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Old 12th August 2019
  #36
Lives for gear
 

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if you place the speakers directly near the front wall your stereo image can be seriously compromised.
... which must be why the vast majority of studios place their speakers near to the front wall, or even place them IN the front wall! They do that because they want the stereo imaging messed up. Yup. For sure...

In reality, no: not true. Placing your speakers against the front wall does NOT degrade the stereo image. At least, in a correctly designed and treated studio it does not. Maybe in a very badly designed or poorly implemented room it does, but that has nothing to do with acoustic reality in properly designed and built studios...

I repeat: having speakers against the front wall does not damage stereo imaging.

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mono track of each mic? wtf.
Yup! That is, indeed, how most mics record: in mono, to one single track. You have a theory about how a U47 placed a few inches in front of a singer's mouth is going to produce a stereo image on that track? How about something simpler, such as an SM57 on a snare? In what way will an SM57 on a snare magically produce stereo information in the track that it lays down? Or maybe your magical effect only happens in the low end, so let's assume we are talking about a plain old Beat-52 inside a kick drum: How exactly is the track form that going to have any hidden stereo imaging?

Truth: a mono mic does not capture a stereo image. The combined signals from several such mics also does not produce a stereo image by itself. To get a stereo image, you need a pair of speakers correctly placed in a room with good treatment. Stereo imaging is a function of the speakers and the room, not of some whimsical hidden information in a single mono track.

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I wanted to give the guy a good advice based on some experience.
And yet, you failed to do that, and instead gave him a whole bunch of old wives tales and fake silliness that doesn't actually work in real life, and isn't even true anyway. You should probably read Boggy's post to understand why your advice is so wrong...

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Other people on this planet seem to have similar experience, outside this forum.
I'm sure they do! In fact, some people who live on this planet seem to think that it is flat, not round... and they are wrong too.... There's a lot of folks who live out in fairy land, and want to promote silly ideas about acoustics, speakers, and studios that have no basis in reality. But those of us who actually do this for a living seem to congregate in forums like this, where real acoustics and psycho-acoustics are discussed, by people who actually do know what they are doing. People like Northward, Andre, Jens, Boggy, Bert, DanDan, etc. And where we really do understand the principles and concepts and math and research laid out in texts by world-leading experts, such as Floyd Toole, F. Alton Everest, Cox and D'Antonio, Rod Geravais, Marshall Long, as well as world-renowned organizations like the ITU, EBU, AES, BBC, and NRC among others. You have often stated that you disagree with all of those, and claimed they are wrong, naive, don't know what they are talking about, don't understand acoustics, speakers, studios, control rooms, etc. So I guess you'll have to forgive the rest of us, if we just don't take your claims seriously at all.

To make matters worse, the post you quoted to supposedly support your theory about the front wall, does not actually even mention the front wall, and isn't talking about the front wall at all!

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Just accept that there are different perceptions of what is good practise and bad.
Nope! Not gonna happen. Because this isn't about opinions: it's about science. Science works DESPITE opinions, not BECAUSE of them. Acoustics is a science, based on repeatable experimentation and research, not imagination and fantasy. If you would have actually read Floyd's book (instead of just pretending that you did), you'd understand how acoustic science is done, and why opinions don't matter. The science of designing and testing speakers is very well documented in that book. He even mentions how he had to abandon some of his own options once he started testing, and even managed to convince a major magazine to abandon their opinions on what makes a speaker sound good, when he showed them the research that proved their opinion wrong. Its worth reading that book. You really should do it. You might be able to abandon some of your own incorrect opinions.

The science of acoustics is very well documented in the books by Toole and the other authors I mentioned: you really should try reading them some day. They all dispel the myths that you continue to promote here.

There's a reason why Northward's rooms always work out great. As do John Sayers's rooms, and Wes Lachot's rooms, and rooms designed by others: they all understand how acoustics REALLY works, and design their rooms accordingly. They don't fall for the fakery and wishful thinking seen all over the Internet in forums that pretend to be useful. They probably don't even waste their time looking at that stuff! Instead, they just design and build world-class studios based on the actual, proven principles and concepts and math of acoustics. Then don't waste their time on ignorant opinions, and instead focus on informed science.

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Not needed to talk like a group leader in the we-form.
Sorry, but I don't agree with that either! I'm a member of the group "people who design studios for a living", so I will continue to use the first-person when I refer to that specific group of people. If I say "that's the way we do it", it doesn't mean I'm the leader of that group (in fact, it has no leader!). It just means that I'm one of the people from that group, who do it that way. Period.

Anyway, I'll make yet another attempt to get this thread back on track, in the interest of actually helping the OP with his original question:


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i got an empty room ( front wall height is 2.3m room is 3 meters wide and the lenght is 4.9 meters)
The room is small, but usable. However, it will require a lot of treatment to make it usable. The smaller a room is, the more treatment it will need. In a very small room such as yours, most of the treatment will be bass trapping, and the best place to put that is in the corners of the room. Yes, I realize you are asking mostly about initial speaker placement, not yet about treatment, but they do go together.

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What is the best placement of monitors and the table..
As I mentioned in my previous post, and as other knowledgeable people have mentioned too, the best location for speakers in a small room is against the front wall. Place them on stands such that the height of the acoustic axis is about 47 1/4" above the floor, o a little higher. The reason for this height is because that's the average ear height of seated people. You can go a bit higher, but not too much.

Also, start with the speakers set away from the side walls at a distance that is about 30% of room width. In your case, that means that the acoustic axis would be about 90cm from the side walls, and the speakers would be about 1.2m apart. That's just the starting position: From there, you can try moving them further apart in small steps, to see if you get an improvement in response Use REW to take measurements of the acoustic response at each step, and compare all of the graphs in REW to find the best location.

For the mix position, start with it at about 185cm from the front wall, on the room center-line, and with the mic at the same height as the speaker axis (47 1/4" or higher). That's also the starting point. From there, move the mic forward and backwards in small steps, and look at the REW data to find the best spot. It will probably be a bit in front of the original location, for most rooms.

Then set up your chair at the location, and place the desk in front of you such that it is in a comfortable working position, and repeat your tests. The desk will have an effect on the response, so you will probably need to move things around just a little to get a better layout.

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I have read quite a lot, and i understand the best monitor position in this small'ish room is as close to front walls as posible
Exactly. You have read correctly. That is, indeed, the best location in a small room.

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How close? i will put Acoustic Treatment soon (bass traps in all 4 corners with air gaps, and first reflections and maybe the ceiling)
This is why I mentioned that speaker position and treatment go together. You want the speakers as close as you can get them to the front wall, but front walls often do need some treatment too, so you might have to move the speaker slightly away from the wall to do that. For example, to insert a 4" thick porous absorption panel, if needed. And if you DO move the speakers like that, the you should repeat the "moving around and testing" procedure above, because things will have changed...

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Regarding 38percent rule, my monitors is about 80-90cm away from the wall, so i have to move my listening position closer...
The 38% "rule" is not really a rule. It's a starting point. And it refers to the location of your head, not the speakers. With your speakers 80 to 90 cm from the front wall, you will have an SBIR dip in the frequency response occurring at about 90 Hz, roughly. That's hard to treat, and will be very noticeable. If you put them against the front wall, the dip will move up to a higher frequency, where it won't be so noticeable to start with, and will be easier to deal with.

So that's the basic concept that all of the knowledgeable people commenting on your thread have been talking about. This is the way studio designers do it, to determine the best position for speakers and listening position. The reason the knowledgeable people are recommending it, is because they know how to do it, and have actually done it... and they now it works!


- Stuart -
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