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Offset spaced tail pair on grand piano?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
I did the learn the technique directly from someone who was there engineering the sessions, who taught it to me very specifically.
that's all?!

well, possibly enough to illustrate our different approach and view on things:

i assisted someone for 15 years who did some of the stuff we keep talking about after decades: although i still have some sketches, drawings, pics, recordings (and tons of stories) from that time, although i get to work in this old place again, although i could get a friend to provide one of the tape machines we used back then (and i even bought one of the original mics we used in that studio/hall years ago), i simply do not believe that what was created back then could get re-created these days,

certainly not by clinging on to just ONE particular aspect (mic at the tail end)!

great for nostalgia but there is no way going back, for theoretical and practical reasons (some of which i illustrated in my previous post).

___

your additional insinuations ('your approach is flawed in that you see the history as an abstract and inaccurate concept') imo are not really helpfull either - all the best!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
that's all?!

well, possibly enough to illustrate our different approach and view on things:

i assisted someone for 15 years who did some of the stuff we keep talking about after decades: although i still have some sketches, drawings, pics, recordings (and tons of stories) from that time, although i get to work in this old place again, although i could get a friend to provide one of the tape machines we used back then (and i even bought one of the original mics we used in that studio/hall years ago), i simply do not believe that what was created back then could get re-created these days,

certainly not by clinging on to just ONE particular aspect (mic at the tail end)!

great for nostalgia but there is no way going back, for theoretical and practical reasons (some of which i illustrated in my previous post).

___

your additional insinuations imo are not really helpfull either - all the best!
I’m getting a little lost in the weeds, here. Deedeeyeah, are you arguing fundamentally against mics at the tail of the piano?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
, i simply do not believe that what was created back then could get re-created these days,
!
I find it difficult to believe that you don’t have standard techniques which you use on a regular basis, and I don’t see how my practicing a particular technique is any different.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avillalta View Post
I’m getting a little lost in the weeds, here. Deedeeyeah, are you arguing fundamentally against mics at the tail of the piano?
yes - out of experience, comparison and preference.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
yes - out of experience, comparison and preference.
Maybe you just didn’t know what you were doing.m?

Literally hundreds, if not thousands, of major records were made using this technique but sure, your personal diddling experimenting should discount all of that. JFC.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
yes - out of experience, comparison and preference.
Do you have an example we can listen to that would demonstrate the sound you prefer? If not your own, one that exemplifies the aesthetic you’re espousing?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #37
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Stradivariusz's Avatar
Very interesting subject.
Wonder if anone had similar aproach to harpsichord/cembalo.
Will try myself when the chance will come.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avillalta View Post
Do you have an example we can listen to that would demonstrate the sound you prefer? If not your own, one that exemplifies the aesthetic you’re espousing?
of course... - however, i'm somewhat reluctant for various reasons: the hostility i experience from some folks (not you! appreciate you're asking), the fact that i neither own any of the mixes nor want to bother the agents to get permission for some snippets nor bother the folks in the archieve to dig into things and a few more reasons...) - a couple of options though:

amongst others, i'm going to record and mix ron carter quartett and iiro rantala in the next couple of weeks - yeah, jazz, but chances i'm allowed to use some of the recordings are much higher, especially when i'm asking in advance (and i'm almost sure iiro woudn't mind).

or: the demo recording i did (and referred to in an earlier post) - once the competition for which the demo way made is over, i guess the pianist would be ok if i posted some of it here.

or: i could do a few pics how i'm setting up mics on pianos.

or: we could go on discussing things from a theoretical point of view.

in any case, i think any of this would need to go into another thread - feel free to start one on favourite piano mic and mix technique and i promise i'll contribute.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #39
Kevin,
One thing I will say about your offset tail mics is that I’m questioning how much lid-reflection you’re actually getting at either position (difficult to tell from the image). Diffraction, yes; but, at that distance, and at an even height with the lid, I’d say all of the 1st reflections off of the lid are vectoring into the harp (those pitches coming from the hammer end) as then to below, and down-stage of your tail mics (for those pitches originating from the strings and sound-board near the tail-end). It also appears that you’re outside of the critical distance of sound-incidence from the strings and sound-board where the comb-filtering from early reflections has already become highly randomized.
This critique is from a visual analysis only. My piano mic’ing habits don’t often include tail-mics unless I feel there’s a lack of low-frequency weight from the instrument/room/player. That said... Anecdotally, I find some Steinway Ds project a significant amount of low end from the tail, while others don’t.
Short story long; I don’t see any reason why tail mics have to be parallel to the horizon. I’d be curious to hear what the difference might have been between equal height and uneven height.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Maybe you just didn’t know what you were doing.m?

Literally hundreds, if not thousands, of major records were made using this technique but sure, your personal diddling experimenting should discount all of that. JFC.
see, you value other engineer's approaches- but trash mine although you know nothing about my work except that i do not favour setting up mics at the tail end of the piano. and then there are these unnecassary but ongoing sneaky comments... - guess you wouldn't mind if we both stop commenting each others posts too?!

(for the record; i did close to 5000 live mixes, broadcasts and albums so far, about equally split between classical music, jazz and blues/rock - not exactly a newbie doing uninformed experiments)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #41
Great. Now, since I’m avoiding a difficult edit... Here’s my take on devolution of the discussion of tail-mics in this thread, and where it becomes derailed.

Kevin is postulating a discussion on a tail technique based on historical research and personal experience. This tail technique is widely used in the genre (the sound of a piano in the acoustic space it inhabits). He’s cited examples of recordings made with this technique that we can all reference. He’s asking for opinions and experiences related to this specific technique.
Deedeeyeah seems to have opinions and preferences based on their own experience and practices, and have discounted this technique. To be really reductive here, I’ll make an analogy: Kevin: “guys, I tried sharp-cheddar on my cheeseburger, have you guys tried sharp-cheddar on your cheeseburgers?” - deedeeyeah: “I don’t like cheeseburgers”.

Perhaps we’d be better served if deedeeyeah could provide a reference point that we could hear, it would make the criticism a bit more constructive. Deedee, can we taste your burger? Can you point us to a burger (not cheeseburger) you like so that we can see where you’re coming from?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #42
I don’t think there’s anything particularly sneaky that I’ve said, I feel I’m being pretty blunt about how I feel.

And for the record, I haven’t commented on your threads, only responded to your inflammatory and ignorant comments on mine. You showed up on a thread I started almost a decade ago, talking sh!t about its topic, which is something I care about. Of course I’m going to respond.

I don’t value your opinion, because I don’t know you or your work, and you haven’t offered anything I would consider constructive. You say you’ve recorded a lot; how would I know that, or anything else about you? You are anonymous on here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
see, you value other engineer's approaches- but trash mine although you know nothing about my work except that i do not favour setting up mics at the tail end of the piano. and then there are these unnecassary but ongoing sneaky comments... - guess you wouldn't mind if we both stop commenting each others posts too?!

(for the record; i did close to 5000 live mixes, broadcasts and albums so far, about equally split between classical music, jazz and blues/rock - not exactly a newbie doing uninformed experiments)

Last edited by king2070lplaya; 2 weeks ago at 08:48 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #43
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by avillalta View Post
Great. Now, since I’m avoiding a difficult edit... Here’s my take on devolution of the discussion of tail-mics in this thread, and where it becomes derailed.

Kevin is postulating a discussion on a tail technique based on historical research and personal experience. This tail technique is widely used in the genre (the sound of a piano in the acoustic space it inhabits). He’s cited examples of recordings made with this technique that we can all reference. He’s asking for opinions and experiences related to this specific technique.
Deedeeyeah seems to have opinions and preferences based on their own experience and practices, and have discounted this technique. To be really reductive here, I’ll make an analogy: Kevin: “guys, I tried sharp-cheddar on my cheeseburger, have you guys tried sharp-cheddar on your cheeseburgers?” - deedeeyeah: “I don’t like cheeseburgers”.

Perhaps we’d be better served if deedeeyeah could provide a reference point that we could hear, it would make the criticism a bit more constructive. Deedee, can we taste your burger? Can you point us to a burger (not cheeseburger) you like so that we can see where you’re coming from?
like your analogy, especially since i don't like cheese much, no kidding :-)

i answered your question already in my post #38
Old 2 weeks ago
  #44
It was a thing I did one time like, 8 years ago or something (literally the day this thread was started), when I was still learning how to record, based on a photo I saw. That may have been the only time I ever tried it, it certainly hasn’t become a habit. Once I met my mentor, and he gave me the Bible on the subject, I’ve just done it that way and it’s worked great. Or terribly, depending on who in this thread you’re asking

Quote:
Originally Posted by avillalta View Post
Kevin,
One thing I will say about your offset tail mics is that I’m questioning how much lid-reflection you’re actually getting at either position (difficult to tell from the image). Diffraction, yes; but, at that distance, and at an even height with the lid, I’d say all of the 1st reflections off of the lid are vectoring into the harp (those pitches coming from the hammer end) as then to below, and down-stage of your tail mics (for those pitches originating from the strings and sound-board near the tail-end). It also appears that you’re outside of the critical distance of sound-incidence from the strings and sound-board where the comb-filtering from early reflections has already become highly randomized.
This critique is from a visual analysis only. My piano mic’ing habits don’t often include tail-mics unless I feel there’s a lack of low-frequency weight from the instrument/room/player. That said... Anecdotally, I find some Steinway Ds project a significant amount of low end from the tail, while others don’t.
Short story long; I don’t see any reason why tail mics have to be parallel to the horizon. I’d be curious to hear what the difference might have been between equal height and uneven height.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
It was a thing I did one time like, 8 years ago or something (literally the day this thread was started), when I was still learning how to record, based on a photo I saw. That may have been the only time I ever tried it, it certainly hasn’t become a habit. Once I met my mentor, and he gave me the Bible on the subject, I’ve just done it that way and it’s worked great. Or terribly, depending on who in this thread you’re asking
Oh, well. I hope your younger self really takes my mansplaining to heart
Old 2 weeks ago
  #46
In the spirit of being childish and having the last word, let me tell you all my favorite things about the “standard 1’ spaced omnis Decca-style tail positioned piano mic” technique (TM):

1) it’s easy to setup and manipulate, and offers a nice, consistent approach that’s easily repeatable and gives a really pleasant, detailed sound to most repertoire. It even works when recording jazz!

2) if you’re doing video, the mics can stay out of the shot, even in situations where you can’t hang them.

3) it blends nicely with artificial and acoustically-captured reverb, offering some flexibility in post.

4) It works well as a spot technique or a main mic technique. When using as a spot technique for ensembles like piano trios, quintets, or crook-positioned soloists, it doesn’t displace those musicians or cause the piano spot to be too close to the instrument for a balanced capture.

Feel free to DM for more info if you’re interested. This is after all, as has been stated here already, the only way to record a piano correctly.

Last edited by king2070lplaya; 2 weeks ago at 09:21 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #47
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Decca tail technique also much in evidence in the video cited here: Larger than life piano
Old 2 weeks ago
  #48
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Pax.


Old 2 weeks ago
  #49
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
of course... - however, i'm somewhat reluctant for various reasons: the hostility i experience from some folks (not you! appreciate you're asking), the fact that i neither own any of the mixes nor want to bother the agents to get permission for some snippets nor bother the folks in the archieve to dig into things and a few more reasons...) - a couple of options though:

amongst others, i'm going to record and mix ron carter quartett and iiro rantala in the next couple of weeks - yeah, jazz, but chances i'm allowed to use some of the recordings are much higher, especially when i'm asking in advance (and i'm almost sure iiro woudn't mind).

or: the demo recording i did (and referred to in an earlier post) - once the competition for which the demo way made is over, i guess the pianist would be ok if i posted some of it here.

or: i could do a few pics how i'm setting up mics on pianos.

or: we could go on discussing things from a theoretical point of view.

in any case, i think any of this would need to go into another thread - feel free to start one on favourite piano mic and mix technique and i promise i'll contribute.
It's not even necessary to engage in posting your "own recorded material" if that's a stretch that troubles you or your clients...you could simply cite YouTube or Soundcloud or Spotify or similar public/commercial sources which highlight the recorded sounds or methods you respect or endorse. As you say, a new thread devoted to this would be a good idea.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Decca tail technique also much in evidence in the video cited here: Larger than life piano
Yeah but from all the way back in 2016? Surely those vintage sounds can’t be recreated in this modern era! And who even knows who that engineer was (Philip Siney) or if he even really used the tail technique, given all the myth and misinformation that abounds these days? I don’t think there’s really anything to be gleaned from such examples.

(Sarcasm, of course)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
It's not even necessary to engage in posting your "own recorded material" if that's a stretch that troubles you or your clients...you could simply cite YouTube or Soundcloud or Spotify or similar public/commercial sources which highlight the recorded sounds or methods you respect or endorse. As you say, a new thread devoted to this would be a good idea.
"experiment on your own time and dime instead of arguing why people should give you theirs is what I say"
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