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Most realistic Fender Twin Amp Sim?
Old 7th July 2017
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Most realistic Fender Twin Amp Sim?

Hi all --

I've had to sell my Fender 65 Twin Reverb reissue recently due to moving to a new place where unfortunately I am unable to mic up anything! It's all D.I. and amp sims from here on in...

Currently all I've started using is the built in Logic Amp Designer which sounds not too bad with some tweaking and using some third party IR's, but i'm wondering if there are better options out there currently for that Fender 65 Twin Reverb sound? (Doesn't necessarily have to have the reverb sound with it.. I do have a good spring reverb plugin already that can be used.)

Thanks!

Roz
Old 7th July 2017
  #2
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rozzy80 View Post
Hi all --

I've had to sell my Fender 65 Twin Reverb reissue recently due to moving to a new place where unfortunately I am unable to mic up anything! It's all D.I. and amp sims from here on in...

Currently all I've started using is the built in Logic Amp Designer which sounds not too bad with some tweaking and using some third party IR's, but i'm wondering if there are better options out there currently for that Fender 65 Twin Reverb sound? (Doesn't necessarily have to have the reverb sound with it.. I do have a good spring reverb plugin already that can be used.)

Thanks!

Roz
The only official Fender amp sims are the 2 Fender bundles in Amplitube 4.I thought the original one sounded great but people are saying the new one that just came out is even better,although I have yet to try it.
Old 8th July 2017
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

Joyo American Sound or a Sansamp Blonde. I've had both, sold the Blonde. Neither have reverb, but you said you've got that covered. I tried a load of amp sims. American Sound is heads above all that I've tried.
Old 8th July 2017
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rozzy80 View Post
Hi all --

I've had to sell my Fender 65 Twin Reverb reissue recently due to moving to a new place where unfortunately I am unable to mic up anything! It's all D.I. and amp sims from here on in...

Currently all I've started using is the built in Logic Amp Designer which sounds not too bad with some tweaking and using some third party IR's, but i'm wondering if there are better options out there currently for that Fender 65 Twin Reverb sound? (Doesn't necessarily have to have the reverb sound with it.. I do have a good spring reverb plugin already that can be used.)

Thanks!

Roz
None.

There isn't a sim in the world that has the Twin Reverb's dynamic range, attack, and sparkle.

A Kemper with a set of Twin Reverb profiles may vey well come close, but because of way the K works you would need several profiles to cover the full range of the amp.
Old 9th July 2017
  #5
Registered User
Yet another useful post from John. May as well shoot yourself now.

Or get the Sansamp Blonde or the Joyo clone. The Kemper is an expensive solution that isn't necessary for DAW recording if you use your convolution reverb with some good IR files of speaker cabs.

The Blonde will give you a good clean analog amp sound with some tube-like warmth and the cab IR will finish it off. I much prefer it to any digital amp model i've found so far.
Old 9th July 2017
  #6
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Owen L T's Avatar
For clean-ish tones, of the three amp sims that I own (NI Guitar Rig, Cubase's stock Amp Rack, and Scuffham's S-Gear), I find the Scuffham to be the most satisfactory. There is no out-and-out Fender Twin emulation, but my understanding is that their 'Wayfarer' is at least partially a Twin emulation - and a much-praised one at that.

https://www.scuffhamamps.com/product...s/the-wayfarer

Scuffham S-Gear 2.4 |

Guitar isn't my first instrument, and of course the tracking experience is very different when you're going DI - but, then, you've already experienced this; so at least a better sim tone will be an improvement, as opposed to the inevitable let-down of moving from playing through a real amp to the sound of a DI while you're tracking. That said, I DO have a Fender tube amp (only a Blues Junior, mind) and the facility to track through it, but ... the convenience of DI wins out every time.

One thing I like about the S-Gear, in addition to the sound of course, is the fairly limited/boutique-y selection; it becomes less about flipping through endless models in search of a specific emulation and more about dialling in a sound that I actually like. Their manual gives a good idea the level of care/thought that's gone into the models and tone stacks.

I think a low-pass filter is generally needed amp sims, unless you like the additional high-end fizz they mostly seem to have.
Old 9th July 2017
  #7
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Old 9th July 2017
  #8
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Meh. Dynamic range and attack are overrated in a recording setup. The biggest problem in recording guitar amps is keeping the dynamic range and attack within the confines of the recording medium. If a sim designed for recording has less dynamic range and attack than the real thing, then that's GOOD.
Old 10th July 2017
  #9
Gear Addict
 

I can recommend Scuffham S-gear as well. It's a utility tool for recording - it covers a LOT of ground and it specializes in getting the overdrive dynamics to translate with-in the Sim to monitor better than any other in my opinion.
Old 10th July 2017
  #10
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Meh. Dynamic range and attack are overrated in a recording setup. The biggest problem in recording guitar amps is keeping the dynamic range and attack within the confines of the recording medium. If a sim designed for recording has less dynamic range and attack than the real thing, then that's GOOD.
I agree. And one mans "sparkle" is anothr mans "fizz".

If we wanted dynamic range and attack we would use ultra-fast soiid state DI's. (And some players do, for country and funk).

But the truth is, we expect electric guitars to be compressed - if not by a tube amp with saggy power tubes and the phase coloration of transformers and the inertia of accelerating a heavy speaker cone to push air molecules into action ... then by a compressor. And/or mag tape.

The tones that I desire from guitars are not dynamic or sharp in attack. They are smeared to hell and back by multiple analog stages, delaying the highs far more than the lows. This rounds off the transients and makes it more smooth around the ears.

I understand why the old school cowboys liked their clean-ER high-ER headroom amps ... it's because the old electronics could take it too far in the smeary direction. So certain high voltage circuits could get the desired clean twang by being less smeary than other stuff.

But with modern digital recording and transformerless electronics, amp sims are really struggling to get as smeary and compressed as the old stuff could get.

Something like the Blonde or American achieve the EQ shape and smooth saturation of a tube amp rather well. That's why it is hard to tell the difference in A/B tests - especially if slathered with reverb. I can tell the difference because I have both tube amps incuding Fender, and many Sansamps and many digital amps too.

The thing that makes the difference disappearingly small is convolution of IR files taken with good gear. The whole thing about these is time domain ...

A simple Low Pass Filter is often used as an analog "Cab Sim" - because a speaker cabinet clearly is a LPF. But it also rolls off the lows, so it's really a band pass filter. But it also has resonances and formants - so it's a very peaky broadband filter - hard to nail with analog electronics. And the different frequencies are time-delayed by different amounts - which is why the IR files are relatively long.

Some people might find that a Sansamp or Sansamp clone like the Joyo can get quite close. But used with a cabinet IR - I don't think anyone could tell the difference. They might get lucky, but I think in blind AB trials most people could be fooled, even mastering engineers.
Old 10th July 2017
  #11
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bgood's Avatar
Joyo American
Amplitube 4 with both fender collections
S-Gear
UAD

And/or... Fender Mustang series amps... Really great little studio tool
Old 10th July 2017
  #12
Here for the gear
 

Thanks for all your replies!

Man... I spent a good chunk of the day yesterday and tried all of your suggestions (including the Joyo American which a buddy of mine was able to lend me.) and they all sound pretty great! They all obviously each bring a slightly different flavour to the table but technology has definitely come a long way.

Now just a matter of deciding which one to get....

Get them all "slutz" style? Haha...always great being a gear head.
Old 10th July 2017
  #13
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bgood's Avatar
I dig using the joyo into amp sims
Old 10th July 2017
  #14
Here for the gear
 

Agreed. The Joyo does put out some nice sounding tones..

In the end after playing around with everything, I decided to grab the Fender Collection 2 for Amplitude.

The whole collection sounds pretty damn incredible, especially the '57 Custom Twin Deluxe and the Super Reverb... IK Multimedia have been putting out some great products the last couple years or so. It's got a tone that goes from buttery smooth to kick you in the mouth crunch.... and it's got a realistic feel dynamics wise compared to their older models.

I honestly think even the people who love S-Gear so much may love it if they tried it out... (I like it slightly more actually.. ).. though I feel like I may be stepping on sacred ground saying that.
Old 11th July 2017
  #15
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Owen L T's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
I dig using the joyo into amp sims
Do you then use just/mainly the cab part of the amp sims?

Do you find it helps with the playing side of things? I'm used to tracking straight DI, and accepting that the playing experience (strictly rhythm, very on the grid, basically pop) will be ... a means to an end, and it doesn't bug me. But I can also imagine that hearing a more guitar like tone while tracking could add something to the feel of th playing - though more so in your stuff, I expect, which has a ton of feel to it.

The tone I dial in is almost always on the fringes of clean; that very 2012-ish pop tone that is just beginning to break up, but not so much that it would scare any tweenage girls who might be listening. The idea of having a hardware unit that forms the core of the sound is kind of appealing. (Guitar is Fender Strat, mostly in the neck pickup position.)
Old 11th July 2017
  #16
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen L T View Post
Do you then use just/mainly the cab part of the amp sims?

Do you find it helps with the playing side of things? I'm used to tracking straight DI, and accepting that the playing experience (strictly rhythm, very on the grid, basically pop) will be ... a means to an end, and it doesn't bug me. But I can also imagine that hearing a more guitar like tone while tracking could add something to the feel of th playing - though more so in your stuff, I expect, which has a ton of feel to it.

The tone I dial in is almost always on the fringes of clean; that very 2012-ish pop tone that is just beginning to break up, but not so much that it would scare any tweenage girls who might be listening. The idea of having a hardware unit that forms the core of the sound is kind of appealing. (Guitar is Fender Strat, mostly in the neck pickup position.)
Yes... But be advised that the joyos cab sim is always on... The sansamp has a can emu bypass

That being said, I'm not a purist... So, whatever sounds good!
Old 11th July 2017
  #17
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Owen L T's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
Yes... But be advised that the joyos cab sim is always on... The sansamp has a can emu bypass

That being said, I'm not a purist... So, whatever sounds good!
Thank - that's good to know. I'd read conflicting reports on whether the Joyo pedal was even attempting to simulate the cab as well - with a few threads suggesting it was an amp sim only. But looks like it is indeed amp + cab.

So, in that case, when you mentioned using this as well as S-Gear (and others), do you mean you usually run the Joyo'd sound through an amp (and cab) sim as a full-on insert, or as more of a parallel thing?
Old 11th July 2017
  #18
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen L T View Post
Thank - that's good to know. I'd read conflicting reports on whether the Joyo pedal was even attempting to simulate the cab as well - with a few threads suggesting it was an amp sim only. But looks like it is indeed amp + cab.

So, in that case, when you mentioned using this as well as S-Gear (and others), do you mean you usually run the Joyo'd sound through an amp (and cab) sim as a full-on insert, or as more of a parallel thing?
Gtr > pedal > preamp > interface > amp sim

The cab sim in the pedal is a simple eq curve... Nothing very fancy..
Old 11th July 2017
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
Yet another useful post from John. May as well shoot yourself now.

Or get the Sansamp Blonde or the Joyo clone. The Kemper is an expensive solution that isn't necessary for DAW recording if you use your convolution reverb with some good IR files of speaker cabs.

The Blonde will give you a good clean analog amp sound with some tube-like warmth and the cab IR will finish it off. I much prefer it to any digital amp model i've found so far.
But none of those actually sound like a Twin.

You always come up with compromise solutions that you believe are "good enough" - and they probably are to your ear. Which is fine for you I guess.

The thing is, it would appear that I hear things that you don't.

It's a matter of ear training and exposure to critical listening situations.

If it were not for the fact that he's trying to replace the real thing and has already expressed dissatisfaction with some of the common sims I wouldn't be so critical about it, but a real blackface Twin is a difficult thing to replace - there are lots of subtleties to it that are beyond the capabilities of any sim I've ever heard of. A person who is used to using sims and Line 6 stuff won't pick up on that. If a Line 6 amp is good enough for you, you definitely don't get what makes a classic Twin special.

In the OP's situation I'd be looking into getting a blackface Deluxe Reverb and a good iso box.
Old 11th July 2017
  #20
For clean and sparkle, I have only found one way to do it...

Hughes & Kettner Tubeman + Electro Harmonix Blackfinger

The Joyo, Sansamp and Ethos never got the sound that I associated with Fender amps. They all sounded slightly overdriven, fine, but solid state. If you want a clean, bright, chiming tube sound, you have to get tube preamps.
Old 11th July 2017
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
I agree. And one mans "sparkle" is anothr mans "fizz".
Man, if you don't know the difference between "sparkle" and "fizz" you have a really serious problem.

"Sparkle" is generally a function of a clean amplifier, which is something the Twin Reverb excels at, perhaps more than any mass produced amplifier.

"Fizz", however, is a type of somewhat dissonant high frequency distortion, commonly found in the sort of high gain amplifiers favored by many metal bands and the like.

The only thing that "Sparkle" and "fizz" have in common is that they involve high frequencies. Other than that they're pretty much exact opposites of each other - "Sparkle" is all about clarity" while "fizz" has nothing to do with a clear, clean tone.

Unless you're talking about beverages, of course, where the terms are interchangeable in some circles. As far as I know, this is not the beverage forum.

Quote:
If we wanted dynamic range and attack we would use ultra-fast soiid state DI's. (And some players do, for country and funk).

But the truth is, we expect electric guitars to be compressed - if not by a tube amp with saggy power tubes and the phase coloration of transformers and the inertia of accelerating a heavy speaker cone to push air molecules into action ... then by a compressor. And/or mag tape.
Erm, he's a TWIN REVERB PLAYER. That SHOULD tell you something, if you know anything at all about amps and musical styles.

What a Twin player is after is probably NOT what you're after. What you've just described is pretty much the opposite of what a Twin does, unless you're pushing it so loud it blows all the windows and doors out of your building.

Quote:
The tones that I desire from guitars are not dynamic or sharp in attack. They are smeared to hell and back by multiple analog stages, delaying the highs far more than the lows. This rounds off the transients and makes it more smooth around the ears.

I understand why the old school cowboys liked their clean-ER high-ER headroom amps ... it's because the old electronics could take it too far in the smeary direction. So certain high voltage circuits could get the desired clean twang by being less smeary than other stuff.

But with modern digital recording and transformerless electronics, amp sims are really struggling to get as smeary and compressed as the old stuff could get.

Something like the Blonde or American achieve the EQ shape and smooth saturation of a tube amp rather well. That's why it is hard to tell the difference in A/B tests - especially if slathered with reverb. I can tell the difference because I have both tube amps incuding Fender, and many Sansamps and many digital amps too.
Once again, if he's looking to duplicate the characteristics of a Twin Reverb, I seriously doubt that he's looking for saturation. Twins don't generally saturate much a sane volume levels.

Quote:
The thing that makes the difference disappearingly small is convolution of IR files taken with good gear. The whole thing about these is time domain ...

A simple Low Pass Filter is often used as an analog "Cab Sim" - because a speaker cabinet clearly is a LPF. But it also rolls off the lows, so it's really a band pass filter. But it also has resonances and formants - so it's a very peaky broadband filter - hard to nail with analog electronics. And the different frequencies are time-delayed by different amounts - which is why the IR files are relatively long.
I'd agree with this pretty much, except that I have yet to hear ANY electronic cab simulation that was really convincing in some situations. It tends to be more convincing when distortion is involved and yes, digital convolution works a lot better than any of the conventional analog circuits, which are almost always pretty simple low-pass filters.

Quote:
Some people might find that a Sansamp or Sansamp clone like the Joyo can get quite close. But used with a cabinet IR - I don't think anyone could tell the difference. They might get lucky, but I think in blind AB trials most people could be fooled,
Well, it depends a lot on the style of music and the type of playing. I'm pretty certain that I could tell the difference with the types of music where you usually find Twin Reverbs these days and I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't be alone, either. You don't find many Twins in the styles of "modern" music that you seem to favor - they're too loud when they finally start breaking up and too clean when the don't. And they don't "fizz", they sparkle (unless you're using the horrible master volume control they added in the '70s, but since his was a '65 I doubt that's relevant.)

Quote:
even mastering engineers.
Well, I guess it depends on what you call a "mastering engineer". These days there are a lot of people advertising themselves as "mastering engineers" who aren't qualified to take out the garbage in a real mastering facility. Myself, I wouldn't hire a mastering engineer who couldn't hear the difference.
Old 11th July 2017
  #22
Kiwi recommended the TC Sentry, which was helpful with a little of the noise from the tubes going direct. You can hear the clean tube sound in the 2nd half of this video. This is direct with no amp. Sorry about the annoying click.

Old 11th July 2017
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by baskervils View Post
For clean and sparkle, I have only found one way to do it...

Hughes & Kettner Tubeman + Electro Harmonix Blackfinger

The Joyo, Sansamp and Ethos never got the sound that I associated with Fender amps. They all sounded slightly overdriven, fine, but solid state. If you want a clean, bright, chiming tube sound, you have to get tube preamps.
Interesting suggestion, although I haven't tried it. Sounds worth checking out.
Old 11th July 2017
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Meh. Dynamic range and attack are overrated in a recording setup. The biggest problem in recording guitar amps is keeping the dynamic range and attack within the confines of the recording medium. If a sim designed for recording has less dynamic range and attack than the real thing, then that's GOOD.
Modern digital converters have a dynamic range around 120dB. There is NO PROBLEM keeping anything within that dynamic range if you know anything at all about gain staging. If you have a problem it's not the recording medium that's at fault.
Old 11th July 2017
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Modern digital converters have a dynamic range around 120dB. There is NO PROBLEM keeping anything within that dynamic range if you know anything at all about gain staging. If you have a problem it's not the recording medium that's at fault.
My point was. Large dynamic range is not required to record music. Claiming that digital simulations are lacking because they lack the same dynamic range and attack as tube amps is a spurious claim.

Anthony
Old 11th July 2017
  #26
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ThorSouthshire's Avatar
You don't need the dynamics because you're gonna record extreme dynamics in the song. You need them to get precision in the feedback you get from playing the guitar so you can deliver your best performance. It's the same way in a real piano vs samples for instance. You can probably not hear it in the mix, save for the performance, which will be worse, and a great performance is more or less the entire song!
Old 11th July 2017
  #27
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Bob Ross's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Meh. Dynamic range and attack are overrated in a recording setup. The biggest problem in recording guitar amps is keeping the dynamic range and attack within the confines of the recording medium. If a sim designed for recording has less dynamic range and attack than the real thing, then that's GOOD.

Well... Not sure I agree that dynamic range and attack are overrated. But I will say that dynamic range and attack aren't the first things that I deem missing when I hear an emulated/modeled Fender Twin Reverb.

The thing a Twin does that I've never heard any amp simulator provide is that huge lumbering subharmonic "THUMP" that accompanies every note. It turns even the lightest gauge guitar strings into bridge cables wrapped in 3" thick sheets of Silly Putty.
Old 11th July 2017
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
My point was. Large dynamic range is not required to record music. Claiming that digital simulations are lacking because they lack the same dynamic range and attack as tube amps is a spurious claim.

Anthony
Ah! You are quite correct. Audio recordings only use a relative small amount of the dynamic range available with modern digital recording gear. Hell, most of it only uses part of the range available on professional tape recorders!

Dynamic range isn't the problem with simulations. The problem is that there's a lot of stuff that is ignored as "unimportant" in the making of simulations, some because it's difficult to program, some because it's extremely difficult to analyze properly. Most companies do not feel that going after that level of quality is not a good allocation of development resources because they believe that the bulk of their market won't appreciate it and the money is better spent on "features" which will sell software. Adding new "features" will sell many more copies of new software versions than advertising "improved audio quality". And they're probably quite right because if what I see around here is any fair indication - and I believe it is - most of the people using such software can't really hear the difference, for whatever reason.

I would, however like to point out that dynamic range isn't the same issue as correctly duplicating dynamic behavior. Dynamic range is a hardware attribute. Dynamic behavior is a programming problem.
Old 12th July 2017
  #29
Registered User
From now on i'm going to call the grumpy old man "Sparkles" in the hope it cheers him up.

Digital has waay more bandwidth and dynamic range and freedom from distortion than a Fender Twin amp. That's the problem which amp sims are trying to solve.

Personally - I still prefer analog, and if tube amps aren't an option then I really love my JFET based Sansamps. They limit the bandwidth and dynamic range and provide equphonic distortion - and I think Tech21 have done a rather good job of modeling the amps they are trying to model.

I don't think they have done a good job of modeling cabs ... simply using a LPF is close but no cigar. That's where convolution of real cabinet IR's works extremely well. So well that many modern players are not bothering to mic their amps anymore. It's perfectly viable and a valid artistic choice for making music. With or without the approval of grumpy old men.
Old 12th July 2017
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
I don't think they have done a good job of modeling cabs ... simply using a LPF is close but no cigar. That's where convolution of real cabinet IR's works extremely well. So well that many modern players are not bothering to mic their amps anymore. It's perfectly viable and a valid artistic choice for making music. With or without the approval of grumpy old men.
After having an expertly calibrated 70s Fender tube amp, I have been chasing that sound ever since. I am always willing to try more sims, but I don't think that it is possible to get a clean tube guitar sound without tubes. Luckily, there are some great tube pres (mentioned above) that really do the job. These things are surprisingly under-heralded.
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