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please help
Old 24th May 2003
  #1
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

please help

im doing a remote gig this next friday so i have one week to get everything together. i have the video crew together with 4 cameras and this will be for a DVD release. its a live show, start to finish, 20 minute set [give or take]... this is what i have so far.

the club. a 350 head venue with a backstage room and the FOH off to the side a thirdway [maybe halfway] back. the sound guy is REALLY good there.

im planning on doubling up on most sources because i dont have a xformer iso splitter. i have no way of splitting off his runs. i most likely dont have any way of aquiring it by next friday unless i meet someone this week in town with one.

so i was going to set up my G4 backstage and make a little CR out of the room there with my preamps and run a snake up on stage and get the kick/snare/toms/floor/overheads/bass di/bass cab/guitar 1/guitar 2 running into my 1296>DP. then at the FOH position, i was going to bring out my ADAT XT and get vox1/vox2/vox3/kick/FOH L/FOH R/room 1/room 2 to fill the 8 tracks on that. then using the kick to line up all the tracks back in the studio for mix.

BUT, i then remembered the ADAT XT is only 16 bit.... i was going 24bit backstage... i guess i will have to SFC up on the ADAT tracks. im guessing the resolution difference wont matter much since the noise floor will be EXTREMELY high and it is some sleazy rock and roll. it will be at 48khz all the way around.


i figure is A] my computer crashes [god forbid] i have the FOH mix and room mics on the ADAT along with VOX... but PA balances are always weird mixing in with natural volume off stage in smaller places and B] im worried about one being 16bit and the other being 24bit. damn i wish i had a 24track MDR.

how is this sounding setup wise? nightmare? should i keep digging around for more gear to borrow that night? splitter? or 24track MDR?


thoughts, suggestions?
Old 24th May 2003
  #2
Lives for gear
 
De chromium cob's Avatar
 

Why dont you use one of your Neutrik patch bays as a 24 channel split? Then all you would need is the cabling to go from TRS to XLR or whatever to split the snake send. Or you could probably use the channels insert send as a direct out.....I take it you worked out something with the Orange Peel? Let me know how it works out....
Scott
www.syborgstudios.com

Oh, and by the way- Make sure you bring a battery backup for the digital stuff!
Old 24th May 2003
  #3
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

thats a great idea but the 1/4>xlr cabling i would have to find... but at least it gives me another option to think about.

this is at another club, not orange peel. but i might have to contact them and see if they know someone who has a splitter thats XLR based [got the cabling for that]

if you were here, i would definately be hiring you to help me out on this one.



still working out the feasability on what i talked to you about on the phone. right now, a tracking studio is looking grim but a mixing room is fully taking shape [in surround]
Old 24th May 2003
  #4
Lives for gear
 

I would make friends with your local rental house and get some sort of a 24 track recorder *and* a splitter. If the power is good, I've made do with non-transformer isolated splits. Literally a bunch of y-cords. If you can get FOH and/or video on the same power feed, you probably won't have ground loops. It sometimes doesn't work so transformers are always safer. But in a crunch....

As for the 16 vs. 24 bit issue, what DAW are you using? Even in Pro Tools or DP where you are limited to a single bit and sample rate, you can set up your session as a 24 bit session and record off the ADAT digitally at 24... You'll end up with 8 bits of zeros, but that won't hurt anything. Lots of other DAWs out there can deal with multiple bit rates in a session (heck, Samplitude and Sequoia on the PC can even deal with multiple sample rates in a single session).

If it is really important, I would also suggest having a backup of some sort. Multi-track b/u is best, but at a minimum, make a great 2-track recording of it in case something gets corrupted.

Good luck.

--Ben
Old 24th May 2003
  #5
If you havent already, I would establish a system to track a diffcult song in soundcheck and to be able to ask em to 'do one again' during an encore if they mess one song up...

No tech help ideas,
Old 24th May 2003
  #6
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

as far as the performance goes... this is a one shot deal. either works or doesnt work. no redo's. i am going to do a full sound check earlier in the day and have them do their whole set [its ONLY 20 minutes] and make sure the system is stable.

it just took me 18 hous to zero all data on my 80GB hard drive, im pulling everything OUT of that machine [ATTO, SCSI drives, G4port] so it is BARE bones and rock solid recording to a slaved DMA drive on the machine.



rental houses... now thats funny. let me know where one is in this town it strictly has to be personal stock and i need to find those persons. spending this week gathering it all.

a splitter box would be nice. i am going to head to the club tomorrow to check interfacing with the board and the stuff i will need there.

i REALLY REALLY wish i had an MDR 24track.
Old 24th May 2003
  #7
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Roland's Avatar
I would check out the clubs PA and see if they have direct outs that you could wire straight into your system. You could then bring up the room mics on their desk and mute them to the PA. Failing this ring a good hire company and hire a split. Shouldn't cost more than about $150 and if this show is as important as it seems to be (four cameramen, additional sound guy, ending up on a DVD) there must be budget for this. Also I would hire something like an ADAT HD24. For the cost of this hire to be sure you get it would be worth every penny!

Look at it this way. If its a cock-up how pissed is everybody going to be at you? The Band, Cameramen, Manager, people putting together the DVD? Don't penny pinch here, do the job properly or decline it. If it goes well the most you will get is a thanks and a pat on the back. If it goes wrong you will never hear the end of it.

Good luck, let us all know how it went.

Regards


Roland
Old 24th May 2003
  #8
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

the ONLY person that is going to be pissed at me is ME. IM bankrolling it, IM producing it, IM organizing it... and hopefully, IM recording it without a hitch... and IM releasing it. at WORST, i will get the ADAT with the vox/FOHmix/room which will be able to do the mix in QUAD with vox added to the center channel... thats my WORST case scenario. best case scenario is everything goes as planned. if i could find another ADAT in town to use, i would run another 8 off the board for more insurance.

i have thought about using the boards direct outs but i was wanting to get a better pre on the deal.


its two cameramen, 2 steady shots. and hopefully two strippers flanking the stage
Old 24th May 2003
  #9
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Steve Smith's Avatar
 

Why not use your pres and give FOH the line returns and then take the direct outs? if it is a decent console this may be a cool option, and I would think the live guy would be happy, given your gear.
Old 25th May 2003
  #10
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Roland's Avatar
Esoteric pre's on a job like this are not really going to make much difference. I did a job similar to this about 18 months ago. 6 camera shoot going to DVD. We took a split into a Mackie 8 buss direct out from channels into a Radar. Only thing used during tracking was some EQ on the bass drum and a 4 channel BSS compressor gently set on lead vocals, bass drum and snare.

Although I have never been a fan of the Mackie the end result sounded great and all concerned were happy.

Ok, so its your budget, and its you that gets pissed if it goes wrong. I still think it is worth putting up a couple of hundred bucks to guarantee your result. I appreciate you will still have your FOH mix on ADAT, but as you said it is unlikely to be very satisfactory by comparison. Esoteric mic amps are great, but without a good split and solid recording system it will be putting the cart before the horse.

Regards


Roland
Old 25th May 2003
  #11
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

my system USED to be rock solid. i added a G4port and ATTO card at the same time and since then has been known to crash IN take. so what i am doing is reverting my system back to when it was stable. the G4port is coming out with its extensions and so is the ATTO card and scsi drives and extension. im going to be heavily tweaking out the system and fine tuning it all week [well, over this week] my 80GB DMA drive will be partitioned into 2 partitions and i will do the soundcheck on one and the live show on the other. if the soundcheck works, then i will be happier about this, if it doesnt... im fucked.


ive appreciated the insight, and keep it coming. i will keep posting where im heading with this and if it works on friday. what im doing now is trying to track down 1-2 more ADAT's before friday in town to get more off the direct outs from the board. if i can find 16 more channels then i will be golden. 8 more i will manage.

the OTHER problem is that the club doesnt require full micing of the kit, i dont think i have seen overheads used there ever... and im still up in the air about what im going to use. i have been thinking of the MC012's that i have in hypercardiod. its a debate between cardiod and hypercardiod. i will have all 3 capsules so i can figure that out during soundcheck.


im going to consider the MYpre>board>direct out option as well [although if i dont run to something like the ADATs, the latency is an issue even at 256 buffer setting... direct hardware playthrough on the motu324 card does NOT work as they claim]. i think the board is big enough to split it between the 3 bands [my setup on half and the other two bands on the other half].
Old 26th May 2003
  #12
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

oh well, i met with the band last night and the singer has fucked his neck up and we are postponing the recording/videotaping until everyone is of full health.

we are considering doing it in a controlled atmosphere over the seat of the pants fully live one shot deal... i kinda would of liked the one shot deal but....
Old 27th May 2003
  #13
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Sorry, your location recording didn't work out. Recording live can be very satisfying.

I'll still gonna give you my "2 cent" for future use...

Double mic'ing is not terrible. We've done this when the FOH guy doesn't like our mics or visa versa. You may consider renting a small XFMR splitter to do the job. Your local rental place or remote recording facility comes to mind, but you DID say rental houses are a few a far between. Many remote recording operations rent out gear. You may consider calling your favorite facility and get one for the next time you get a chance to record live. FedEx can get it there overnight from almost any where.

The G4 CRM setup backstage sounds like a possibility. Why not consider setting up next to FOH? This makes it a lot easier getting sub groups and or direct outs from the FOH board, if applicable. You can always set up additional mics and stuff. Having more options is a good thing. Why not keep the G4 and ADAT XT together if you're at FOH?

Why not go 48K/16 bit all around for the reasons you mentioned? Can you add some additional inputs to your G4 rig?

The UPS (battery backup) thought is a great idea. We just installed UPSs for all our mission critical racks... Active splitters, digital recorders, etc., etc. At the moment, ten of our 37 new equipment racks have UPS backups.

Like Ben said, If you get a chance to do a live recording, consider having a backup system of any sort!!! Consider renting a 24 track recorder

Jules' idea of recording the sound check is a must. Options is a good thing. It also gives you a chance to get the mix right by playing back the tracks and stuff.
Old 27th May 2003
  #14
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Ol' Betsey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk

rental houses... now thats funny. let me know where one is in this town it strictly has to be personal stock and i need to find those persons. spending this week gathering it all.
Totally Off Topic:

Alpha, why don't you add a small hire company (empahasis on small) focused on the Film/Broadcast activity that take place in/around Asheville to your studio plans? Maybe offer a few high quality bits and pieces that are regualrly used on location recording?

Seems like an easy way to draw attention to the studio/multimedia facilities that your thinking about setting up. And your also targeting a sector that definitely has the budget to afford these things.

As and far as I can see from this side of the Atlantic, your town could use something like that.

Anyway, just an idea.

Sorry to hear about the gig being cancelled.

R.
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