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Neumann KM 183 or KM 183 D?
Old 24th July 2012
  #1
Gear Head
 

Neumann KM 183 or KM 183 D?

Recorded this organ piece simultaneously with
Neumann KM 183 D stereo set -> DMI-2 portable -> Nagra VI
and
Neumann KM 183 stereo set -> Nagra VI

Microphone spacing about 54 cm - no angling

Which of the clips sounds best in your ears?
Which clip is KM 183 and which is KM 183 D?
Attached Files

01 Spor 01.mp3 (3.24 MB, 3167 views)

02 Spor 02.mp3 (3.22 MB, 3105 views)

Old 25th July 2012
  #2
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boojum's Avatar
I prefer sample two. It seems to have more sense of depth, a less "flat" sound field. They both sound great. The differences are small.
Old 25th July 2012
  #3
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jnorman's Avatar
i agree with the booj. sample 2 sounds quite different from sample 1, which i wouldn't really have expected. sample #1 seems to be about what the organ probably actually sounded like in the hall (it is clean and present -a nice realistic sounding capture), while sample #2 seems to have presented a smoother and more refined version of that original sound - very nice.

i will be interested to hear which mics match the samples..
Old 25th July 2012
  #4
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Like sample 2 better as well, wider soundstage, deeper bass. This is digital one?
Old 25th July 2012
  #5
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Thanks to all
David Spearritt is right - #2 is digital
Old 25th July 2012
  #6
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Gotta get me some of those KMD's.
Old 25th July 2012
  #7
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In their spec's Neumann do not claim that the passive KM183 capsule (matching the KMD) is identical in construction to the original KM183) but it would be reasonable to assume that bearing the same designatior, their sound would be consistent. But the passive KM183 is mentioned to be a "smaller" capsule.

So, in terms of the difference in sound, is it possible that any change might be due to the "new" construction of the KM183 detachable capsule, as well as the digital preamp?

Ideally, one could swap the capsules between the analog and digital pairs, but the original KM183 ain't built that way, so ..

Maybe one would like to compare the same capsules on a KM-A and the KM-D - and with the original KM183? Or may be just accept there is a small but postitive difference discernable and move on. (Anybody heard of a recent new digital mic release?)
Old 25th July 2012
  #8
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
(Anybody heard of a recent new digital mic release?)
There are currently over 40 AES42 digital microphones:-

Neumann

D-01 Large diaphragm switchable-pattern

KM-D series
KK 183 diffuse field omni
KK 184 cardioid
KK 185 super-cardioid
KK 131 nearfield (flat) omni
KK 133 diffuse field omni with ball
KK 143 wide cardioid (sub-cardioid)
KK 145 cardioid with bass roll-off
KK 120 figure-8

TLM 103-D Large diaphragm cardioid
KMS 104-D Vocal cardioid
KMS 105-D Vocal super-cardioid
KMR 81-D Short gun
KMR 82-D Long gun


Schoeps

Collette series – CMD 2 with:
MK 2 nearfield omni (flat)
MK 2H omni with a mild HF lift
MK 2S omni with a slight HF lift
MK 3 diffuse field omni
MK 21 wide-cardioid
MK 21H wide-cardioid with a mild HF lift
MK 22 open cardioid
MK 4 cardioid
MK 4V cardioid (vertical, side fire)
MK 41 super-cardioid
MK 41V super-cardioid (vertical, side-fire)
MK 8 figure-8
MK 5 passive switchable, omni / cardioid
BLM 3 hemispherical boundary
BLM boundary adaptor for MK capsules
Plus various speech-optimised MK capsule versions

SuperCMIT gun microphone with DSP


Sennheiser

MKH 8000 series – MZD 8000 with:
MKH 8020 omni
MKH 8040 cardioid
MKH 8050 super-cardioid
MKH 8060 short gun
MKH 8070 long gun (rifle)

MZD 8000 + Y-cable with:
MKH 8020 stereoset 2 x omni
MKH 8040 stereoset 2 x cardioid
MZD 8000 + XLR-5F adaptor cable with:

MKH 800 TWIN infinitely variable pattern


Microtech Gefell

MV 230 omni-directional measurement microphone with a selection of interchangeable capsules



I certainly know of more coming, I think one quite soon, but I will not pre-empt any official manufacturer announcement.
Old 25th July 2012
  #9
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Rutger's Avatar
 

Nice comparison! The digital mic seems to have a more extended LF response, I like it more. Which device was the clock master?
Old 25th July 2012
  #10
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
Nice comparison! The digital mic seems to have a more extended LF response, I like it more. Which device was the clock master?
Interesting question.

When I record with my Nagra VI, I use the Nagra as the master clock.

I take the clock from the D-connector of the Nagra and feed it into the BNC of the Neumann DMI-2P (and loop to the second DMI-2P if I am using four digital mics).

But you can, just as easily, use the DMI-2P as the clock and slave the Nagra VI to the AES3 input.
Old 25th July 2012
  #11
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Interesting question.

But you can, just as easily, use the DMI-2P as the clock and slave the Nagra VI to the AES3 input.
That was what I did, since I did not have the (special made?) clock cable referred to by John Willett. Such a cable is on my wish list...
Old 25th July 2012
  #12
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorbenH View Post
That was what I did, since I did not have the (special made?) clock cable referred to by John Willett. Such a cable is on my wish list...
Yes, it was specially made. I did it this way as the Nagra VI has such a superb clock.
Attached Thumbnails
Neumann KM 183 or KM 183 D?-p3080008.jpg  
Old 25th July 2012
  #13
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Yes, it was specially made. I did it this way as the Nagra VI has such a superb clock.
What an elegant solution! I'll ask my Danish Nagra agent to make a cable like this - if possible.
Old 25th July 2012
  #14
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boojum's Avatar
Thanks for the blind post. I think I would have had an in-built bias against digital. However it seems the better in this sample. And no doubt in others to come.

I would hope to hear a Schoeps comparison soon. Hopefully we will hear that here.

Cheers
Old 25th July 2012
  #15
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Plush's Avatar
Nice sound with dignity! I too preferred sample #2. Solidity of bass is clearly heard on that one.
Old 25th July 2012
  #16
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amfortas2006's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorbenH View Post
Recorded this organ piece simultaneously with
Neumann KM 183 D stereo set -> DMI-2 portable -> Nagra VI
and
Neumann KM 183 stereo set -> Nagra VI

Microphone spacing about 54 cm - no angling

Which of the clips sounds best in your ears?
Which clip is KM 183 and which is KM 183 D?
is this the old KM 183 or the KM 183A (the analog one)?
Old 25th July 2012
  #17
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by amfortas2006 View Post
is this the old KM 183 or the KM 183A (the analog one)?
My understanding is that it was the current KM183 rather than the new KM-A with the KK183 head.
Old 25th July 2012
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
There are currently over 40 AES42 digital microphones:-
I had originally written "outside the Neumann/Sennheiser range, and possibly Schoeps" but decided to leave it general, hence the catalog. It looks a lot less impressive, if you reduce it to "Body (plus range of existing capsules)" form. And disappointment at Schoeps' lack of support for AES 42 Mode II, which means SRCs on each input if using more than one mic.

Perhaps one needs to reflect on the other end - the amount of input equipment offering direct support for AES42. The revolution is a long time coming. So some kudos to Neumann/Sennheiser for endurance.

(PS. still no sign on the horizon of the 8030 fig-8?)
Old 25th July 2012
  #19
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
I had originally written "outside the Neumann/Sennheiser range, and possibly Schoeps" but decided to leave it general, hence the catalog. It looks a lot less impressive, if you reduce it to "Body (plus range of existing capsules)" form. And disappointment at Schoeps' lack of support for AES 42 Mode II, which means SRCs on each input if using more than one mic.

Perhaps one needs to reflect on the other end - the amount of input equipment offering direct support for AES42. The revolution is a long time coming. So some kudos to Neumann/Sennheiser for endurance.

(PS. still no sign on the horizon of the 8030 fig-8?)
The SD788T and AETA 4MinX recorders take AES42 direct in.

There are quite a number of interfaces and several mixers also take AES42.

I listed them all I'm my AES papers last year.

The MKH8030 is still in development as are other capsules I think.
Old 26th July 2012
  #20
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AFAIK, apart from the manaufacturer's kits, no external device (eg., 788T, DMC842) supports Mode 2, and thus multiple mics run asynchronously and the inputs require SRCs. And you still need the manufacturer's kit to configure the mic anyway.

Performance differences aside, I contend that the AES42 ecosphere is still developing more slowly than expected and is still lacking enough creature comforts to be an attractive dwellng place for other than the Marco Polo's* of this world.

[* insert Columbus, van Dieman, etc., here according to national preference.]
Old 26th July 2012
  #21
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by amfortas2006 View Post
is this the old KM 183 or the KM 183A (the analog one)?
John Willett has already answered! It was the old KM 183 (stereo set).
Old 26th July 2012
  #22
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amfortas2006's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorbenH View Post
John Willett has already answered! It was the old KM 183 (stereo set).
okaaaaaay...

because, if it would have been the KM 183A against the KM 183D the difference would probably be smaller, since Neumann claims that the electronics in the bodies were updated in the new KM-A and KM-D series (lower noise-floor)


I own the 184A and the 120A and have used them a couple of times until now as an M/S pair, and the 184A as spots.
Old 27th July 2012
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorbenH View Post
Recorded this organ piece simultaneously with
Neumann KM 183 D stereo set -> DMI-2 portable -> Nagra VI
and Neumann KM 183 stereo set -> Nagra VI
I decided to apply a couple of objective analysis techniques to these two samples, to complement the subjective analysis undertaken in the rest of this thread. The two methods were a comparative spectral analysis, and also file comparison using Audio Diffmaker, an analysis tool which is the subject of much contention in another part of this forum.

The files were decoded to .wav and saved. Level match was checked and shown to be within 0.5dB. The two files were roughly aligned by removing excess silence from the start of sample 2.

The comparative spectral analysis (SF Pro10 spec an, 16384 resolution) showed that the spectra were nearly identical. The most obvious difference was that below 100Hz, in sample 2 there appeared to be an increase in energy below 100Hz between 1 and 2 dB. There was also an increase in energy of 1 or 2 dB in the R channel of sample 2 around 200Hz. Otherwise there were many points of discrepancy across the band of around a dB or so, nothing systematic. So spectral analysis might suggest agreement with the subjective observations - slightly better bass otherwise pretty much the same.

The Audio Diffmaker test reported a sample rate drift of less than 0.5 ppm (but still recommended using SRC correction, which didn't change the result), an optimum time offset between reference and compared files of 370us and level correction of less than 0.5dB. The resulting correlation reported was 15dB, which means ' not very much'. The resulting difference file was only a few dB lower level than the reference which means not much cancellation occurred, spectral analysis showing about a 10dB cancellation below 200Hz. Visual inspections at sample level on the original files showed no discernable waveform similarity which could support attempts at manual waveform cancellation. Sadly, nothing useful to be observed here.

My observations are that, despite early promise, the files are probably not good for obective analysis for the following reasons:
A. The recordings appear to be synchronised, but there may not be consistent time offset between the sampling points, so precise time alignment will be difficult to achieve. Even manual sample alignment appears not to be possible;
B. Waveform integrity (to ensure accurate cancellation) may be compromised by the .mp3 coding/decoding process. Maybe better results could be achieved on the original .wav files (16bit resolution is not likely to be a factor).

The results (or lack of them) reflect an earlier lack of meaningful outcome from a similar comparision I made between a Taiwanese and German ORTF mic configuration. In this case both were carefully aligned mechanically with little space between them, and were recorded simultaneously through an identical chain to the same DAW. Comparison results were likewise limited. Subjectively, an intercut A-B file showed it was difficult to discern any audible difference between the two mic arrays.

So while the spectral analysis seems to support the subjective assessment, an objective examination with AudioDiffmaker has not produced significant results in this case. There could be potential in making such "real world" comparisions if the technique is possibly more rigourously pursued. AudioDiffmaker may need further development to be reliable in such applications.

Thank you for your time. Goodnight, and good luck!
Old 29th July 2012
  #24
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

Very nice samples. Thank you for sharing !
The KM 183 D sounds more detailed. Its stronger response in the lows (about + 2 dB in 30-40 Hz band) might result from some attenuation of the KM 183 by the Nagra preamps ?
I hear more difference between these Neumann omni SDCs the caspules of which have the same specifications than between the Schoeps infracardioid CMC6-MK21 (+ Fireface UFX) and the Neumann digital infracardioid KM 143 D (+ DMI-2) in this piano test:
Attached Files

01-120128_2304.mp3 (7.22 MB, 2552 views)

02-120128_2304.mp3 (7.22 MB, 2568 views)

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