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Are real drummers in the studio done? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 1 week ago
  #511
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ProgFree, do yourself a favour and throw the shovel away.
Old 1 week ago
  #512
Quote:
Originally Posted by donsolo View Post
Now, to further clarify, I'm not saying it's impossible to emotionally connect to something using a loop or a sequence, what I'm saying is that it's harder
For you.
Old 1 week ago
  #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The actual KEY atmosphere of the track is small sounding drum box, simple synth pad and emotive vocal. That's the whole thing about that track.
No question.

But...from a broad mainstream perspective, while what you say is true (many will connect to what you point out), what many get from that tune besides that is the tom break.

I dunno, my guess is it's the most ubiquitous air drum thing ever, am I wrong?

People may like the tune, but people love the toms...without them toms, it's not the same.
Old 1 week ago
  #514
I'm sort of amazed we've ended up here.
Going back to the original post, are real drummers done in the studio.....
Obviously, because of the evidence that there are still studio drummers working today, the answer is no.
On from that.... Is good music that connects with the audience made with real drummers? Of course. Is it also made with programmed drums and drum machines? Of course, there is a mountain of great tracks with programmed drums. Many, many classics. They don't become classics by not connecting with the audience.

In The Air Tonight
Sexual Healing
Sign Of The Times
1999
Don't You Want Me Baby
Family Affair
Why Can't We Live Together
The Message
I Feel Love
Blue Monday
Papa Don't Preach

Etc, etc, etc....
Old 1 week ago
  #515
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
No question.

But...from a broad mainstream perspective, while what you say is true (many will connect to what you point out), what many get from that tune besides that is the tom break.

I dunno, my guess is it's the most ubiquitous air drum thing ever, am I wrong?

People may like the tune, but people love the toms...without them toms, it's not the same.
No.
You don't have a hit by leaving the key ingredient until the end of the song.
95% of the audience connect with the lyric and the emotion of Collins performance.
Actually, the rhythmic element is irrelevant to the impact of the song on most listeners.
I can guarantee a small number of people even know there is a unique tom sound on the end.

This argument is just silly.
The audience doesn't know specific instruments or production techniques. The song and performance grabs them in the first minute or so, or it doesn't.
Everyone in the industry knows this.
Old 1 week ago
  #516
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
No.
You don't have a hit by leaving the key ingredient until the end of the song.
95% of the audience connect with the lyric and the emotion of Collins performance.
Actually, the rhythmic element is irrelevant to the impact of the song on most listeners.
I can guarantee a small number of people even know there is a unique tom sound on the end.

This argument is just silly.
The audience doesn't know specific instruments or production techniques. The song and performance grabs them in the first minute or so, or it doesn't.
Everyone in the industry knows this.
I didn't discount what you said first of all.

I can just relate anecdotally, from person accounts, of numerous occasions of whenever people bring that tune up, not just musicians, ordinary folks - they do the air drums on tom break, as well as singing the tune. In addition to all the occasions shown in myriad media.

even Steph Curry:
Stephen Curry air-drums to 'In The Air Tonight' just like you do - SBNation.com

or Iron Mike:


I'm tellin ya, them toms...
Old 1 week ago
  #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm sort of amazed we've ended up here.
Going back to the original post, are real drummers done in the studio.....
Obviously, because of the evidence that there are still studio drummers working today, the answer is no.
On from that.... Is good music that connects with the audience made with real drummers? Of course. Is it also made with programmed drums and drum machines? Of course, there is a mountain of great tracks with programmed drums. Many, many classics. They don't become classics by not connecting with the audience.

In The Air Tonight
Sexual Healing
Sign Of The Times
1999
Don't You Want Me Baby
Family Affair
Why Can't We Live Together
The Message
I Feel Love
Blue Monday
Papa Don't Preach

Etc, etc, etc....
...When Doves Cry

I think post 1990, more so than drum machines, what made more of an impact going forward were samplers w/ sequencers, a la MPCs, SP-1200, ASR-10, Roland MVs, etc...

Bell Biv DeVoe - Poison
Old 1 week ago
  #518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
No.
You don't have a hit by leaving the key ingredient until the end of the song.
95% of the audience connect with the lyric and the emotion of Collins performance.
Actually, the rhythmic element is irrelevant to the impact of the song on most listeners.
I can guarantee a small number of people even know there is a unique tom sound on the end.

This argument is just silly.
The audience doesn't know specific instruments or production techniques. The song and performance grabs them in the first minute or so, or it doesn't.
Everyone in the industry knows this.
I think 12-tone is right here. Watch an audience when the song plays; everyone is just waiting to air-drum with the toms when they come in. Kind of like "Stairway to Heaven" when the drums come in. Phil's tom fill is a genuine hook in that song, that draws people in like a vacuum cleaner when it happens. Tension builds, and explodes at that point.
Old 1 week ago
  #519
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
...When Doves Cry

I think post 1990, more so than drum machines, what made more of an impact going forward were samplers w/ sequencers, a la MPCs, SP-1200, ASR-10, Roland MVs, etc...

Bell Biv DeVoe - Poison
Ah yeh! The MPC / SP-12 generation!!! Tell me this aint got soul and emotion!!

YouTube
Old 1 week ago
  #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Noooo, not at all. the drums at the end are the icing on the cake.
You've had an intro, two verses and two chorusses by then.
If you think the audience, let alone radio stations and record company pluggers are going to endure MOST of a song having no connection with them, only to feel a connection right at the end, you know less about the music industry than I thought you did.
The actual KEY atmosphere of the track is small sounding drum box, simple synth pad and emotive vocal. That's the whole thing about that track.

Whatever:

Another huge hit....
Vienna - Ultravox.
One dimensional synth drums, a sort of programmed bass drum and hand triggered white noise.
You're telling me another huge ballad hit didn't connect with the audience?
dude I get it, and in the air tonight is really all about the vocal until those drums kick in. The machine is filling the role, but it's there for atmosphere like you said, thus the only thing to connect with is the vocal, and thank god it's a great vocal with good lyrics. But, that means that the vocal has to carry the emotional weight, which is fine, especially for that song.

The processed acoustic drums definitely add emotional impact, I think we'd agree on that. And yes, I know people listen to 30 seconds and kill it if it doesn't connect. maybe they listen all the way through if it does.

This Vienna song I don't know, I assume this is the one:


This is the same thing, the piano carries the emotional burden during the instrumental breaks, but the weight falls entirely on the vocal again. I'm personally not into making the vocal carry all the water. The string section is synthesized and to me, it loses impact there until the piano comes back.

We should probably make a distinction between synth-heavy vocal music and synthesized instrumental music, which is what I'm railing on about. If there's a vocal, the only thing the audience gets to connect to is the vocal, which if the singer is as good as this, sure, have fun. Make a production that gets out of the way, but there's a ton of novelty in this production. Compare that to say a Motown production and even if you're not into the singer or the lyrics, you can latch onto the funk brothers. The live instruments add an additional pathway to connect.

For the record, I'm baffled why this is such a big hit, but for a song from 1980 with 5m views on youtube, I'd argue it didn't have the lasting emotional impact you're suggesting it does. In comparison, In the air tonight has 145m on the official video and 11m on the bootleg video that ranks #2 . Both of which are outperforming this official video.
Old 1 week ago
  #521
But that's my point.
You don't need real drums to draw the audience in. A machine, even a monotonous, not particularly programmed drum machine will do - hence Vienna and In The Air Tonight and Why Can't We Live Together.
Old 1 week ago
  #522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
I think 12-tone is right here. Watch an audience when the song plays; everyone is just waiting to air-drum with the toms when they come in.
Fine, people like the bit at the end, but what about when it was first released?
You think anyone puts out a single, hoping for it to be a hit, knowing the song doesn't connect with the audience until the last minute out of five minutes?

Nope.
The simple drum machine does exactly what it is designed to do. It keeps a pulse going and let's the audience focus on the vocal and lyrics.
The big toms, or any other real drumming would have killed the mood earlier in the song.
Old 1 week ago
  #523
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I can just relate anecdotally, from person accounts, of numerous occasions of whenever people bring that tune up, not just musicians, ordinary folks - they do the air drums on tom break, as well as singing the tune.
I'm sure there are countless forgotten songs with great drum fills at the end.
people only enjoy the end of the song because they've been engaged from the beginning.
That's a basic rule in pop. Grab the audience and keep them.
Old 1 week ago
  #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
I think 12-tone is right here. Watch an audience when the song plays; everyone is just waiting to air-drum with the toms when they come in. Kind of like "Stairway to Heaven" when the drums come in. Phil's tom fill is a genuine hook in that song, that draws people in like a vacuum cleaner when it happens. Tension builds, and explodes at that point.
However Stewie from 'Family Guy' loved the song for the reverse reverb on the line "Well I remember....."
Old 1 week ago
  #525
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ProgFree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Not what we are discussing.
We were told music with machines does not connect with the audience emotionally.
I never said that. I said a drummer connects more (if we use your wording).


Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
2 minutes 40 seconds of a 5 minute 30 second song is a cheap drum box. End of story.
The article you linked to admitted the real drums were only at the end.
You really have a problem critically analysing production and drum recording if you can't hear the first two thirds of the song are a cheap drum box and that is 90% of the atmosphere of the song. It's designed to be intimate, while not getting in the way of the vocal.
I know that song very well and know since many years what are the drums there, as said it is a textbook classic. My point is that it is not a "drum machine driven song" as you said, because those live drums got very famous and people emulate them since then in innumerous contexts. My point is: the song is famous for the drums and not for the drum machine. According to your first statement the opposite is transmitted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
ProgFree, do yourself a favour and throw the shovel away.
I wish but "them" won't let me and want to keep "diggin in the dirt" (also nice gated snare drums there)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I like and respect "them"...them's some of the best aspects of this place, always interested in what "thems" have to say....
Me too, but that does not allow "them" nor anyone to personal insult others I guess...
Old 1 week ago
  #526
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@chrisso that basic rule should be in all music and we should all live by it.
Old 1 week ago
  #527
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I think the most emotionally connected I've ever felt to a song was around '94, when "Man In The Mirror" (an oldie even then) just happened to come on the radio. Could've been something about the time of my life when it came on (I was about 15 or 16), but for some reason I was literally shaking when it finished. That's how hard it hit me. For a time afterwards, I became obsessed with that song. To me, it represented the pinnacle of what a song is supposed to do, and Michael Jackson's performance is phenomenal. Up until then, MJ had really only been on my peripheral...I knew his music, but I never paid much attention. But at that moment I became an MJ fan.

If you look at the credits, there is no drummer listed on that song. It is clearly a machine. But quite possibly my favorite part is the second verse, where the full drum kit comes in, and that snare just whacks you across the face. If one doesn't feel even a little bit motivated to get off your behind and make the world a better place after listening to that track, I don't know...you may want to check your pulse.

Clearly an example of a song that I think is perfect as is, and wouldn't necessarily be improved by a live drummer. It's a combination of great songwriting, great arrangement, great production, and a transcendent peformance by a legendary talent. That's the most obvious example I can think of off the top of my head regarding the effective use of programmed drums, but I'm sure it's far from the only one.
Old 1 week ago
  #528
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProgFree View Post
I never said that. I said a drummer connects more (if we use your wording).
most people don't know the difference between a drummer and a drum machine. So no, it it's irrelevant how it is made. hence the huge number of hits with drum machines and no drummer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ProgFree View Post
I know that song very well and know since many years what are the drums there, as said it is a textbook classic. My point is that it is not a "drum machine driven song" as you said, because those live drums got very famous and people emulate them since then in innumerous contexts. My point is: the song is famous for the drums and not for the drum machine. According to your first statement the opposite is transmitted.
The drums at the end has become a hook. If people didn't care about the song by then, they wouldn't care about the drums at the end.
Name any hit song where the song, music and lyrics are irrelevant, while the drums are the key element?
There are none.
You think Ahmet Ertegun (hugely successful record company icon) or producer Hugh Padgham would have let the track go through with drums that meant nothing, just because the drums at the end were great?
They re-recorded most of the song, so they could have easily put real drums on the whole thing. But actually, all three obviously felt the simple drum box was perfect.

Anyway, as i say....
Vienna, Family Affair, Sexual Healing, When Doves Cry.....
You don't need a real drummer to connect with the audience and go on to have a classic recording on your resume.
Old 1 week ago
  #529
Geariophile
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
You don't need a real drummer to connect with the audience and go on to have a classic recording on your resume.
Indeed, you don't. But how does this fact play into the thread title, if at all? I mean, really, it doesn't. There will still be drummers recorded in studios for music where a drummer is what works better....
Old 1 week ago
  #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm sure there are countless forgotten songs with great drum fills at the end.
people only enjoy the end of the song because they've been engaged from the beginning.
That's a basic rule in pop. Grab the audience and keep them.
I'm sure there are.

AFAIK though, in terms of a particular drum fill that a lay audience knows of, there's nothing that surpasses the one in "ITAT".

It's Phil's most well known tune - something he's said so himself, and that it'll out live him, and the fill is the best known/best liked thing about it for a lot of folks.

I don't think it can be explained fully in rational terms, it's one of those things that defies logic or explanation, it just is. I'm certain Phil had no idea that it would have attracted so much attention or popularity. I'm certain he had no idea the enormity of it, what it would become, when he first played the fill.

For the diehards (and probably suitable as a torture device as well):
Old 1 week ago
  #531
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clump's Avatar
 

I think it is an amazing thing that music has the power to move people in such a huge way, with or without real drums.....the fact that 'them'and 'those' argue their points on here so passionately is testament to the power of music....Give me passion over indifference any day.

Incidentally, I never liked the gated snare on 'In The Air Tonight' nor the hideous, overblown drum fill........The drumming on 'Anyone who had a heart' (Cilla Blacks version) I could listen to forever.....It's all over the place, yet it isn't.....the fills sound like lazy flams, but they're not. It's just an other-worldly drum track.

Well I like it anyway
Old 1 week ago
  #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
For the diehards...
Interesting. Removed from their context, those toms sound really ratty.
Old 1 week ago
  #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clump View Post
Incidentally, I never liked the gated snare on 'In The Air Tonight' nor the hideous, overblown drum fill........The drumming on 'Anyone who had a heart' (Cilla Blacks version) I could listen to forever.....It's all over the place, yet it isn't.....the fills sound like lazy flams, but they're not. It's just an other-worldly drum track.

Well I like it anyway
Arguably the most famous/popular jazz tune of all time, has an almost 2 1/2 minute drum solo from Joe Morello (~1:55 - 4:20)...practically unheard of, in any genre, it's basically the bulk of the tune other than the melody and the much shorter sax solo.
Old 1 week ago
  #534
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ProgFree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Name any hit song where the song, music and lyrics are irrelevant, while the drums are the key element?
There are none.
Lyrics doesn't have and the rest of the music is still relevant but drums are quite a central element here:

Old 1 week ago
  #535
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ProgFree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Name any hit song where the song, music and lyrics are irrelevant, while the drums are the key element?
Here you have

Old 1 week ago
  #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProgFree View Post
Here you have

You obviously don't speak german.
Old 1 week ago
  #537
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Thread Starter
Not sure if this has been mentioned already, but there a couple of things that live drums add that are very hard to replicate with programmed drums, or a drum machine. Firstly cymbal parts, whether it's hi-hats, crashes or ride cymbals. There is something about the complexity of a cool hi-hat groove where the timbre varies on every hit and the accents and dynamics play a major part of the feel. Reminds me of the fluidity I look for in a strummed acoustic guitar, and also when you get those cool syncopated ghost notes on the snare going.

Then there is the acoustic glue, where the ambience or room sound fill in the gaps and breath life and dimension in to the recorded sounds. One of my favourite things to do when working on house music in the early 2000s was layering fairly simple but very good drum samples, often just 4 x 4 kick, snare and some kind of hi hats, with live percussion. Often congas, bongos, live shakers and occasionally hi-hats. Bang the drum mix though an SSL bus compressor and get it all swinging as one....

Now, could you replicate some of those critical elements with live drum software...? Some of which I've tried and IMO succeeded, but not always. On the other side of the fence though, at times 'real' live drum recordings have felt too inconsistent or messy for some songs I have worked on and I have preferred drums that are more sequenced.

Then there is the issue of the power of the drums, I think there is nothing quite like the power of a big fat 4 to the floor sampled kick powering the track along, and a live bass drum sonically and in terms of timing doesn't have the same level of energy. Which all amounts to using whatever is right for the track to create something cool and unique. In my world I wouldn't want to limit myself to just live drums, sampled drums or a drum machine - as I've seen commented upon here with preconceived theories - embrace it all, experiment, and keep f'ing around until you come up with something cool....
Old 1 week ago
  #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProgFree View Post
I wonder what is your role? Showing us that you can do a "grumpph"?

I mentioned that regarding the statement:
well this just seems like a canard with which you are trying to appeal to the crowd for help, by pretending I'm emulating grumpph. you're now in fact furnishing him with supporting evidence simply by trying that trick imo.

when you say role, I assume this is a part of some fevered conspiracy you are desperately trying to concoct in some further attempt to rally some troops. thing is though, you were ridiculing chrisso as part of your performance and not even seeming to recognise his distinction in respect of the drum machine. so you must have either wilfully ignored it or not understood the implication of the distinction. either way, subsequently trying to ridicule him, is not really a very clever thing to try to do. especially if your point is superficially attractive, but actually wrong.
or in other words, specious.
Old 1 week ago
  #539
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clump View Post


The drumming on 'Anyone who had a heart' (Cilla Blacks version) I could listen to forever.....It's all over the place, yet it isn't.....the fills sound like lazy flams, but they're not. It's just an other-worldly drum track.

Well I like it anyway
I know exactly what you mean. There is a certain period in British 60s pop that features a solo singer (usually female) with an orchestra and a drummer. Cilla is a good example, are are the early Dusty Springfield records,and some of Petula Clark's stuff. The drummers on those tracks play in a marvelous style that almost seem to have died out in commercial records. It manages to convey a lot of rhythm and feel without resorting to the "loud Kick and snare all the time in the same pattern" that seems to dominate modern recordings.

This Bobbie Vee song is also a good example of an early 60s pop drummer creating an amazing rhythmic mood without driving the kick- snare pattern. This sounds so easy until you actually try and play it note for note

YouTube
Old 1 week ago
  #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevron View Post
One of my favourite things to do when working on house music in the early 2000s was layering fairly simple but very good drum samples, often just 4 x 4 kick, snare and some kind of hi hats, with live percussion. Often congas, bongos, live shakers and occasionally hi-hats. Bang the drum mix though an SSL bus compressor and get it all swinging as one....


I do this nowadays even for styles such as hardrock and metal when I get programmed drums. Just recording a hi-hat and/or a egg shaker and having those nicely eq'ed and barely listenable changes the picture. I usually record each of those quite roomy, changes the hole swing of the track making it feel more natural.

In fact just recording an empty room and having it side chained to the snare and kick gives a great glue to the drum bus.
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