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Grand piano tracking -- the lid is killing me!
Old 3rd October 2019
  #61
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

I've had pretty good luck with putting multipattern LDC's right up against the lid -- almost touching -- in omni. Geometrically speaking, the mics don't hear the lid because reflection into the mics is almost entirely eliminated. For me, it usually works better on short stick.
Old 3rd October 2019
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I've had pretty good luck with putting multipattern LDC's right up against the lid -- almost touching -- in omni. Geometrically speaking, the mics don't hear the lid because reflection into the mics is almost entirely eliminated. For me, it usually works better on short stick.
I've had success with this too, you get the advantages of a pzm/blm without the drawbacks of mounting it, falling into the piano, etc. It seems to peel back a layer or two of coloration that you otherwise always get with close miked concert piano.
Old 3rd October 2019
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I've had success with this too, you get the advantages of a pzm/blm without the drawbacks of mounting it, falling into the piano, etc. It seems to peel back a layer or two of coloration that you otherwise always get with close miked concert piano.
Getting the mic stands to cooperate and get the height exactly right can be a PITA, though.
Old 3rd October 2019
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Getting the mic stands to cooperate and get the height exactly right can be a PITA, though.
yep, that's the truth..when thous of an inch matter, and boom arm friction really needs to work without fail (or droop)

Some kinda suction cup mechanism could/should work..but I haven't seen anything along those lines that I'd yet trust ? There's a lot at stake if it lets go.....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #65
Here for the gear
 

Hello,

i'm about to record a jazz trio Piano drums uprightbass in a small room .
I was also wandering about the lid and the optimal use of the space.

i think i 'll try to use the piano lid to protect piano mic from drums spill. Have you ever try ? Is it possible to find the right angle without hiding too much the musicians?

My mic option is two TLM193 in A-B over the string and two dpa4061 with magnet near the holes. I also have two schoeps MK4 but i think i will use them on Drums.

Have you ever try to remove the lid and work with figure of eight pattern in this context ? I was wondering about that.

Alexandre / Nomad-record.com
Old 4 weeks ago
  #66
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fred2bern's Avatar
I had good results with 2x 2TLM107 in fig 8 on 2 Steinway for a Mozart double concerto. 2 microphones for one piano.
One piano in the null of the other one microphone.
Result was prefect for all the artists.

Fred.
Attached Thumbnails
Grand piano tracking -- the lid is killing me!-mozart5.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred2bern View Post
I had good results with 2x 2TLM107 in fig 8 on 2 Steinway for a Mozart double concerto. 2 microphones for one piano.
One piano in the null of the other one microphone.
Result was prefect for all the artists.

Fred.
That picture makes it look like you have the other piano in the rear lobe of the fig-8 and the nulls are to the side
Old 4 weeks ago
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
That picture makes it look like you have the other piano in the rear lobe of the fig-8 and the nulls are to the side
Just to be clear, the bottom of a fig8 is also in the null, not only the sides.
Maybe the attached picture will help you to understand...

So I confirm, one piano is in the null of the other one.

Fred.
Attached Thumbnails
Grand piano tracking -- the lid is killing me!-figure-8-pattern.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred2bern View Post
Just to be clear, the bottom of a fig8 is also in the null, not only the sides.
Maybe the attached picture will help you to understand...

So I confirm, one piano is in the null of the other one.

Fred.
Yes, that was already understood (the bottom is also a side when considering a mic capsule diaphragm. Grab any coin to help you understand.) But those nulls also appear to be hitting the lower body of the piano and not eliminating the harp or the lid reflections.

Glad you got a good recording.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #70
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred2bern View Post
Note that a Figure-8 rejects more from the sides than a Cardioid does from the rear!
.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Note that a Figure-8 rejects more from the sides than a Cardioid does from the rear!
.
But it has the same direct reverb ratio or distance factor as a Cardioid.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #72
Here for the gear
 

Nice configuration.
With high ceiling room it helps.
The nulls is very effective for sure but in small room , with a low roof and a drum on the side, i'm afraid of getting too much reflection in the rear lobe of the piano mic.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
But it has the same direct reverb ratio or distance factor as a Cardioid.
Exactly!

So (from a practical perspective) that reverb (or other "unwanted" sound) is coming from a different place in the room than it would be if you had used a cardioid in the same orientation.

...And all of these properties (of different mics) can be exploited for your control of the sounds you're going for!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #74
Having done quite a few commercial classical and jazz recordings there are lots of things that you can do to "tame" the reflections off the piano lid. Taking the lid off is one solution but the OP says he cannot do that. Making the lid vertical is another idea. Hanging a packing blanket on the lid and using non marring clamps to hold it in place is another idea. The simplest is using the proper microphones placed accordingly. I tend to use LDC like the AT 4050s on omni or bi-directional about four to six feet from the piano and at "ear height". The last recording I did was with a Decca Tree and three AT4050 microphones in omni setting. The record company said "it was one of the most believable piano recordings that they had heard and sounded like they were in the concert hall listening". The best thing the OP can do is to do a lot of experimenting while the pianist is in rehearsal and then choose what sounds the best for the final recording.

One caveat is to take careful measurements of where your mics are setup and mark the microphones so you put them back exactly where you last left them. Taking photos with your IPHONE also helps.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Making the lid vertical is another idea.
No.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #76
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
No.
Care to say why? Just wondering.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #77
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
The last recording I did was with a Decca Tree and three AT4050 microphones in omni setting.
Which preamps and recorder were you using?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Care to say why? Just wondering.
If you're going to raise a grand's lid up toward vertical, you'd better have a roadie (and/or strong insurance policy) stationed on the other side, to catch it as it falls !
Too risky, for minimal gains....the hinges won't stop the lid from 'going over'

In this forum and elsewhere I've seen mention of a longer than usual stick employed to lift the lid somewhat higher than usual, which ideally should spread the sound dispersion over a greater area. This might have the (only ?) advantage of allowing you to go a bit further away and higher with your mics.

Simply removing the lid and changing your miking accordingly is probably a better approach.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Care to say why? Just wondering.
Pretty certain those hinges are not designed for sustained full lid mass support vertically down.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Care to say why? Just wondering.
Unless your mics are pointed straight down at the
soundboard you will get lid reflections layered on top of the direct sound.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #81
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
If you're going to raise a grand's lid up toward vertical, you'd better have a roadie (and/or strong insurance policy) stationed on the other side, to catch it as it falls !
Too risky, for minimal gains....the hinges won't stop the lid from 'going over'

In this forum and elsewhere I've seen mention of a longer than usual stick employed to lift the lid somewhat higher than usual, which ideally should spread the sound dispersion over a greater area. This might have the (only ?) advantage of allowing you to go a bit further away and higher with your mics.

Simply removing the lid and changing your miking accordingly is probably a better approach.
Well in my case I had a very nice wooden step ladder I could clamp the lid to (with some padding) so there was no danger of the lid falling and it took some of the weight off the hinges. I would not normally do this but it worked in this case. Mic selection and placement is usually the best way to solve these types of problems. FWIW
Old 3 weeks ago
  #82
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogmusic View Post
Which preamps and recorder were you using?
An Allen & Heath ZED-14 Mixer and a TASCAM DR100 MKII Digital recorder, I fed it with the analog outputs of the console. Sorry no esoteric equipment.

It was simply a GREAT performer, good hall, good mics and time to experiment with mic placement.

I would like to have some esoteric equipment but I cannot justify the cost at the present time.

FWIW.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #83
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
An Allen & Heath ZED-14 Mixer and a TASCAM DR100 MKII Digital recorder, I fed it with the analog outputs of the console. Sorry no esoteric equipment.

It was simply a GREAT performer, good hall, good mics and time to experiment with mic placement.

I would like to have some esoteric equipment but I cannot justify the cost at the present time.

FWIW.
Thanks for that info.

It is great to hear that you got that high quality recording with that equipment, a testament to mic placement and of course performance.

Was your connection xlr out to xlr line-in on the Tascam?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #84
Yes XLR to XLR from the A&H to the TASCAM. I really liked the A&H mixer and the TASCAM digital recorder combination but have recently switched over to the MIXPRE 3 M (original model) with really good results. I just sold my three matched Audio Technica 4050 microphones and my Decca Tree rig to a person in Scandinavia since I am not doing that much recording lately. He seems very happy with them. Thanks for your questions.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #85
Gear Addict
 

For spot mics, try putting the mics at a height where they are above the fully raised lid and looking down on the strings, that way you won't get a lid reflection.

Or, you could use fig 8s set lower down towards the strings and use the nulls to lower the effect of early reflections.

Recording at a distance will give you the piano sound as the audience hears it, and, will arrive at the mic with direct and early reflections combined as one piano sound, but without the cancellation you're trying to avoid.
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