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Side sound holes in acoustic guitars, yay or nay? Modular Synthesizers
View Poll Results: Side Sound Hole, Yay Or Nay?
Side sound hole good!
2 Votes - 50.00%
Side sound hole bad!
2 Votes - 50.00%
Voters: 4. You may not vote on this poll

Old 6th March 2018
  #31
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

My neighbor has a really nice custom Michaud acoustic with a “players hole” on the side. It definitely works. Doesn’t sound wooffy at all. Plenty of highs come out, and it sounds really good when playing. Just don’t see the need personally, as I always track acoustic while monitoring through cans.

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Old 6th March 2018
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Its just a hypothesis John. I think the problem is that you have misapplied it without checking it out for yourself.

The number ONE principle of Conservatism is this. FATHER knows best.
EVERYTHING Science stands for is a rejection of Conservatism.

So, the principle here is that just because an eminent Scientist say's something is true you just don' go, wow, he's an eminent Scientist so it must be true. In Science you have a DUTY to test everything for yourself if you can. For us mortals it means that we need to keep our minds open and we won't start another World War if someone dishonours our beliefs

This doesn't have to be as hard as you are making it John. Side-ports are balanced enough and loud enough to work as great monitors. If I'm recording or amplifying the instrument I'm still going to place the microphone out the front. I won't EDIT:nessecarily use the side-port without testing for recording.
It's not a hypothesis. The principles I'm talking about are well known and have been for over a century.

You can put the port wherever you want. People do it with speakers all the time. What doesn't change is that the port still functions as a port and ports don't deliver balanced, full range sound. That's just physics. If you believe otherwise you're just deluding yourself. Yes, you'll probably get some reflection of the upper range out the port, but the function of the port itself is to augment the low end. That's what ports do.

Sheesh!

Did you bother to read the article?

Probably not.
Old 6th March 2018
  #33
The poll needs another answer - 3. side sound hole - silly.

Not "good" of "bad", just silly.

Might be useful when you drop your pick into the guitar...
Old 6th March 2018
  #34

All this resistance based on a slice of theory.... missing the point that an empirical approach would be to go play a few high-end guitars with the side-port.

But, who would want to go play nice guitars?



-tINY


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Old 6th March 2018
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
It's not a hypothesis. The principles I'm talking about are well known and have been for over a century.

You can put the port wherever you want. People do it with speakers all the time. What doesn't change is that the port still functions as a port and ports don't deliver balanced, full range sound. That's just physics. If you believe otherwise you're just deluding yourself. Yes, you'll probably get some reflection of the upper range out the port, but the function of the port itself is to augment the low end. That's what ports do.

Sheesh!

Did you bother to read the article?

Probably not.
The problem John is that you have misapplied your principle/theory and are convinced that you are right.

A fundamental principle of Science is that everything is up for testing yet your just happy to ignore anyone who has tested guitars with side -ports and just stick with your own beliefs.

If you got out your measuring microphones and used some measuring software then you might measure some differences and honestly I'm not claiming that you should automatically record guitars with side-ports from the position of the side-port but from the point of view of helping the player hear themselves they work great and are reasonably balanced.

This is ALL that anyone who supports side-ports has claimed.
Old 7th March 2018
  #36
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
The problem John is that you have misapplied your principle/theory and are convinced that you are right.

A fundamental principle of Science is that everything is up for testing yet your just happy to ignore anyone who has tested guitars with side -ports and just stick with your own beliefs.

If you got out your measuring microphones and used some measuring software then you might measure some differences and honestly I'm not claiming that you should automatically record guitars with side-ports from the position of the side-port but from the point of view of helping the player hear themselves they work great and are reasonably balanced.

This is ALL that anyone who supports side-ports has claimed.
I think they would suck when recording a singer/songwriter type. The bleed from that hole would be a pain in the butt...
Old 7th March 2018
  #37
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enorbet2's Avatar
Actually, a port, whether for an acoustic guitar or a speaker cabinet, is an effort (assuming the designer understands the properties of the vibrating source, whether paper, hemp, aluminum, wood or carbon fiber) is to provide a tuned environment in which the vibrating "Prime Mover" operates to enhance response, most commonly and efficiently, Bass Response. FWIW it is actually uncommon that guitars are so painstakingly tuned as cabinets are. One of the reasons for that is with natural products, even as specific as Sitka Spruce, the range of variation is considerable, unlike manufactured products like speakers and carbon fiber.

FWIW the most successful "copies" of The Stradivarius violin, sound wise, have been accomplished with so-called synthetic materials. Just ask Isaac Stern, or rather read what he (and other aficionados) had to say since he died in 2001 and I only got to see him perform twice in my life and to say that I was blown away each time is an understatement. I'm not a major fan of Classical Music but what blew me away was that the tiny little wooden box was so incredibly LOUD while retaining absolute balanced focus of tonal range, just freaking Glorious..

Whether one likes traditional centralized sound holes (ports) or those off to the side somewhere depends on a few things besides ones devotion to Traditionalism, though that is commonly a Biggy. If you play strictly acoustically or amplified is a huge concern. If you play for yourself and maybe a handful of people vs/ an auditorium should affect that decision as well. Also depending on what's more important to you - consistency across individual designs or unique character - that should affect your decision as well. Ultimately it is about taste in sound and little will change that.

There was a time when the Saxophone was despised and not considered "a real instrument" and it took time for it to be accepted among the heavy Traditionalists that naturally abound in the Classical world, yet it survived and flourished nonetheless if only because it offered a fairly unique new voice. Side ported guitars are not fundamentally different from traditional guitars to be comparable to the upstart Saxophone but they do offer different characteristics that have value to many.

Personally I find the guitar that tINY posted a photo of to be beautiful as well as interesting. I'd love to try one.... but then I actually like the Adamas and note that it has managed to survive for almost a half century when numerous other "innovations" died out in a decade or less. Remember Dan Armstrong and Fibes? Yeah. A fad. Carbon fiber and side ports? Maybe not.
Old 8th March 2018
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
The problem John is that you have misapplied your principle/theory and are convinced that you are right.

A fundamental principle of Science is that everything is up for testing yet your just happy to ignore anyone who has tested guitars with side -ports and just stick with your own beliefs.

If you got out your measuring microphones and used some measuring software then you might measure some differences and honestly I'm not claiming that you should automatically record guitars with side-ports from the position of the side-port but from the point of view of helping the player hear themselves they work great and are reasonably balanced.

This is ALL that anyone who supports side-ports has claimed.
The thing is, I've never had any problem hearing an acoustic guitar with a plain old traditional front-facing port in the (approximate) middle of the soundboard.

The whole issue seems to me to be "a solution in search of a problem".

The greater part of the sound doesn't come out of the port. That's not what it's there for.

I'd wager that not one of you bothered to read the article I linked to, or got all glassy-eyed when you encountered the math (which you can skip , by the way, as far as our purposes are concerned) and actually tried the extremely simple experiment oi blocking the sound hole in a conventional guitar with a pierce of cardboard and observing the difference in tonal spectrum.

It's a bass port. Any port in the body of an acoustic guitar is a bass port.

It's physics.
Old 8th March 2018
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
My opinion is that it's silly - most of the sound of an acoustic guitar radiates off the top (That's why they call it a "soundboard", D'Oh!), not out the port. The port is there for resonant tuning and for a certain amount of bass reinforcement. Most of the sound doesn't come of of the port in your speaker, does it?

Acoustics is acoustics.

It also makes it hard to mount a soundhole pickup if your hole isn't under the strings.
i guess that would be a major argument in favour of the side port - more radiating/vibrating surface area and still has the port -

i would imagine it also provides some richer opportunities for micing
Old 8th March 2018
  #40
I don't know why you guys are so skeptical. This is a genius evolution designed to solve one thing and one thing alone - finally I can get that pencil out of there...
Old 8th March 2018
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
The thing is, I've never had any problem hearing an acoustic guitar with a plain old traditional front-facing port in the (approximate) middle of the soundboard.
There you go. John doesn't personally feel the need for side-ports so even though he hasn't tried them they are just stupid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I'd wager that not one of you bothered to read the article I linked to, or got all glassy-eyed when you encountered the math (which you can skip , by the way, as far as our purposes are concerned

It's physics.
We are talking about issue "A". There is no need to read up on issue "B" when we are talking about issue "A".

You really need to play a guitar with a side-port John before discussing it further.

Even if you don't like them which you are entitled to do it doesn't mean that they don't work for someone else.
Old 8th March 2018
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitsmith View Post
i guess that would be a major argument in favour of the side port - more radiating/vibrating surface area and still has the port -

i would imagine it also provides some richer opportunities for micing


Wisdom here... it may not work out, but theoretically, you could get rid of the port right by the bridge. That would change your options on where to stick a mic....


-tINY

Old 8th March 2018
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
I don't know why you guys are so skeptical. This is a genius evolution designed to solve one thing and one thing alone - finally I can get that pencil out of there...
All those lost picks!
Old 8th March 2018
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
There you go. John doesn't personally feel the need for side-ports so even though he hasn't tried them they are just stupid.




We are talking about issue "A". There is no need to read up on issue "B" when we are talking about issue "A".

You really need to play a guitar with a side-port John before discussing it further.

Even if you don't like them which you are entitled to do it doesn't mean that they don't work for someone else.
I see no need to indulge your expectation bias.

And at various times I've played guitars with holes in various wacky places. I see no benefit.

Personally, I like JJ Cale's back-ported Harmony....
Attached Thumbnails
Side sound holes in acoustic guitars, yay or nay?-jj_cale_harmony_back.jpg  

Last edited by John Eppstein; 9th March 2018 at 04:41 AM..
Old 9th March 2018
  #45
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enorbet2's Avatar
Danger! OT Tangent!

Speaking of Back Porting... I have a Princeton Reverb with a cast frame Celestion 12 for which I calculated Thiele-Small Parameters which determined that a port the width of the cabinet would need to be just shy of three (3) inches. Since I use whisper fan cooling I decided to make a solid backplate that would deliver the correct volumes and cross section to see if it would function at tightening up bass response and improving headroom. It did. I then concluded that in effect open backs are just sloppy (undesigned and left to chance) ports. For about an hours work and a chunk of 1/2" of birch plywood it proved to be a highly desirable and easily reversed mod. The semi-closed back comes at a loss which is that of coiling the power cable in the cabinet. That's easily solved either by coiling standoffs on the back or, better, installing a Universal AC jack so that good quality PC-type AC cables can be used.

Unconventional? Yeah. Functional? Oh Yeah!

Also, back On Topic, there is one possible downside to side holes. There is an effect caused by the sound hole being oriented so that it adds some air movement across the strings creating a minor feedback loop which does slightly increase sustain but also introduces a slight phase smear. So depending on what effect you prefer, while minor, it is a consideration as to which is preferable or if it is worthwhile to have at least two guitars for different response and tonality.
Old 9th March 2018
  #46
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there is no way a player is ever going to hear the guitar the way the audience does. just think of the acoustics of the situation

if you want a port on the side because a guitar sounds better to you that way fine, but you will never hear it the way your audience does

that is a scientific fact
Old 9th March 2018
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Scott View Post
You truly are what they say about you. Pompous.
Actually he's right.....
Old 10th March 2018
  #48
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Jeff Scott's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardis View Post
Actually he's right.....
He's pompous because he can't/won't accept other's POV/experiences.
Old 10th March 2018
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Scott View Post
He's pompous because he can't/won't accept other's POV/experiences.

Not even remotely true. I completely redid my approach to recording drums when I encountered William Wittman's method, which most conventional people thing is weird. It just happens to work exceptionally well.

I just don't buy silly stuff for the sake of being different/"new"/"modern", etc.

Ans I don't buy into nonsense that I know from experience is wrong.

It's kinda funny - I don't think I've ever invoked "expectation bias" before - I generally hate the term - but I did in this discussion because it's appropriate.

A port in the side won't give you a balanced representation (or even a rough approximation) of the sound in front of the guitar. Which is what everybody's been claiming. I never said it doesn't change what the player hears, but I seriously question the value of that change.

Now, if the reason you REALLY want a hole in the side is to show everybody how weird, cool, or different (select one or more according to self-image) you are, go for it. But don't expect me to buy into your excuses for doing so (because as we all know, doing something just because it's "weird, cool, or different" ain't really cool.)

("Oh, WOW, man, did you see that dood's guitar? It has a hole in the side shaped like a kitty-cat's footprint!")

<snicker>
Old 11th March 2018
  #50
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Scott View Post
He's pompous because he can't/won't accept other's POV/experiences.
FWIW when we are talking about scientifically verifiable or falsifiable data, POV and "experiences" barely count at all. That's exactly why the Rules of Evidence in a Court of Law rule out such things as opinion and hearsay. They may be of some interest but objective testing is required for proof. Our senses lie to us all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatles
But the fool on the hill
Sees the sun going down
And the eyes in his head
See the world spinning round
John is not pompous. He may be arrogant but that can come with the territory of knowledge and experience. The problem here is that we are talking about Art, and Art that is subject to technological Science BUT Art holds the trump card. If you like the sound of 10 car radio speakers mounted in a 55 Gallon Drum, what does it matter if some tech whiz shows you graphs and formulae telling you why it is inefficient or non-linear?

Also FWIW, I AM a tech whiz with training and a half century's worth of experience but I am also an Artist and know what matters most and where and when to apply the right perspective. John sometimes seems to take a hard line on Tradition and Technology, and is certainly not PC (actually a good thing) but he is also, more often than not, Correct. Maybe more importantly you KNOW where he stands because he makes no apologies and doesn't shuffle his feet and submit to "social nice-ities" . Many musicians need to learn to stand up just like that for what they truly are and learn to "let the chips fall where they may".

OTOH John could possibly learn something from Paul Simon about so-called Brutal Honesty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenderness
Honesty
Honesty
It's such a waste of energy
No you don't have to lie to me
Just give me some tenderness
Beneath your honesty
You don't have to lie to me
Just give me some tenderness
Old 11th March 2018
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
FWIW when we are talking about scientifically verifiable or falsifiable data, POV and "experiences" barely count at all. That's exactly why the Rules of Evidence in a Court of Law rule out such things as opinion and hearsay. They may be of some interest but objective testing is required for proof. Our senses lie to us all the time.



John is not pompous. He may be arrogant but that can come with the territory of knowledge and experience. The problem here is that we are talking about Art, and Art that is subject to technological Science BUT Art holds the trump card. If you like the sound of 10 car radio speakers mounted in a 55 Gallon Drum, what does it matter if some tech whiz shows you graphs and formulae telling you why it is inefficient or non-linear?

Also FWIW, I AM a tech whiz with training and a half century's worth of experience but I am also an Artist and know what matters most and where and when to apply the right perspective. John sometimes seems to take a hard line on Tradition and Technology, and is certainly not PC (actually a good thing) but he is also, more often than not, Correct. Maybe more importantly you KNOW where he stands because he makes no apologies and doesn't shuffle his feet and submit to "social nice-ities" . Many musicians need to learn to stand up just like that for what they truly are and learn to "let the chips fall where they may".

OTOH John could possibly learn something from Paul Simon about so-called Brutal Honesty
FWIW Art was my uncle, a retired high school principal from Peoria, Illinois, who died of a heart attack while pushing a lawn mower at my parents' summer place in Maine. First dead body I even saw. He looked so peaceful. I was 7 years old...
Old 11th March 2018
  #52
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
FWIW Art was my uncle, a retired high school principal from Peoria, Illinois, who died of a heart attack while pushing a lawn mower at my parents' summer place in Maine. First dead body I even saw. He looked so peaceful. I was 7 years old...
Warning: OT tangent and possibly NSFW (though censored)

HeHeHeh Yeah ... peaceful.... actually I have no fear of death. It's just annoying that it lasts so freakin' lo-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-n-n-n-n-g-g-g-g.

Since we're on a tangent (this has not an acoustic to be found anywhere ported up, down or sideways... but maybe in the Bass Cab) but does feature Death both in lyric and in the seemingly dying squalls of an old Gretsch, it is Art-ful but certainly ain't yer Uncle's Country and it most certainly isn't peaceful though possibly resigned, I give you "Essence"

Old 12th March 2018
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Scott View Post
He's pompous because he can't/won't accept other's POV/experiences.
Actually he does, he just doesn't suffer fools gladly..... I can live with someone speaking plainly, if they know what they are talking about. There are precious few pros on GS, and a lot of bedroom guys. There is a big difference making a living as a musician/engineer as your way to make a living, vs doing it nights and weekends, or teaching. Figure people are taking time to post on here, so attacking them personally is kinda stupid, unless you counter something specific...
Old 12th March 2018
  #54
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Jeff Scott's Avatar
 

...I've done more than my share of recording, perhaps on a smaller scale than JE did/does, but I still have that real world experience to draw from. As to sound ports, in particular, I understand them from the other side of the microphone, as a musician. From that side, there is no downside to a sound port at all.

I have not recorded my guitar with sound port yet, but from my perspective as both a sometime engineer and as a pro level musician I don't see any issues in producing an excellent recording with that guitar.

Keeping an open mind, and acknowledging the possibility of things not experienced firsthand, always helps people grow, unless one doesn' really care to expand their knowledge base.

Last edited by Jeff Scott; 12th March 2018 at 07:57 PM..
Old 12th March 2018
  #55
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Personally having played a guitar with a soundport, I didn't notice anything taking away the tone (it was a very good guitar!), and I liked being able to hear the guitar in a different way. Kinda like the armrest bevel, ugly but functional.....
Old 12th March 2018
  #56
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Could be ok for recording..i mean, i almost always make some cuts in the bass areas when dropping an acoustic in the mix..or building around acoustic guitar in a mix..mostly with strummed stuff but hey..i have no doubt that a second hole would act as relief / release for some bass pressure. nothing's perfect and there's plus and minuses with almost everything like this.
Old 13th March 2018
  #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Scott View Post
...I've done more than my share of recording, perhaps on a smaller scale than JE did/does, but I still have that real world experience to draw from. As to sound ports, in particular, I understand them from the other side of the microphone, as a musician. From that side, there is no downside to a sound port at all.

I have not recorded my guitar with sound port yet, but from my perspective as both a sometime engineer and as a pro level musician I don't see any issues in producing an excellent recording with that guitar.

Keeping an open mind, and acknowledging the possibility of things not experienced firsthand, always helps people grow, unless one doesn' really care to expand their knowledge base.
I'm not sure if "downside" is a valid concept here. What I'm objecting to is spurious, unscientific claims of something that just ain't so.

If you like what it does, fine. That's up to you. But don't make absurd claims based on pseudoscience. The operation of ports is very well known - it's been analyzed to death.

The thing is that I'm both a musician and a sound engineer and tech and have put in roughly equal amounts of work on both sides, which very few people have. Reconciling both viewpoints can be quite difficult.
Old 13th March 2018
  #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pchicago View Post
Could be ok for recording..i mean, i almost always make some cuts in the bass areas when dropping an acoustic in the mix..or building around acoustic guitar in a mix..mostly with strummed stuff but hey..i have no doubt that a second hole would act as relief / release for some bass pressure. nothing's perfect and there's plus and minuses with almost everything like this.
Who knows? Maybe, maybe not depending on what you're after. I believe that it's extremely dubious that the extra port would "act as relief / release for some bass pressure." to any extent that would be different fro changing the are of the existing port. That's what the effects of ports are calculated from - the area of the opening and the depth of the port relative to the volume of the enclosed space. Having two, dissimilar ports could make the calculations more difficult but the same rules apply. Something else that concerns me is that photo of an instrument with the port on a corner, not a side, which could be difficult to figure.

The whole way I'm seeing this implemented smacks of the influence of a "designer". Not an acoustic designer or a traditional instrument designer, the kinds of "designer" who draws widgets for Apple or "recording monitors" for Gibson.

I think what's much more important is your recording technique. As most of you probably know I'm somewhat critical of the "conventional innmewrwebz wizzdom" on recording acoustic guitars and generally employ a significantly different technique that gives a balanced capture of the tonality of the instrument without the drawbacks of conventional close micing.
Old 13th March 2018
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I'm not sure if "downside" is a valid concept here. What I'm objecting to is spurious, unscientific claims of something that just ain't so.

If you like what it does, fine. That's up to you. But don't make absurd claims based on pseudoscience. The operation of ports is very well known - it's been analyzed to death.
Science John. Really?

I stated the Scientific Method a couple of pages ago but you left it alone.

The unscientific claims are all yours John.
John. You are the one who has made claims that you believe are backed by Science but they don't hold water.

A fundamental principle of Science is that ALL hypothesis are open to be tested (proved/disproved ) by ANYONE. You've claimed that the sound from a side port would be very bassy and it just isn't so and many people here have the personal experience to judge this.

You answer to such claims isn't to play one for yourself but just to claim that you know better. Nothing unusual about this. This is just the "Father knows best" model of truth which is perfectly normal human behaviour.

Practicing "Science" however is NOT normal human behaviour and Science rejects "Father knows best" out of hand.

You really need to play a guitar with a side port John.
Old 14th March 2018
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Science John. Really?

I stated the Scientific Method a couple of pages ago but you left it alone.
Yes, you gave a more or less reasonable Jr High General Science 1 book rendition of the scientific method. I have no argument with those words - everybody who managed not to sleep through basic high school science should know this. It's too bad that you neither understand what you're quoting nor are able to follow it.

Dig it, Junior - I grew up as a University Brat. My Uncle Sam (really) who was a research biochemist for Upjohn gave my first subscription to Scientific American magazine at the age of 12 (1962). When, at the age of 7, I asked my parents for a chemistry set instead of buying me the typical off the shelf Gilbert set (now banned) from the toy store my dad went to the chem department at the University and brought me home a full-blown lab. I started soldering and fooling around with primitive audio stuff (telegraphs, closed circuit telephone systems built of antique parts from the auctions my parents went to, basic radio crap at around the age of SIX. I built my first electric guitar totally from scratch (including stereo split pickups) at 13, adapting from plans in Popular Science for a steel guitar. (It wasn't very good but was enough to convince my dad to buy me a used Strat.) I started studying basic acoustics in Junior High School. When I was a little toddler before preschool my dad used to tell me about building Tesla Coils when HE was kid, using Model T spark coils as primaries. I was reading at age of 3. (Big mistake - after my parents caught me at it they made me read to them instead of reading to me....)

As Dad used to say, don't teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.

(I doubt that you have the historical perspective required to understand that saying, but that's not my problem.)

But I'll be nice and translate it for you - Don't try to talk "science" to me, you're not qualified.

What's more germane to the subject here is that I gave you a solid scientific reference about this subject and you either ignored it or were incapable of understanding either the reference or how it applies to the discussion Again, YOUR problem, not mine.

And it doesn't seem to mean anything to you that I've been dealing with this stuff most of my life.

Which makes you either a troll, a fool, or both. Because you persist on babbling the same nonsense and ignoring the facts.

I have been dealing with acoustics, ports, and Helmholtz resonators probably since before you were born.

I don't need top discuss your "opinion" because, as they say in the legal profession, the question is asked and answered. (That means we already know what the answer is, no reason to waste time discussing spurious arguments.)

Last edited by John Eppstein; 14th March 2018 at 04:59 AM..
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