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Toto's "Rosanna" Comparison of a raw track, the mix, and the master?
Old 8th February 2017
  #1
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Thread Starter
Toto's "Rosanna" Comparison of a raw track, the mix, and the master?

I picked this song because there are some isolated tracks of most of the instruments on YT (I'll link below).

Now, when I listen to Lukather's isolated guitar track, it's very "high-endy" to me, in some places "ice-picky". In general, when there's any higher gain on, it's "sizzly". It's very "clanky" on the clean parts - sounds like active pickups - typical bright 80s studio tone...

But when I hear the final product, those parts don't sound that way to me

Now, I know that this isolated "track" is really a number of tracks - they've basically combined the guitar parts into one - er - track for us to hear all of them.

But what I'm trying to get out is, is this actually the "raw" guitar tracks "as they sound" on the master tape?

Or, is this isolated track a "soloed" version of the mixed tracks (summed) with the same kind of EQ and compression etc. that was likely applied before it was sent to be mastered.

Or, is the lack of "sizzlyness" I don't hear in the final product a product of the mastering (more EQ) or mixing (more EQ) stages.

Or, is it simply "masking", where those same "sizzly" sounds are still present, they're just covered up by all the other sonic information going on?

I would think if the last were true, when I listen to something like the intro to Jethro Tull's "Aqualung", since it's by itself and there's no other instruments to mask it, it should sound "more sizzly" than later in the song when it's covered up. I'd have to re-listen, but I don't seem to remember it that way.

In fact - while guitar tones run the gamut - most commercially released guitar distorted tones don't sound "sizzly" to me - be I think we're all familiar the typical thing the home recording guitarist (which is what I am) encounters - you put mics on the amp and run it into your DAW, or you use a modeller. And they're always "fizzy".

So what I'm getting at is, is this fizz OK and in fact commonplace in raw tracks, and during the mixdown process and ultimately the mastering process, it just becomes less noticeable (or is there some magic fairy dust going on?).

Now there are absolutely a few other isolated guitar tracks I've hear - Dire Straits' "Sultans of Swing" and I have to say it's pretty much darn just like the original song, except that in that case there are some quieter "ghost notes" and noises that are actually covered up by the other stuff going on. But that's a very "clean" tone so there's no overdrive to "crackle", or "fizz".

Not to pick on Lukather, but I just found ones for MJ's "Beat It". I have to say, the "main riff" (the low one) is pretty - what I'd consider "crappy sounding" and it's soaked in reverb. Then the higher one that comes in is not bad - saved by the chorus effect. But, neither of them really sound like that to me in the final mix.

There's one for SRV's "Pride and Joy" which I'm pretty familiar with and I have to say the isolated guitar track sounds fairly identical to the final version - if the master is different, it's very subtle.

So what I'm trying to get at is, in the final version we hear of various songs, how much does the raw recorded guitar track actually sound like the final version and, if not, what's happening along the way.

Basically, I want to "deconstruct" songs from the mastered version, to the mixed version, to the individual track, especially for "overdriven" guitars.

I would even be happy to get examples from people that weren't million sellers, so long as I could hear the various stages. I feel like it would be very instructive for me and answer the questions I've had all these years (and for others as well).

TIA for any answers or examples you can provide (and I know YT is horrible, but these were things I could find as examples).






Old 8th February 2017
  #2
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Dina Mastering's Avatar
 

wow, that was looooong (and had MJ in it!)
Old 8th February 2017
  #3
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Farm sounds's Avatar
 

Thanks for posting... Fun to hear. The MJ guitars sound almost identical to the final mix at least to my ears...is that Nile Rogers doing the rhythm stuff?

EVH style and tone are so recognizable and Classic...a true master.
Old 9th February 2017
  #4
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Rosanna guitars seemed to be one part, raw recorded. Beat It seemed to be multiple pairs partially mixed.
Old 9th February 2017
  #5
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
Rosanna guitars seemed to be one part, raw recorded.
Not what I'm hearing at all.
Old 9th February 2017
  #6
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Man I know I could 100% wrong. But sounds like a single guitar player with a pedal. But I'm probably 100% wrong. Wouldn't be the first time Great players though!
Old 10th February 2017
  #7
Gear Nut
 

I know exactly what you mean when you are talking about the guitar sizzle factor on the single tracks. I'm curious to hear feedback. I heard the isolation Ed guitar tracks of Fleetwood Mac rumors and couldn't believe how hot and saturated (harsh) even the clean guitars were. Yet in the final master they sound so nice.
Old 10th February 2017
  #8
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by gfunny72 View Post
I know exactly what you mean when you are talking about the guitar sizzle factor on the single tracks. I'm curious to hear feedback. I heard the isolation Ed guitar tracks of Fleetwood Mac rumors and couldn't believe how hot and saturated (harsh) even the clean guitars were. Yet in the final master they sound so nice.
At least I know I'm not the only one!

I'm hoping some others will chime in.
Old 10th February 2017
  #9
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
Man I know I could 100% wrong. But sounds like a single guitar player with a pedal. But I'm probably 100% wrong. Wouldn't be the first time Great players though!
Steve Lukather's band is Toto. He's a very well-known session player amongst guitarists and has played on basically what amounts to ridiculous amounts of recordings - many you'd never know where him. He played on The Tubes "Talk to You Later" as well as Don Henly's "Dirty Laundry" in addition to the "heavy" parts on "Beat It" (Eddie did the solo, and I do believe it was Nile Rodgers who did the "spanky" part as someone mentions above).

And yes, the other players in Toto were all amazing and have been highly regarded in their careers (some have passed unfortunately).

Lukather would have played all the parts in Rosanna most likely. They are also most likely on multiple tracks - each guitar tone on its own track, though it's possible some were shared.

It's possible that pedals were involved, but as a matter of course most guitarists like this don't play the whole song "live in one take", turning on and off effects like they do live. He probably at least had one track for the opening low note with spanky upper note effect, another for the heavy guitars (though things like that, especially today, are often triple tracked) and there's the little cleanish part during the chorus, probably another track as well. The solo was likely on its own track also.

There might have been some instances where he rolled off the volume and just continued on, but it's definitely more than at least 1 track, and the solo likely makes it at least 3 (unless they were running low on tracks and shared).

It's also likely even if any tracks carried more than one part, they were overdubbed and not played "live" (though each one by itself could have been, overdubbed 3 or 4 times, etc.

Lukather's so good, it's unlikely he did 20 takes of the solo and they picked the best 1 or edited takes together. More likely, he came in and nailed it. Few players are at that level, but he is. But you never know with that stuff until you can get first hand comments.
Old 10th February 2017
  #10
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Oh I totally get the recoding process. But to me it was in stark contrast to the Beat It file. Again, these are among the best ever. Love it!! BTW, I'm a hiphop, rnb lover, but Tot's Africa is among my top of all time. Those guys could not only play, but they could really sing!!
Old 10th February 2017
  #11
Hello,
I think the iso Steve Lukather,clean,and dirt are so unlike amp sims,and obviously real Marshall SPL 1959's,or the Boogies he later used 100%.

I totally agree about the sizzle factor of home recorded guitars(Especially mine)but only one um Thing(2nd blast of noises) on my soundcloud page/list was done entirely real amp Marshall 2203 Chinese Greenback Celestions,Gibson(serial verified as 2010 Left Hand Les Paul Studio)boosted with 2 yes 2,it used to only take 1 Boss GE-7 EQ pedals.

The Rhythm was just the same Front PU Backwards Vol. Pot on Guitar turned down-way down-oh I had a BOSS NS-2 Noise Suppressor,with Both EQ's in Send/Return on the NS,and the minimal vocals,same time as tracking rhythm-2 mic's heh Behringer XM1800S (3 pack $79.99 AU) 58 like Dynamics-2 tracks-2x XLR UA25-EX usb 1.1,other REAL Bit is solo/lead bits on Rebassed-rest is Amplitube Everything is 1st take,as um it's soundcloudand me "Hovering" in Music Computers-Love to finally get things RIGHT,but even tune 2 has some how degraded over time??

Edward Only did the SOLO on "Beat It" I believe,or as a toddler,that was what the 2 Main Guitar magazines said,may have only been "Guitar World"?

Last edited by rksguit; 11th February 2017 at 09:44 AM..
Old 12th February 2017
  #12
"Rosanna"-Steve Lukather,amazing electrical guitar player,and it's too obvious by listening to iso that at least 2 tracks very least.
1. Clean,drop ins,completely fine tone,real amp,tape,couldn't be better.

2."Beat it" No idea how many tracks, but I read His Stock Plex 100w voltage attenuated Marshall(much quieter-no hiss"Brown sound"SuperLead,plus 1 Quad Box with whatever speakers were in that cabinet,at that session,Edward,does not play anything else on THAT track I do believe,and 2 takes I'm sure I read.

3.Totally agree finished Radio versions don't have-I don't know if I would call it "sizzle"the exact kind sims get,or suspect amps/players setting up an amp may get,but man,they DO NOT sound like amp sims,only Amp Sims used incorrectly even then not the same-real amps-in regards to what is required from tracked guitars,in order to end up with released 12 inch 33 rpm vinyl,or 7 inch 45 rpm vinyl released back in those exact moments in time,though.....

Addendum: I Bought the 7 inch Australian release of "Beat iT",and it sounded different,compared to hearing the finished release over the internet,which is hardly surprising,compared to my then,Technics turntable,Akai amp,some(?) speakers.

It would help Everybody on Gearsz/GS,to be made aware,of each step,to radio,of both,well chosen tunes.
Old 12th February 2017
  #13
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieotomy View Post
Steve Lukather's band is Toto. He's a very well-known session player amongst guitarists and has played on basically what amounts to ridiculous amounts of recordings - many you'd never know where him. He played on The Tubes "Talk to You Later" as well as Don Henly's "Dirty Laundry" in addition to the "heavy" parts on "Beat It" (Eddie did the solo, and I do believe it was Nile Rodgers who did the "spanky" part as someone mentions above).

And yes, the other players in Toto were all amazing and have been highly regarded in their careers (some have passed unfortunately).

Lukather would have played all the parts in Rosanna most likely. They are also most likely on multiple tracks - each guitar tone on its own track, though it's possible some were shared.

It's possible that pedals were involved, but as a matter of course most guitarists like this don't play the whole song "live in one take", turning on and off effects like they do live. He probably at least had one track for the opening low note with spanky upper note effect, another for the heavy guitars (though things like that, especially today, are often triple tracked) and there's the little cleanish part during the chorus, probably another track as well. The solo was likely on its own track also.

There might have been some instances where he rolled off the volume and just continued on, but it's definitely more than at least 1 track, and the solo likely makes it at least 3 (unless they were running low on tracks and shared).

It's also likely even if any tracks carried more than one part, they were overdubbed and not played "live" (though each one by itself could have been, overdubbed 3 or 4 times, etc.

Lukather's so good, it's unlikely he did 20 takes of the solo and they picked the best 1 or edited takes together. More likely, he came in and nailed it. Few players are at that level, but he is. But you never know with that stuff until you can get first hand comments.
Ditto

AND, guys like Lukather and Robben Ford, their tone (stupid gtr players and their tone) is to them almost as important as the notes... Now, I'm not saying it was Lukather, BUT, there were a couple of monster session guys in LA where they'd come in with their giant racks and cabs... Mic tgeir own cabs... Then, they'd basically hand the producer a stereo pair of cable and that was all the engineer got... A premixed, effects dripping stereo pair... No DI, no alternate micing... Their rationale was... You're paying for my time, my tone and my playing all coming out of this pair. My tone is so important to me that I get to decide how it's crafted and captured.

These guys would -- obviously -- would work with the producer to get a tone that fit the session... But, were super protective about what pieces of mojo in the racks got them there.

I'd question any toto stuff you find on the internet... Who knows where these recordings came from... I'm not questioning that their authentic or not, just would suggest that you could never know where in the chain or process these sounds came from... Does that make sense?

Bob Ohlsson had a couple of choice words regarding the James Jamerson iso tracks from motown... I would want to quite him incorrectly, but the jibe of it was, "don't believe everything you read in the funny papers... There's no way those distorted tracks were part of any released Motown material"...
Old 13th February 2017
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

I have a handwired recreation of a vintage Marshall guitar amp and that 'fizz' is almost inescapable, especially when using the pre-amp gain channel rather than just turning up the "clean" channel loud.

Add a Tubescreamer overdrive pedal to the mix and you're in fizz heaven :P There is nothing 'smooth' about many of those amps.. they're jagged, raw and ready - and requires a solid bass amp tone to offset the shrill, piercing highs. Sounds great in full flight though.
Old 16th February 2017
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by MogwaiBoy View Post
I have a handwired recreation of a vintage Marshall guitar amp and that 'fizz' is almost inescapable, especially when using the pre-amp gain channel rather than just turning up the "clean" channel loud.

Add a Tubescreamer overdrive pedal to the mix and you're in fizz heaven :P There is nothing 'smooth' about many of those amps.. they're jagged, raw and ready - and requires a solid bass amp tone to offset the shrill, piercing highs. Sounds great in full flight though.
Absolutely.

Somehow-not sure,but Edward VH seemed to me to always have a little less"fizzled"sound,as some(more than I realized?) of my listening was 'headphones'only-that i could fit into a Full Face motorcycle Helmet,pre ok ear buds- is That analogy an oxymoron(?),as I used the best(after much DIY of ideal placement "inside" the Oversized work helmet)small unsealed headphones circa 1983 I was a 19y.o teenaged scooter delivery boy,all could afford/find.

All -only 'AT JOB' From back then a licenced AIWA walkman(early tinnitus inducement technique at FULL volume-take heed youngsters!-overcame road noise etc,and only the "Fair Warning"Album,only on cassette,and "the less to me"-guitar sound focused"-"Diver Down"LP's.

Less listened to on the Far Better bedroom home stereo-pre 4 track,but we did a Van Halen's version-not completely correct as DD of "Roy Orbison's"amazing tune"Pretty Woman",and obviously Van Halen-ized-'That RIFF/EVH's Tone/Bar-reminded me(and a few Million guitar OCD'ers? in 1982?) of Heart's "Barracuda"Dontchareckon ?

I had *truckloads*more- ole 'fizz',certainly back in 1981/1985,possibly/definitely to present day,but early days,a couple of 'truckloads easy'it's how that Gained UP Instrument is-Mastering Engineers,especially THOSE Masters Instrument/whole deal radio fidelities-if you have me on IGNORE Hot Vibrato has a tale of TRUTH BELOW .

Last edited by rksguit; 16th February 2017 at 11:49 PM..
Old 16th February 2017
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieotomy View Post
Now, I know that this isolated "track" is really a number of tracks - they've basically combined the guitar parts into one - er - track for us to hear all of them.

But what I'm trying to get out is, is this actually the "raw" guitar tracks "as they sound" on the master tape?

Or, is this isolated track a "soloed" version of the mixed tracks (summed) with the same kind of EQ and compression etc. that was likely applied before it was sent to be mastered.
You should bear in mind that the recordings you've posted were done at a time when even the top studios had only 24 tracks to work with, so therefore it was necessary to bounce multiple tracks down to a single track to make room for more parts. It's likely that the isolated tracks are as they were on the multitrack master after they were bounced to a single (or stereo) track, and that the original isolated parts were recorded over, so they no longer exist.
Old 17th February 2017
  #17
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Owen L T's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
Man I know I could 100% wrong. But sounds like a single guitar player with a pedal. But I'm probably 100% wrong. Wouldn't be the first time Great players though!
At the 57 second mark (approximately) you can still here the sustain of the clean guitar, when the background hiss of the overdriven guitar track suddently kicks in underneath it, followed shortly by the guitar itself. So, it's most definitely a comp (or, as someone metioned, a 'bounce' as it was then) of takes using the different guitar sounds.
Old 17th February 2017
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieotomy View Post
Lukather's so good, it's unlikely he did 20 takes of the solo and they picked the best 1 or edited takes together. More likely, he came in and nailed it. Few players are at that level, but he is. But you never know with that stuff until you can get first hand comments.
There was an interview with him recently where he said that for their most recent reunion tour, for the first time ever he went back and listened to/learned the solo at the end of Rosanna - which, in that same interview, he said was totally a one take jam at the end of the track.

EDIT: found the interview, and the quote

"I was only 23 when we did that “Rosanna.” That was a lucky pass. That ending section wasn’t even supposed to happen. We just played it, and there it was—a moment in time."

http://www.stevelukather.com/news-ar...p-feature.aspx
Old 17th February 2017
  #19
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eugtone's Avatar
There's no way that guitar track is an honest representation of the guitars in that mix of Toto. Just play the guitar solo at 3:20 over top of another section of the song and compare to the real guitar solo. Sounds like garbage in a boxy room.
Old 17th February 2017
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieotomy View Post
I picked this song because there are some isolated tracks of most of the instruments on YT (I'll link below).

Now, when I listen to Lukather's isolated guitar track, it's very "high-endy" to me, in some places "ice-picky". In general, when there's any higher gain on, it's "sizzly". It's very "clanky" on the clean parts - sounds like active pickups - typical bright 80s studio tone...

But when I hear the final product, those parts don't sound that way to me

Now, I know that this isolated "track" is really a number of tracks - they've basically combined the guitar parts into one - er - track for us to hear all of them.

But what I'm trying to get out is, is this actually the "raw" guitar tracks "as they sound" on the master tape?

Or, is this isolated track a "soloed" version of the mixed tracks (summed) with the same kind of EQ and compression etc. that was likely applied before it was sent to be mastered.

Or, is the lack of "sizzlyness" I don't hear in the final product a product of the mastering (more EQ) or mixing (more EQ) stages.

Or, is it simply "masking", where those same "sizzly" sounds are still present, they're just covered up by all the other sonic information going on?

I would think if the last were true, when I listen to something like the intro to Jethro Tull's "Aqualung", since it's by itself and there's no other instruments to mask it, it should sound "more sizzly" than later in the song when it's covered up. I'd have to re-listen, but I don't seem to remember it that way.

In fact - while guitar tones run the gamut - most commercially released guitar distorted tones don't sound "sizzly" to me - be I think we're all familiar the typical thing the home recording guitarist (which is what I am) encounters - you put mics on the amp and run it into your DAW, or you use a modeller. And they're always "fizzy".

So what I'm getting at is, is this fizz OK and in fact commonplace in raw tracks, and during the mixdown process and ultimately the mastering process, it just becomes less noticeable (or is there some magic fairy dust going on?).

Now there are absolutely a few other isolated guitar tracks I've hear - Dire Straits' "Sultans of Swing" and I have to say it's pretty much darn just like the original song, except that in that case there are some quieter "ghost notes" and noises that are actually covered up by the other stuff going on. But that's a very "clean" tone so there's no overdrive to "crackle", or "fizz".

Not to pick on Lukather, but I just found ones for MJ's "Beat It". I have to say, the "main riff" (the low one) is pretty - what I'd consider "crappy sounding" and it's soaked in reverb. Then the higher one that comes in is not bad - saved by the chorus effect. But, neither of them really sound like that to me in the final mix.

There's one for SRV's "Pride and Joy" which I'm pretty familiar with and I have to say the isolated guitar track sounds fairly identical to the final version - if the master is different, it's very subtle.

So what I'm trying to get at is, in the final version we hear of various songs, how much does the raw recorded guitar track actually sound like the final version and, if not, what's happening along the way.

Basically, I want to "deconstruct" songs from the mastered version, to the mixed version, to the individual track, especially for "overdriven" guitars.

I would even be happy to get examples from people that weren't million sellers, so long as I could hear the various stages. I feel like it would be very instructive for me and answer the questions I've had all these years (and for others as well).

TIA for any answers or examples you can provide (and I know YT is horrible, but these were things I could find as examples).






You have no idea of what techniques might have been used to create those "isolated tracks" (and neither do I, psychic ability on the fritz again. Maybe it's the rain?)

If the tracks are anything other than the original individual tracks off the master multitrack there's no way to determine what was done to "isolate" the track.

The odds are that these are3 NOT taken from the original master. They might be taken from a musician's "work rough", a partial mixdown, anything, and may have been subjected to fairly radical EQ to "isolate" the instrument.

Who knows? But the odds are that the original recordings didn't sound like that.
Old 18th February 2017
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eugtone View Post
There's no way that guitar track is an honest representation of the guitars in that mix of Toto. Just play the guitar solo at 3:20 over top of another section of the song and compare to the real guitar solo. Sounds like garbage in a boxy room.
In the mix of the song itself, the guitar solo sounds very different from how it does elsewhere - with a noticeably room-y reverb tail. So, there's no reason it would sound the same as in another section of the song ... (No one is disputing that multiple guitar sounds were comped to a stereo stem.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
If the tracks are anything other than the original individual tracks off the master multitrack there's no way to determine what was done to "isolate" the track.
A little digging suggests that this is, in fact, taken from the original multi-track - at some stage of the proceedings. (As John points out, it could be a rough mix, but ... well, listen to the isolated drums in the links below; it sounds to me more like they did a few stem mixes as they went, with all the various reverbs printed.)

It was featured early last year on a radio show and several guitar magazines, and appears to originate from a site where various other instruments and stems also appear - including drums, and a drums/keys/brass stem.

Toto | Rosanna (vocals, guitar, bass, drums, keys/horns only)

Hear Steve Lukather's Isolated Guitar from Toto's "Rosanna" | Guitar World

As far as I know there's no EQ or processing in the world that could have stripped out the guitar that cleanly (or anything approaching that cleanly) from a stereo mix - much less the drums in all their glory. So either (a) it IS from the original multi-track; or (b) it's an incredibly elaborate, expensive (you don't get a drummer sounding like that, with a brass section sounding like that without shelling out serious cash) hoax for which the punchline has yet to be revealed, despite it being nearly a year since the recordings first surfaced.

I'm as naturally sceptical as the next man when it comes to Random Stuff on the Internet, but ... in this case, I'm pretty sure it's legit - and willing to admit being taken in if someone shows otherwise!
Old 18th February 2017
  #22
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"Rosanna" is available for Rock Band. Those things are almost always comped down to stems from the original multis, and this sounds to me like it could be exactly that.
Old 18th February 2017
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
"Rosanna" is available for Rock Band. Those things are almost always comped down to stems from the original multis, and this sounds to me like it could be exactly that.
Okay, that makes total sense - as the multitrack website mentioned that some of its tracks were from Rock Band!
Old 18th February 2017
  #24
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Great thread, i love posts of isolated tracks on big songs..Lukather is a monster player.

It's always interesting to hear these..thanks for posting.
Old 18th February 2017
  #25
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Great point... We didn't see as much of this stuff prior to the rock band phenom


Well... Except for the odd one always meant to embarrass some poor mysucian... Paul McCartney's poor wife comes to mind.
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