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Old 12th September 2019
  #159
Quote:
Originally Posted by konkon View Post
Yeah I mean to be honest even I only had 6 channels I could do something like snare, kick, kick, overheads (including hi-hat) and kinda toms and maybe a shared tom mic or one for the room. It's just more individually mic'd drums means I can have more control over the stereo image, but even with less than 6 channels I could make do. It just wouldn't be my preference.

Yeah the kicks at least need a mic each, but in and out would be ridiculous to use 4 channels for kicks. I'm sure one per kick would be fine though. They're not huge boomy floppy kicks. They're small, tight, punchy and tuned. Also there will be fast double stroke roll going on so it would be more blurry with a single kick and double pedal. Then again, recording wise who knows. This is aside from having the ability to split them up for panning.




Yeah I have even thought of a ton of ways I could do it with only 8 channels or less. Even 6. It's just that I would lose some control over being able to move things around the stereo field (as said above). I could make do though with even 6 or less. It just wouldn't be my ideal preference.

Yes they are integral to my compositions and arrangements as well as his drumming. They are definitely priority along with the obvious snare.




I thought about panning. I figured it might make the power of the track off center if I do that though, I would have to try and see in the mix I think. I was thinking it may depend on the song too and I could even setup differently per song, though it would waste more time.

I figured sometimes I might be able to center them and sometimes off-center them left and right depending on the song, or even within the same song. I wouldn't have that control though without the 2 separate kicks.

The other point is he will do a lot of fast 32nd note double stroke roll and I want the clarity and punch of each note to be there which might get blurred by using a double pedal. And as stated above, the kicks are a priority in this case. Like imagine a metal drummer kicks really fast on a double kick, but using double stroke roll, my drummer has 2 kicks to a normal guy's every one kick because he is doing a double with each foot and then alternating those.

The good news is the kicks are small and tuned and very punchy.

I am not sure what every other guy does but it will be a lot faster than Carmine Appice style. I think the other guys that kick like that always use 2 kick drums, but I haven't really researched every single one ever.




Yeah another point, although I just mentioned it above, he will be doing a lot of double stroke roll pretty fast, so it's like 2 kicks for every normal guy's one kick. So it's like a combo of the two things you stated.




Yeah, that's more like the ballpark. This list of guys is more like what we are talking about. In fact you can say at least someone on that list learned a few tricks from my drummer. So I guess you can try to picture those types of guys when considering this scenario.




If it helps, I can say that we have recorded live in a far from ideal scenario and you can still hear the separation clearly enough to grasp what's going on. The kicks DID each still have a mic though. However, we used 10 channels for the whole band. Leaving 6 for drums (and percussion).

I can't remember exactly but I know there was 1 mic for snare and 1 for each kick. Then 2 overheads I think. And then I think another overhead above the congas.

It was nowhere near what I want for a studio recording but it was all kinda audible, that's all I am saying. I think it helps that he uses small, punchy, tuned kick drums.

I will include a link at the bottom of this post so maybe you guys can get more of a picture of what will happen with the kicks, although not sure it's the best example of what I am talking about, at least you can get the point.




We won't be using triggers or samples in this scenario but I think the punch will be fine as long as the kicks are mic'd separately, considering the clarity of the actual drums used and the drummer's technique. It's more of a question of how to mix them after. I think no matter what I will be using 1 mic per kick. It would've just been a bonus if I could have inside and outside per kick. However, that could be a headache to have so many channels to deal with. And it's probably not plausible on my budget anyway.

As I mentioned in one of the above replies though, it was still audible even on a far from ideal live recording, so I think that it's probably fine to just allocate a mic for each kick as long as I use a bit of common sense, etc., when tracking.

PS - Guys, here is a link to a live video. Our sound engineer managed to at least get a cleanish recording of us on 10 tracks even though conditions were far from ideal and at least we managed to capture everything with the kicks still being audibly separate (I think) and that's including congas, etc., without percussion being overdubbed separately (as it would be in the studio) since it is a live scenario.

In terms of how the kicks will be played, maybe if you take a look at around 12:05 to 13:30 you can see a reasonable example of what I am talking about although he is still played rather relaxed in this instance... In most cases it won't need to be much faster than this, but it could possibly be depending on the song.

Of course this recording is not as good as what we are hoping to get in the studio and it's not exactly the best performance we could do, but it's the best example I have at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXzJ5DOhqvM
Right. watching that vid, he's still mainly playing one kick for the downbeat, and the 2nd when the doubles are needed (and I get the point about them being small!).

I personally really hate the idea of things moving within the song - like one minute the kick is central, and the next they're wide - it kind of goes against the concept of capturing the kit itself - but it's up to your taste I suppose! you also are then chasing your tail on phase if you're not careful.

Other than that, drum clinic drummers aren't really my thing, so I'm probably not the best person to advise! I would still like to hear how double kicks are treated in studio sessions from those who've done this successfully (particularly relating to the stereo field).

(your drummer could be my older brother btw )