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Hi-Fi Stratocaster
Old 23rd July 2015
  #1
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🎧 5 years
Question Hi-Fi Stratocaster



Hi ! I have a doubt about single pickups...


I decided to modify the electrical system of my Strat (SSS) in order to achieve a sound that is the closest possible to the natural/real sound of the guitar (considering that the pickups have a balanced response of lows, mids & highs).
I'll explain it in a clear and direct way:


* There will be no Switch

* There will be no Tone pot

* There will be only a 500K Volume pot between the pickups and the output jack.

* All the three pickups will be installed with the SAME PHASE and the SAME POLARITY (to avoid any frequency cancelation)

* All the three pickups will be used together (always)


The question is: which type of wiring would offer the highest fidelity in the frequency response: series or parallel ??


I know that "series is louder" and "parallel is quieter", but the issue here is not volume, it's tone.

I've read that in parallel wiring, an attenuation of Lower frequencies occurs. But I don't know if it's only related to pickups out-of-phase.


Can someone help me with this project ?
Old 23rd July 2015
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helloween 66 View Post
[FONT="Arial Black"][SIZE="2"]
The question is: which type of wiring would offer the highest fidelity in the frequency response: series or parallel ??
Good/bad tone is down to your personal taste. Be bold and try them both to hear what you like the most. Never mind what other people think; it's your guitar, music, life.
Old 23rd July 2015
  #3
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I love the Brian May system where each pickup has a 3 way switch, so you can mute them (centre) or mix them in phase (up) or out of phase (down). This gives you every possible combination - and the sounds are so vastly different it's very cool to have them all available.

I think you will have to experiment for yourself to find your preference ...

Personally - I would probably end up with neck and bridge in series for a full clear sound ... although if hum is a problem you may wish to have them in parallel with one out of phase ...

I would not expect to like all pups together ... but you never know until you try. Maybe have the middle one phase reversed to kill hum?

I have a love/relationship with out-of-phase sounds ... I love the Dire Straits sound, but it can grow old ...
Old 23rd July 2015
  #4
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OP being a jackass, advise revoked.

Last edited by donsolo; 6th August 2015 at 01:38 PM..
Old 23rd July 2015
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helloween 66 View Post

* All the three pickups will be installed with the SAME PHASE and the SAME POLARITY (to avoid any frequency cancelation)

This is only true if the pick-ups are in the same location on the string....

They only sure way to avoid cancellations due to multiple pick-ups is to frequency divide them: So the Neck should be filtered to only low frequencies and the bridge should only pass high frequencies. Still, in the cross-over region, you will still have some cancellations.

If you bring out the pick-ups separately, a digital cross-over can have very steep transitions between the bands and nearly eliminate the cancellations you fear....



-tINY

Old 23rd July 2015
  #6
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The main problem I see is that "hi-fi" and "electric guitar" is never a good thing. Tone gets interesting precisely because of phase and frequency and harmonic distortions. The very best "clean" guitar sounds are never hi-fi clean. This is why you will probably want a tube amp to rescue a pickup tone that is too technically clean. You will probably want one anyway.

This shouldn't stop you pursuing the sound you have in your head - just that you might need to change your thinking to get there.

Best solution is to wire them up and listen - and try all the combinations to see what you like.

I love clean pure guitar tones - and I also love all shades of distortion. Usually I find the sounds I want with a single pickup - so I think it's a shame to have a guitar with three pickups and no switches. Don't fear using switches - they do less damage than the volume and tone knobs. For some of my studio guitars i've wired a single pup directly to a jack - in some cases i've put jacks in the holes where i've removed the pots, so I can process the pickups separately.

My latest interest is in hexaphonic or polyphonic or dividided pickups. Actually - the Roland GK3 pickup is a fantastic analog mag pickup in it's own right. You don't have to use them digitally or trigger synths ... I have a breakout box that lets me use each string independantly, or sum them all together.

The sound from this pickup is so clean, hi-fi and full range that the Roland Virtual Guitar system can extract any sound it wants out of it ... from acoustic guitars, to any electric guitar pickup (or position including out-of-phase options!) ... the full spectrum of sound is in there, and you can simply use the analog output of the pickup if you want to. It's far too clean and boring for my taste - but it's a perfect signal for processing further. Very noise-free, like EMG pickups.

(Clearly this is too experimental for most guitar slingers - I expect the usual suspects to tell you i'm totally wrong ... and if you are the kind of player who is stumped by more than 2 knobs, please just ignore this).

A simple piezo pickup might give you very similar sound. You also might like the sound of EMG pickups - some professional legendary guitar players love them for the same reasons I love them: no noise on any stage, great for recording if you know how to get tone. Many other players hate the sound, because they are using the same amp settings and comparing them with specific guitars ... when you get a pickup that is less colored, you have to treat it differently and add color if you want color ... but each of us are chasing different tones and you will know when you have found what works for you.
Old 23rd July 2015
  #7
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🎧 15 years
i did the brian may configuration on one of my strats, and i love it.. all the combinations of on/off and in/out of phase, offer a wide tonal palette. a different attitude really.. now i think of it as the strats english cousin =D
Old 23rd July 2015
  #8
I actually built something like this and It did have a Brian May type switching system. It has a custom made walnut body, maple neck, fixed bridge and uses lace sensor golds without a tone knob. The guitar sounds really, really clean, no hum either. I'm currently working on building an onboard parametric equalizer so I can take advantage of a clean base tone and tweak it exactly how I want it.
Old 24th July 2015
  #9
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🎧 5 years
Question

Thanks for the replies, guys, but you've missed the point of the topic.

I don't want to use piezo, hexaphonic, humbuckers or active pickups. I really want to use 3 passive single pickups (same phase & same polarity), but I just don't know the best way to install them in order to avoid significant frequency attenuation: series or parallel ?
That's my last doubt before start building a "special" Strat body.


Again: I've read that in parallel wiring, an attenuation of Lower frequencies occurs. But I don't know if it's only related to pickups out-of-phase.


It's not about preference or musical taste. It's a specific question about physics.

Does anyone know the answer ?
Old 24th July 2015
  #10
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Look at the impedance of the parallel and of the series connections.....

In series, the resistance and inductance of one coil is like a long guitar cable. Since the DCR is about 10-20k and the input impedance of the volume pot is 500k or 1M, the lower frequencies aren't attenuated much. At higher frequencies, the inductance of the second coil will cause the impedance to rise, so it actually does start to cut-out high frequencies.

For parallel wiring, almost the opposite is going on: The second pick-up is shunting the lower frequencies to ground and not loading the higher frequencies much.

With separate outputs, you could buffer both pick-up signals so neither loads the other....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ScDTlxqU64



-tINY

Old 24th July 2015
  #11
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I am glad that the Brain May system has been mentioned a few times. It was the first thing that came to mind when I read the original question. Having three pickups but no switching for them is like castration.

Thread Starter: I don't understand why you are saying it's not about preference or musical taste, but that it's a specific question about physics. It OK to aim for a specification that you can measure on a spectrum analyzer, but to disregard human ears seem odd to me. Are you really going to be satisfied playing an instrument that sounds less pleasant than it could because you regard physics to be so important? Somehow I don't believe the warm glowing feeling from knowing my spectrum is flat would make up for hearing a sound that is lame. White noise has a flat spectrum, but it isn't music.

Last edited by Mmmmqac; 7th August 2015 at 06:41 AM.. Reason: Spelled out the abbreviations.
Old 24th July 2015 | Show parent
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helloween 66 View Post
Thanks for the replies, guys, but you've missed the point of the topic.

I don't want to use piezo, hexaphonic, humbuckers or active pickups. I really want to use 3 passive single pickups (same phase & same polarity), but I just don't know the best way to install them in order to avoid significant frequency attenuation: series or parallel ?
That's my last doubt before start building a "special" Strat body.


Again: I've read that in parallel wiring, an attenuation of Lower frequencies occurs. But I don't know if it's only related to pickups out-of-phase.


It's not about preference or musical taste. It's a specific question about physics.

Does anyone know the answer ?
Yes - we are WAAAY ahead of you, and trying to help you ...

Stuff physics - this is music. And you have a flawed premise which we are trying to point out subtly - but now you've been rude we may as well tell you straight.
Old 24th July 2015
  #13
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🎧 15 years
this may be a long shot, so bear with me...

if you're willing to experiment with capacitor and resistor values, you could wire the pickups in parallel, and achieve a pseudo multi-band signal from the three pickups. which is similar to what tINY was suggesting, i think. each pickup would utilize a different set of values of caps and resistors. so, you're essentially setting up a low pass, high pass, or band pass filter, for each pickup. it might introduce some strange behavior, and would probably be easier digitally with individual outputs.

with a series setup, you'd have to set up some sort of global emphasis/de-emphasis circuit between the pickups and the volume.

i have no idea where to start with capacitor or resistor values.. or if these ideas would even work.. i do know that three single coil pickups wired in series, is a powerful sound. the combination has a lot of attitude. when i plug it into my theta, i can dial in just about any sound i want.. some i don't want.
Old 24th July 2015
  #14
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To answer your question ...

You have 3 pickups reading the string vibration at 3 different positions ... you already should know that they sound very different, with the bridge being brighter, and the neck favoring the bass.

Because we are talking about the physics of a vibrating string, these are time and phase differences between the pickups. So even if you wire them "in-phase" - parts of each signal may not be happening at the same time or at the same amplitude. So there are differences, especially at the extremes of highs and lows.

As far as current and voltage goes, it's similar to wiring batteries together. Wiring them in series increases the voltage (for the parts that sum together at the same time). So they are hotter and brighter. Unless you wire them out-of-phase, in which case sound + sound = silence ... and everything that is common to both pickups nulls out and leaves just the difference - with the parts that are *really* different being hyped. The sum of the waveform will be different. Which can be fun and useful, but clearly not what you want.

Wiring in parallel does not boost the voltage of the parts of the waveform that are identical, and if anything the parts that are different will sum to something lower in voltage than each pickup alone. And wired out of phase you get the weird stuff, but at lower voltage.

In the interests of physics - and your claim that you want a hi-fi sound - your best approximation is to use just the bridge pickup alone.

Don't tell me that you don't like the sound of the bridge pickup ... in the interests of science, you should not let your ears fool you ...
Old 24th July 2015
  #15
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🎧 5 years
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post

For parallel wiring, almost the opposite is going on: The second pick-up is shunting the lower frequencies to ground and not loading the higher frequencies much.
Are you sure that would happen even if all the 3 pickups were in the same polarity and same phase ? (that's my doubt)

.
.
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mmmmqac View Post
Having three pickups but no switching for them is like castration.
I believe that Switch would cause some loss on high freq, and also I rarely use it because I only enjoy the sound of the middle pickup alone.

*(malmsteen got angry, now)
Old 24th July 2015
  #16
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Magnetic pickups cause a "loss of high freq" ... which is a very good thing in my book. You could use piezo's or pickups with a much fuller range if that was your goal.

But here is the strongest argument for using switches: you said "because I only enjoy the sound of the middle pickup alone. "

So if you wire all your pups up - you are robbing yourself of a tone you love. Since you don't like the bridge or neck sound - and don't want the interesting phasey sounds - why are you even considering doing this?

It would seem that the middle pup is your cleanest best option for you - so wire it directly to the output jack.
Old 24th July 2015
  #17
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
It would seem that the middle pup is your cleanest best option for you - so wire it directly to the output jack.
Using only one pickup doesn't seem to be the best solution, because each note on a same string would have a different ratio of fundamental to harmonics.

I believe that using three single pickups (same phase & same polarity), the resulting sound would be closer to the real sound of the guitar, even if a SMALL amount of freq attenuation happens.


I just want to know which type of wiring offers a sound that is CLOSER to the real sound of the guitar, in terms of Freq Response.

Surely, it's not with the middle pickup alone.
Old 24th July 2015
  #18
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Magnetic pickups will never be a true representation of the guitar - only the strings (and whatever effect the guitar has on the strings, which is mainly a dampening of sustain). A piezo will be the truest representation of the guitar - and out of the pups he has, the bridge position would be closest.

But he has already said he does not like the sound of the bridge, or the neck, pickups. I'm just suggesting if he likes the sound of the middle pup, wire that direct to the jack. The switch won't affect the highs much if at all. But if he doesn't like the bridge pickup, why would he want more highs?

And if he doesn't want any phaseyness, why use more than one pickup?

My original actual advice, which he doesn't want to consider, is to wire them up and listen for himself. But this is more of a science project than about making music.
Old 24th July 2015
  #19
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If you leave all three pickups on at the same time you will comb filter the high frequencies. Look at high-speed camera footage of a guitar string being picked. The string will be in a different phase of the cycle over each pickup, not by an extreme amount, but this will phase cancel the high-frequencies and you may lose some midbass as well depending on which note you are picking. It will sound thin and phasey. That's why the pickup selector only selects maximum two pickups, and partially why when you select two pickups the tone changes so much. It's also why pickups are wired "out of phase" when two pickups are selected.

If you're not happy with the tone of your strat you might want to simply think about trying out different models until you find something close to the tone you are looking for, then go from there. For example, a big factor in the sound of a strat is maple vs rosewood fretboards. They both dampen the string differently when you fret a note. It's not always the vibration/resonance of a tonewood but sometimes the lack of vibration. Swamp ash will allow the bridge to resonate in certain frequencies more than basswood for example. Resonance doesn't always equal more or less sustain. Resonance can cause changes in frequency response and attack also. This will all affect the the tone in a properly wired pickup more than the pickup does. Generally a properly designed pickup will affect dynamics more than tone, unless it's specially designed to electronically boost the highs, etc.

Last edited by psykostx; 24th July 2015 at 11:24 AM..
Old 24th July 2015 | Show parent
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helloween 66 View Post
[COLOR="Blue"]Again: I've read that in parallel wiring, an attenuation of Lower frequencies occurs. But I don't know if it's only related to pickups out-of-phase.
It's not about the pickups being out of phase, it's about each point in the string being in a different phase of the cycle. The basic mechanics of string vibration are what causes phase problems when you are picking up a string at multiple points. Check out my previous post. A string doesn't vibrate in a straight line back and forth. If it did, there would be no difference between a bridge pickup and a neck pickup.
Old 24th July 2015 | Show parent
  #21
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I'm guessing the OP's using (natural) in the sense that the removal of pots / switches etc
will have some effect. switches not especially, pots yes. most of it's about the resonance
of the coil winding though. it's not really close to a flat response so it's hard to talk about natural.

if you add in what others are saying,,, what you're thinking of as natural, really depends on
figuring out what is going on, so you can think about what you are likely to get.

put another way. I don't think you're gonna get what you think you're gonna get, for the reasons
you think you're gonna get it. pickups aren't picking up soundwaves in air, they are electro magnetic,
so the pots change the response pattern. different pot values re-shape the pattern.

I don't think there is a natural frequency response of a pickup in the way the OP is thinking about it.
it just changes when you add different value pots. it won't sound more natural, it will just sound different.
you could like it less, and you could have more problems because of it.

if you want a more flat response pickup, you could try a (single) Bill Lawrence REF 3.
I wouldn't worry about switches and I'd consider 3 way mini ON/OFF/ON toggles for each
pickup. each could be selected for, 2 different winding directions & an OFF position.
if you cross wire the outer pole pairs on the toggles, it should completely switch out
the pickup it's interrupting, if using the centre 2 as the new connection from the pickup.

I'm probably going down that route, as well as having variable capacitor value selection,
along with a tone cap off position. so I guess it's parallel by default. I might try a REF 3
if I put together a flat wound based instrument. I figure you may as well have as many
options as you can get, while being able to completely disengage them.

I also agree with what everyone else is saying about what you are gonna get and
why you're gonna get it.
Old 24th July 2015 | Show parent
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
pickups aren't picking up soundwaves in air, they are electro magnetic,
Exactly, so anything that changes the way the strings vibrate is going to have more effect on the tone than the pickup, which is basically just a detector for motion in a magnetic field. Pickups and potentiometers generally effect the dynamics more than the tone, unless there is an impedance mismatch. The body of the guitar feeds back resonance into the strings (or absorbs it from them) at various frequencies depending on the tonewood. The fretboard and fret material can either dampen harmonics or accent them. That's why a strat with a maple neck sounds more cutting, bright and shimmering than a rosewood fretboard, which will sound warmer and punchier.
Old 24th July 2015 | Show parent
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psykostx View Post
Exactly, so anything that changes the way the strings vibrate is going to have more effect on the tone than the pickup, which is basically just a detector for motion in a magnetic field. Pickups and potentiometers generally effect the dynamics more than the tone, unless there is an impedance mismatch. The body of the guitar feeds back resonance into the strings (or absorbs it from them) at various frequencies depending on the tonewood. The fretboard and fret material can either dampen harmonics or accent them. That's why a strat with a maple neck sounds more cutting, bright and shimmering than a rosewood fretboard, which will sound warmer and punchier.
sure psykostx, I can see why you'd have all those suspicions. the volume pot's interesting
because turning it down has the coils encountering more resistance to ground,
at the same time as grounding out the amps input at a certain ratio.
and if that's right, it's something you should be able to really leverage.
If I muck around with that though, I'll probably try it externally.
thing about a lot of DSP tech is, it's hard to model those things
because it would most likely require the model to change in
response to the volume pot load.
Old 24th July 2015 | Show parent
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
sure psykostx, I can see why you'd have all those suspicions. the volume pot's interesting
because turning it down has the coils encountering more resistance to ground,
at the same time as grounding out the amps input at a certain ratio.
and if that's right, it's something you should be able to really leverage.
If I muck around with that though, I'll probably try it externally.
thing about a lot of DSP tech is, it's hard to model those things
because it would most likely require the model to change in
response to the volume pot load.
It also stands to reason that the strength of the magnets in the pickup could cause "drag" on the strings and reduce sustain, although that is a complete extrapolation/supposition. The things I said in my other post I know to be fact from experience and experimentation. Pickups seem to affect dynamics more than tone unless they're designed to in conjunction with the other electronics.

It would also make sense that what you said about resistance to ground could explain why some wiring setups cause hum when the volume pot isn't at full.
Old 24th July 2015 | Show parent
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psykostx View Post
It also stands to reason that the strength of the magnets in the pickup could cause "drag" on the strings and reduce sustain, although that is a complete extrapolation/supposition. The things I said in my other post I know to be fact from experience and experimentation. Pickups seem to affect dynamics more than tone unless they're designed to in conjunction with the other electronics.

It would also make sense that what you said about resistance to ground could explain why some wiring setups cause hum when the volume pot isn't at full.
yeah I shouldn't see why you wouldn't get some stiffening of the string excursions.
I have my pickups almost down at the body partly for that reason.

I've not seen anyone making an example of no pots at all. if that was part of your test.
but I would think you could easily characterise any reshaping as having a
significant effect on, what I think you mean by dynamics.

if you're turning down a volume pot and you're loading down your amp,
as well as lowering the output of the coils, is likely what makes sweet spots appear.

I'm assuming your amps response pattern can also easily change too.
Old 24th July 2015 | Show parent
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
I've not seen anyone making an example of no pots at all. if that was part of your test.
Bunch of high-end jazz boxes these days do that.
Old 24th July 2015 | Show parent
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donsolo View Post
Bunch of high-end jazz boxes these days do that.
yeah I think I remember seeing something along those lines.
sounded pretty good from what I remember.
Old 24th July 2015 | Show parent
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helloween 66 View Post
I just want to know which type of wiring offers a sound that is CLOSER to the real sound of the guitar, in terms of Freq Response.

That's like asking how fast a 350 small-block motor is.

It really isn't gonna go anywhere without a car, truck, or boat and a driveline (and wheels or prop....).

There is no "real" sound of an electric guitar. It's never heard without an amp (except in a few experimental recordings). So, it's just one part of the whole instrument....

What does a D-28 sound like without the rosewood box?



-tINY

Old 25th July 2015
  #29
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🎧 5 years
Question

One thing is not clear yet:

If 3 pickups were in the SAME polarity, SAME phase, and wired in PARALLEL, would there be an attenuation of Low Freq ??


Yes or Not ???
Old 25th July 2015 | Show parent
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helloween 66 View Post
One thing is not clear yet:

If 3 pickups were in the SAME polarity, SAME phase, and wired in PARALLEL, would there be an attenuation of Low Freq ??


Yes or No ???
If you want to know the answer to this question, it's a relatively simple matter to sit down and do the maths for yourself.

If you don't already know the relevant equations, I'd suggest it's not a good idea to be so openly hostile to those who's help you're seeking...

From what you've already said, I'm not sure you properly understand what you're doing.

I'd recommend paying attention to a lot of the opinions expressed above - hi-fi and guitar is an oxymoron. You've been given a lot of good advice. If you take the time to digest it you might find it best to approach this from a different angle.

If you're looking for a truly 'accurate' frequency response from a strat, you're already on a hiding to nothing. Removing the tone control and wiring the pickups differently won't make much difference.
Electric guitars are not - for the most part - hi-fidelity instruments. Since you have to combine them with some sort of amplification they don't really have a 'sound' per se. In fact, the true 'sound' of an electric guitar is only present when you play it acoustically.
A well designed/built electric will always have a good acoustic response (which is why it's always a good idea to play an electric unplugged first, when you're buying a new one). Once you do plug in you're adding a host of variables, all of which colour this sound in some way.
A strat could be said to have 3 'sounds' - one for each of the pickups. Combining all 3 pickups (in either series or parallel) will certainly result in a different sound, but will it be the 'true' sound of the guitar?

The answer is no. It's no more or less the true sound of the guitar than any of the 5 pickups selections you have as standard, or any combination of these with the volume/tone controls, played through any number of amps etc, etc...

That said, if you're searching for a certain sound hat's off to you - join the club

I'd recommend you try both series and parallel wiring - and any other combination you can think of. Your ears will always be a better judge of what sounds 'right' than some numbers on a page.
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