitar.
Old 24th April 2018
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
I agree with most everything you say in this post.

...But again, this is a GUITAR sub-forum. It's not (primarily) a forum about this sorta thing.

...Furthermore, the OP was asking about how to make a GUITAR sound a certain way (not about how to mic/record it).
(Why does this seem to be so hard to understand?)
.
Maybe because he's talking about how to capture a specific sound? Honestly a pedal or amp which people go on about in The Guitar Forum, impact the sound.

How you record an acoustic does the same thing. A mic is your pickup and preamp is a preamp........ Hell people talk about how to mic cabinets here, and what pedal to use, so I do think relevant, for acoustic (but I'lll go away now!.....)
Old 24th April 2018
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
I agree with most everything you say in this post.

...But again, this is a GUITAR sub-forum. It's not (primarily) a forum about this sorta thing.

...Furthermore, the OP was asking about how to make a GUITAR sound a certain way (not about how to mic/record it).
(Why does this seem to be so hard to understand?)
.
Could be because he listed his preamps and mics. Maybe. Sort of seems like he is after recordings that sound like old folk, not just a guitar that does. But what do I know.
Old 24th April 2018
  #88
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieD009 View Post
Remember guys, I have a 1969 Yamaha FG-300 - I mentioned numerous times that it's much closer to the sound I'm searching for. The new Martin has it's place, and is superior in many ways to the Yammy, but yeah, can't wait 'til it's 50 years old
Yeah... my Yamaha has got a serious case of finger scallops and the action is not exactly slinky. I shudder to consider, but it was once my beach guitar. It was too cheap when I bought it used. It was only when I got serious about fingerpicking that I realized what a treasure it is.

Like you, I can't wait until the relatively inexpensive Manuel Rodriguez y Higos Spanish style I bought new a couple years ago (with an online store credit I had to use) has aged similarly. I'll be 106... or so. It plays pretty good now, though, and there's merit in that.
Old 24th April 2018
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Could be because he listed his preamps and mics.
[...]
Where in the OP is this list (I don't see it).
.
Old 24th April 2018
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
I agree with most everything you say in this post.

...But again, this is a GUITAR sub-forum. It's not (primarily) a forum about this sorta thing.

...Furthermore, the OP was asking about how to make a GUITAR sound a certain way (not about how to mic/record it).
(Why does this seem to be so hard to understand?)
.
Thank you 12ax7,
I've tried to articulate this numerous times - folks get stuck on the recording so easily around here. Doesn't matter if it's a pro studio track or home bootlegs from that era, you can still tell that it is the guitar that sounds different. Like I said, anyone who knows recording can account for the recording itself - there's some good advice on recording to be had here, but thanks for helping to keep things on track with the original post.
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