The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Guitars for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Acoustic Guitars 'Opening Up'
Old 1 week ago
  #91
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Maybe it wasn't the best analogy.

When you have a house, you'll eventually need a new roof, new paint, new driveway, water heater, furnace, AC, termite tenting... the 60-year-old water line from the street rusted out last year. I caught a break on that one because I live in a place where they don't have to run pipes below the frost line, so the ditch in my front yard was only 4 feet deep, not 8.

When you have an older acoustic guitar, you'll eventually need a neck reset. Not so bad by comparison.
Well, this particular guitar was a lower end model - a Korean built Epiphone from the mid-80s. I think that had more to do with the neck separation than anything else.

I have owned older acoustics that needed no such repair.
Old 1 week ago
  #92
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
So much audio voodoo...

I picked up a 70s epiphone MIJ Texan type acoustic... An old friend came over the other day and started playing it... Apparently it was his 1st gtr he got as a kid in the early 70s... He kept commenting about how this gtr sounded so much bigger and bloomy it was compared to his 45 year old memory of his 1st gtr...

I honestly can't imagine that this old girl sounded that much different when she was brand new. But, whatever! Sounds good is good, right?!
Are you sure it's not a solid top?
Old 1 week ago
  #93
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Gearslutz - the place where internet myths are kept alive

"Older is always better!"

...except when it is a laminate, because then the wood doesn't age. Wood knows when it has been glued to other pieces of wood and refuses to age under those demeaning conditions! (And in a laminate guitar of course the glue doesn't crystallize in the same way as it cures over 50 years of time...)
Nobody ever said "older is always better." And speaking of "better" you "better" stop licken' them frogs...


Old junk is just that - old JUNK.

There's a big difference in between wood being coated with glue over a small edge of relatively low surface area and having the wood covered entirely on both faces (or even just one.) And there's a big difference between types of adhesive.
Old 1 week ago
  #94
Lives for gear
 
grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
And there's a big difference between types of adhesive.
Oh, you are another one who can hear the differences between different types of adhesive used in a guitar.
Old 1 week ago
  #95
Lives for gear
 
bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Are you sure it's not a solid top?
It's an MIJ epi ft 120 from about 1976... So, maybe this one is solid top... Hmm... Oh well, I shan't let my poor example that contradicts my core point influence my position. It is GS after all. Lol
Old 1 week ago
  #96
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Oh, you are another one who can hear the differences between different types of adhesive used in a guitar.
Did you actually SAY that?

Different adhesives damp materials they're applied to differently. This is related to a number of factors. YES, ANYBODY can hear the difference between certain adhesives (ever heard of Green Glue?), as well as hearing the difference between a thin glue joint as fond on a guitar brace and very wide glue joint between different woods opf opposing grain like a piece of plywood ("laminated wood"). You don't need to be a genius or a materials scientist to understand this - anybody who has done a reasonable amount of carpentry/;cabinetmaking beyond the crudest, most rudimentary stage understands this.

You continue to surpass yourself. It's not even amusing anymore.
Old 1 week ago
  #97
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
It's an MIJ epi ft 120 from about 1976... So, maybe this one is solid top... Hmm... Oh well, I shan't let my poor example that contradicts my core point influence my position. It is GS after all. Lol
I don't know if it might be or not. You can usually tell by looking at the edge of the wood in the sound hole. Laminated tops usually show 3 layers, some might only be 2, but AFAIK most are 3.
Old 1 week ago
  #98
Lives for gear
 
bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I don't know if it might be or not. You can usually tell by looking at the edge of the wood in the sound hole. Laminated tops usually show 3 layers, some might only be 2, but AFAIK most are 3.
I'll check her out and rpt back... I love her... Still haven't figured out the best way to mic it... Boomy!
Old 1 week ago
  #99
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
I'll check her out and rpt back... I love her... Still haven't figured out the best way to mic it... Boomy!
Try using a cardioid LDC pulled about a foot and a half to two feet back from the guitar (If it sounds good in the room - if it doesn't nothing can help much.) If you don't have a decent LDC an SDC will do.

With the mic moved back there won't be problems with proximity effect (which makes things boomy) and the tone will be more balanced. You will, of course get some room tone but with a mic with decent off-axis response this shouldn't be a problem as long as you pay attention to what you position in the room sounds like. Avoid using a 57 - their off-axis response sounds bad.
Old 1 week ago
  #100
Gear Guru
 
Unclenny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
the difference between certain adhesives (ever heard of Green Glue?)
Actually, fwiw, Green Glue is not a real adhesive. It is a viscoelastic damping agent.

....now back to our most excellent discussion.....

Old 1 week ago
  #101
Lives for gear
 
bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Try using a cardioid LDC pulled about a foot and a half to two feet back from the guitar (If it sounds good in the room - if it doesn't nothing can help much.) If you don't have a decent LDC an SDC will do.

With the mic moved back there won't be problems with proximity effect (which makes things boomy) and the tone will be more balanced. You will, of course get some room tone but with a mic with decent off-axis response this shouldn't be a problem as long as you pay attention to what you position in the room sounds like. Avoid using a 57 - their off-axis response sounds bad.
Thx john... My songwriting partner/gtr player and BFF selfishly died recently, so I'm having to dive into the deep end with all this gtr stuff!
Old 1 week ago
  #102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclenny View Post
Actually, fwiw, Green Glue is not a real adhesive. It is a viscoelastic damping agent.

....now back to our most excellent discussion.....

It IS a glue*. It also has the properties of a damping agent, which was my point. (Yes, I did choose it as an extreme example.) There are many adhesives that have damping properties to a greater or lesser degree**. Nearly all adhesives that dry/cure to a flexible or elastic state exhibit significant damping properties and they are not alone. This includes all rubber based and many polymer based glues. Most epoxies provide some degree of damping, especially when applied over a large surface.

In a plywood type material, the structure consists of alternating sheets of wood glue together with the grain running at 90 degree angles between sheets. This alone provides a significant amount of damping - one of the main properties that makes wood a resonant material is the parallel grain structure -regardless of the adhesive used to glue the sheets together. This same structure is what gives plywood its superior strength over most solid woods.



* - It sure does a good job of sticking sheets of drywall together!

** - Take a crystal wine glass that rings if you tap it. Give it a coating of rubber cement or polymer based glue and let it dry. Tap it and see how well it rings.

Most glues have damping properties.
Old 1 week ago
  #103
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
Thx john... My songwriting partner/gtr player and BFF selfishly died recently, so I'm having to dive into the deep end with all this gtr stuff!
My condolences on your loss...
Old 1 week ago
  #104
Gear Guru
 
Unclenny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Most glues have damping properties.
Didn't mean to poke, John.

You are absolutely right about adhesives having a damping component.

My day job has me dialoging with folks across the country about sound control in construction and adhesives play a part in helping to damp the resonance of floor planes and the like.

Green Glue sure does stick drywall together....but it never really quite sets up. The drywall still needs to be screwed to the wall.

How does the use of hide glue figure into this equation with guitars? Is it a more resilient bond? Does it give the instrument a different (better?) voice?
Old 1 week ago
  #105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclenny View Post
Didn't mean to poke, John.

You are absolutely right about adhesives having a damping component.

My day job has me dialoging with folks across the country about sound control in construction and adhesives play a part in helping to damp the resonance of floor planes and the like.

Green Glue sure does stick drywall together....but it never really quite sets up. The drywall still needs to be screwed to the wall.

How does the use of hide glue figure into this equation with guitars? Is it a more resilient bond? Does it give the instrument a different (better?) voice?
<chuckle>

I believe that hide glue has less damping than most other glues, which is why it's preferred for musical instruments. When you think about it the properties needed in such a glue are pretty specific - it needs to be stiff enough to provide good energy transfer but not so stiff as to resist vibration or impart a bandpass characteristic. Hide glue is also generally applied either along thin lines, as in glue a top to sides, or in gluing vary chunky parts together, as in a neck joint. The only place I can think of where it's applied over a significant area on a flat, vibrating surface is in a bridge mounting, and there what it's doing is coupling a "driving motor" (the strings )to a resonating plate; the actual bridge parts don't resonate, they just transmit vibration between parts.

Remember that the actual subject of this discussion was whether or not plywood tops age in and "open up" - my feeling is that the large area of glue between thin sheets with opposing grain discourages resonance in general to some degree, and also works against additional curing of the wood by effectively sealing the large flat surfaces from which most evaporation would take place - especially in a 3 layer top n which the center layer would be effectively sealed over virtually all its area. Even the edges would be sealed, not by the glue of lamination but by the glue holding the instrument together. In my observation plywood does not lose weight with age to nearly the same degree as solid wood.
Old 1 week ago
  #106
Lives for gear
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclenny View Post
How does the use of hide glue figure into this equation with guitars? Is it a more resilient bond?
I only know hide glue from furniture-type woodworking, not guitars, but good hide glue makes a fabulously resilient bond that grabs like crazy, yet will let go if you heat it up. Bad hide glue dries out and crystallizes and then isn't glue anymore.

Quote:
Take a crystal wine glass that rings if you tap it. Give it a coating of rubber cement or polymer based glue and let it dry. Tap it and see how well it rings.
Do the same thing with hide glue and see what happens. Hint: don't use a glass you care about.
Old 1 week ago
  #107
Here for the gear
 

I think the general consensus is that instruments definitely change in sound with age, due to changes in the wood as it ages as well as changes in the materials used to put it together. (Perhaps the top reason hide glue is preferred for high-end and elderly instruments is that it is the only adhesive known that is perfectly repairable. You might get an ancient Stradivarius to sound better reassembling it with epoxy, but it could never be repaired again in the future...)

But there are two items I have a problem with. The first is that change is always to the good. I don't accept that aging always makes an instrument sound better. And I do not accept that playing an instrument makes it sound better. I don't even believe it changes it either way.

Except when it comes to strings. Everyone knows they change sound over time when played. They always go from bright to dull. I personally don't like the sound of brand new strings. I need to play them a bit to dampen them out a bit. Yet I don't like them dull. For me there is a window of best sound. Others may disagree.
Old 1 week ago
  #108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffw5555 View Post
I think the general consensus is that instruments definitely change in sound with age, due to changes in the wood as it ages as well as changes in the materials used to put it together. (Perhaps the top reason hide glue is preferred for high-end and elderly instruments is that it is the only adhesive known that is perfectly repairable. You might get an ancient Stradivarius to sound better reassembling it with epoxy, but it could never be repaired again in the future...)
No. Epoxy would tend to damp the resonance.

Quote:
But there are two items I have a problem with. The first is that change is always to the good. I don't accept that aging always makes an instrument sound better.
Maybe so. Perhaps somewhere in the universe there is an instrument made from solid wood (or the local equivalent on an alien planet), but in over half a century of playing and working on guitars (I'm a repair tech, not a real luthier) I have never, ever, observed that to be the case. Ever. Unless, of course, you think a cardboard box has superior tone to an instrument constructed of aged fine woods. That's not to say that all old instruments sound great, or even good - but in my experience if an old instrument doesn't sound good now, it sounded even worse when it was new. Sometimes an old piece of junk is just that - an old piece of junk.

In my experience aging ALWAYS makes a solid wood instrument sound better - but sometimes "better" is not good enough.

Quote:
And I do not accept that playing an instrument makes it sound better. I don't even believe it changes it either way.
That's not as clear cut. I'm willing to venture that it might, but there are too many variables to make a definitive statement.

Quote:
Except when it comes to strings. Everyone knows they change sound over time when played. They always go from bright to dull. I personally don't like the sound of brand new strings. I need to play them a bit to dampen them out a bit. Yet I don't like them dull. For me there is a window of best sound. Others may disagree.
Well, if you don't like strings that actually play in tune, have good intonation, consistency, and good tonal balance that's up to you, I guess. But you're not likely to get much studio work.

Maybe you shouldn't pick so close to the bridge...
Old 1 week ago
  #109
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Try using a cardioid LDC pulled about a foot and a half to two feet back from the guitar (If it sounds good in the room - if it doesn't nothing can help much.) If you don't have a decent LDC an SDC will do.

With the mic moved back there won't be problems with proximity effect (which makes things boomy) and the tone will be more balanced. You will, of course get some room tone but with a mic with decent off-axis response this shouldn't be a problem as long as you pay attention to what you position in the room sounds like. Avoid using a 57 - their off-axis response sounds bad.
Also try pointing the mic not at the soundhole, but more like the 12th fret. Aiming the mic differently can give you a lot of tonal options and may reduce the boominess. Taste is subjective, so move the mic until it sounds good to you.
Old 1 week ago
  #110
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedorama View Post
Also try pointing the mic not at the soundhole, but more like the 12th fret. Aiming the mic differently can give you a lot of tonal options and may reduce the boominess. Taste is subjective, so move the mic until it sounds good to you.
Yes, it depends on what you're after. The common fad now is close micing the guitar, which exaggerates to tone of whatever spot the mic happens to be pointing. It also exaggerates any movements that player may make while recording. It also often causes people to use more than one mic, which can cause comb filtering problems, especially when both mics are close.

The thing is this - how many people do you know who actually listen to an acoustic guitar with their ear only 2" from the strings? Nobody, that's who, not even the player, whose ear is generally 1 or 2 feet from most of the body of the instrument. Being that close gives an unnatural "picture" of the sound of the instrument.

A guitar is an instrument that radiates different frequency ranges from different parts of the instrument. The output of these different sounds come together and coalesces into what the listener perceives as the tone of the instrument at a distance of somewhere between a foot-and-a half and 2 feet, so a mic placed at this range of distance will pick up a more balanced sound of the instrument, similar to what a listener might hear. The distance also tends to minimize the effects of small position movements made by the player. It also eliminates the problem of boominess caused by the interaction of the mic's proximity effect with the resonance of the sound hole.

It does, of course, also pick up some room sound. Room sound (contrary to a lot of the "conventional wisdom" floating around) is not a bad thing unless you're stuck with a really horrible room,. which most are not. If the guitar sounds good playing in the room, room sound should not be a problem. HOWEVER what can really be a problem is what happens when room sound is picked up by a mic with poor off-axis frequency response. Very often what is assumed by home recordists to be the effects of a bad tracking room are actually the result of the room sound being picked up by a mic with horrible off-axis response. One of those mics is "the most popular mic in the world". You know which one I mean. Most inexpensive Chinese condensers also have bad off axis response. So use a good mic - I usually use a quality LDC (AKG C12A, Pearlman TM-1, Neumann U87) or a Neumann KM84 SDC (NOT a 184), but there are less costly mics that will do a good job.
Old 6 days ago
  #111
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
So use a good mic - I usually use a quality LDC (AKG C12A, Pearlman TM-1, Neumann U87) or a Neumann KM84 SDC (NOT a 184), but there are less costly mics that will do a good job.
This goes without saying - the ones you've mentioned are excellent mics, but also with the accompanying pricetag.

John if you have recommendations for hobbyists like me on something in the $500 range would be appreciated. Can't quit my day job, so for the time being I've got my dynamics; condensers I have a Shure KSM27 and 2 A-T Pro37's (bought for PA use on hi-hat/OH). I know there's better out there, but can't swing the price of a $1K+ mic, although if it's that big of a quality jump I'll just save more.

thanks.
Old 6 days ago
  #112
Lives for gear
 
Hermetech Mastering's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Advanced Audio do pretty nice mics at reasonable prices. Been using their CM48T to record my acoustic recently, with great results. $600. Caveat: I've never used anything more expensive than that in my own studio.
Old 6 days ago
  #113
Lives for gear
 
kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Oh, you are another one who can hear the differences between different types of adhesive used in a guitar.
FWIW, I'm with your even though different glues can have effects on the sound of a guitar. But it's not like you can listen to a guitar and say "HIDE!" or "ELMERS!"

Like jeeeeeeze! How much glue you guys putting in a guitar. I've built a number of acoustics, and the amount of glue I use on the body (that thing that resonates) is miniscule. I'm pretty sure that I could build two 28's, identical wood as possible, and use a strong wood glue on one and hide on the other. Of course, they will sound a bit different, but how much of that is due to the glue? Guaranteed, not much. It's like saying two Ferrari's, can one go faster because of leather interior or cloth. Or... dare I even say.... two Teles, one with nitro finish and the other with a thin poly finish. Does the nitro sound "better?" Man, that's gonna be up in the air.

Mass dampens resonance, so the lighter glue will allow more resonance. Basic physics. I use hide glue because I can heat it and disassemble a guitar. Every try that with wood glue? You'll pull the wood apart.

Regarding guitars sounding better with age, I don't buy it. Depends far more on how the guitar has been cared for. How could anyone possible do an empirical experiment over 20 years with a large variety of guitars and owners, climate conditions, changing climate, original build quality, same guitars with different woods, etc... all of the things that determine how a guitar changes over time, that confirms this is true. It's totally impossible.

People think it's true. that's all. Subjective, anecdotal evidence, 100%. Blind faith. Don't even bother arguing religion, so if one thinks it's true, cool. Makes no difference in the long plan.
Old 6 days ago
  #114
Lives for gear
 
grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
FWIW, I'm with your even though different glues can have effects on the sound of a guitar. But it's not like you can listen to a guitar and say "HIDE!" or "ELMERS!"

Like jeeeeeeze! How much glue you guys putting in a guitar. I've built a number of acoustics, and the amount of glue I use on the body (that thing that resonates) is miniscule. I'm pretty sure that I could build two 28's, identical wood as possible, and use a strong wood glue on one and hide on the other. Of course, they will sound a bit different, but how much of that is due to the glue? Guaranteed, not much. It's like saying two Ferrari's, can one go faster because of leather interior or cloth. Or... dare I even say.... two Teles, one with nitro finish and the other with a thin poly finish. Does the nitro sound "better?" Man, that's gonna be up in the air.

Mass dampens resonance, so the lighter glue will allow more resonance. Basic physics. I use hide glue because I can heat it and disassemble a guitar. Every try that with wood glue? You'll pull the wood apart.

Regarding guitars sounding better with age, I don't buy it. Depends far more on how the guitar has been cared for. How could anyone possible do an empirical experiment over 20 years with a large variety of guitars and owners, climate conditions, changing climate, original build quality, same guitars with different woods, etc... all of the things that determine how a guitar changes over time, that confirms this is true. It's totally impossible.

People think it's true. that's all. Subjective, anecdotal evidence, 100%. Blind faith. Don't even bother arguing religion, so if one thinks it's true, cool. Makes no difference in the long plan.
Well, in a laminate guitar there is obviously going to be a lot more glue than in a solid wood one, so i guess it is fair enough to debate whether the type of glue makes a difference in such a scenario.


But yes, the problem with all of this aging/breaking in is that it is mostly a discussion based on subjective and anecdotal claims.

Let's hear a recording of the OP's guitar done ten years from now (preferrably with the same gear and in the same room) so that we can hear the effect of aging :D
Old 6 days ago
  #115
Lives for gear
 

I don't care what anyone says, most guitars with a solid top will sound better after being played for a few years. Like someone said, by vibrating a lot they seem to get better at vibrating.

My Larrivee OM-3R that sounded like a dud when I bought it from this guy who had never played it for 10yrs. After playing it a lot for a few years, it sounds like a champ. It corroborates my intuition that it is not about the wood drying up but about being played a lot. For a solid body electric guitar in other hand I have never noticed much difference even after 20 years of playing.
Old 6 days ago
  #116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermetech Mastering View Post
Advanced Audio do pretty nice mics at reasonable prices. Been using their CM48T to record my acoustic recently, with great results. $600. Caveat: I've never used anything more expensive than that in my own studio.
I'm on another site frequented by some very good people who nonetheless don't always have the budget (although they do have the GAS) for the more costly mics. These are people working at the mid levels of the professional side of music (with the occasional "name" dropping by.) The name Advanced Audio comes up quite frequently and is well thought of. I have not used them myself.

The other nting I can suggest is to frequent the classifieds, especially on some of the less well known forums. I scored my KM84 on one of them for $1,000, which is about $500 under market from a guy who needed to raise some fast cash.
Old 6 days ago
  #117
Quote:
Originally Posted by numero6 View Post
I don't care what anyone says, most guitars with a solid top will sound better after being played for a few years. Like someone said, by vibrating a lot they seem to get better at vibrating.

My Larrivee OM-3R that sounded like a dud when I bought it from this guy who had never played it for 10yrs. After playing it a lot for a few years, it sounds like a champ. It corroborates my intuition that it is not about the wood drying up but about being played a lot. For a solid body electric guitar in other hand I have never noticed much difference even after 20 years of playing.
I have not noticed much difference between old guitars that were played a lot and other guitars of the same age and quality, but that could simply be because all the old guitars I've owned have been played a lot, either by their owners or from being in stores. Therefore I'm not saying it's true but I'm also not saying it's impossible, either.

I will say that not all old guitars have the same quality wood in the top, even from the best brands. A lot of Vietnam era guitars had wood of visibly lower quality in the tops - wide, lose, somewhat irregular grain spacing, etc. Those guitars have aged enough to sound good, but not quite as good as the same models from, for example, the late '50s or very early '60s.
Old 6 days ago
  #118
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Well, in a laminate guitar there is obviously going to be a lot more glue than in a solid wood one, so i guess it is fair enough to debate whether the type of glue makes a difference in such a scenario.
It's also that the glue in a laminated top is between laminations so damping effects are more pronounced and the glue interferes with the drying process (center laminations are effectively sealed), and laminated woods are constructed with grain in alternate layers arranged at 90 degree angles, so the layers don't vibrate together. It makes for a stronger piece of wood but a less resonant one.
Old 6 days ago
  #119
Lives for gear
 
grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by numero6 View Post
by vibrating a lot they seem to get better at vibrating.
Yeah man, it's... you know, like... cosmic and karma and real deep stuff. Keep on spreading those god vibes, man... *puff puff*


Oh yeah, and 432 hz!
Old 5 days ago
  #120
Lives for gear
 
grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
It's also that the glue in a laminated top is between laminations so damping effects are more pronounced and the glue interferes with the drying process (center laminations are effectively sealed), and laminated woods are constructed with grain in alternate layers arranged at 90 degree angles, so the layers don't vibrate together. It makes for a stronger piece of wood but a less resonant one.
I am not going to dispute that a laminate will sound different from a solid piece of wood, in the same way that i wouldn't dispute that a cedar top will not sound like a spruce top.

But even a car laquer such as used on guitars does not keep the wood sealed, so glue most certainly isn't going to do that.
The wood in a laminate will behave like any other wood in an instrument, how could it otherwise?
There is no natural law saying that only solid pieces of wood can age.
...then again, there is that magic where the wood somehow senses that it is part of a laminate... *puff puff*

But i mean, you do not even understand that wood does not "dry out" as it ages but is in a constant state of equilibrium with the moisture content of its surroundings, so there really isn't much room for discussion here...
Loading mentioned products ...
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+  Submit Thread to Reddit Reddit 
 
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get instant access to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump