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ultra-thin diaphram, fast, small diaphrgam condensers?
Old 16th January 2010
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflute ➑️
It is starting to become clear to me that these types of microphones maybe great at capturing the fast, complex transients of say a flute or high pitched percussion instruments in a natural manner.

Besides the Shure KSM-141 (ksm137), are there other ultra-thin diaphragm condensers that would be fast enough to capture high frequency material in a natural manner?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree in this regard?

Peace,
Marco
This has been an interesting thread in some ways. In others it's a pretty predictable rehash.

But can we look at the OP and answer the last question?

Marco, yes, you're barking up the wrong tree. You have used analogy and "common sense" to assign a value to a particular construction detail, but there is no evidence I can see that your assignment is correct. The good performance of the KSM141 benefits from low distortion, wide flat FR, excellent pattern control. It's a good mic, that's why it sounds good.

So you're barking up the wrong tree by looking at diaphragm thickness and a search for "speed." But since you know that the characteristics of the KSM141 make for a good recording, look for other mics with wide flat FR, similar mild presence peak, and excellent frequency response off axis. This latter is something hard for LD mics, easy for ribbons and for good SDs.

And the tech/physics/FR=Impulse folks in the thread really meant to explain things this way. It's not that you aren't hearing something, it's that you're not hearing what you think you are. So by redirecting your search you're more likely to reach your goal.

Fran
Old 16th January 2010 | Show parent
  #332
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🎧 10 years
Good post Fran!


/Peter
Old 19th January 2010 | Show parent
  #333
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Basically, slew rate is an electronic measurement indicating the quantity of electrical pressure (voltage) that can leave a given conductive system in a certain amount of time. It is not an appropriate figure when discussing acoustic issues because it has nothing to do with sound itself. The idea is that a faster slew rate allows for more accurate resolution of fine signal detail. The higher the slew rate, the less the input signal is changed due to slowly-responding electronics. Slew rate is typically a figure associated with preamps and processors, but is salient for the electronics of microphones as well. Good luck finding it though. I have never seen it quoted for microphones, only preamps.
Old 20th January 2010 | Show parent
  #334
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Good points Colin, though already mentioned in the thread. :-)


/Peter
Old 8th April 2014
  #335
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🎧 5 years
about 10 years ago, I compared many high-end large-diaphragm mics at Parsons Audio in Boston
I had a very specific 'sound' in mind, tons of 'soul' - I was looking for a flagship vocal mic for my studio
I listened to Neumanns and Gefells and Sonys and AKGs and Royers and Elecrovoices and Shures and A-Ts etc etc
I wasn't hearing what I was looking for
finally, the guy suggested I listen to a weird silver pencil-shaped thing made by a company called Earthworks
I hated the look, hated the name, was sure I'd hate the sound
and yet, there it was - perfect and soulful as I heard it in my mind - the mic for me
turns out I wasn't looking for 'color', but for 'reality' - the most soulful thing there is

now it seems to me that there must be a connection between EW's high-end frequency response and its outstanding transient and impulse response
that tiny little element just quivers and flutters, instantaneously responsive to the slightest wavelets of sound, no matter how rapid or fleeting
and with sustained HF material, either fundamental or overtone, it hovers like a hummingbird

you can argue about the physics of it, or the terminology of it - but I think with my ears, and they are confirmed small-diaphragm fans, now and forever
YMMV
good luck

ROlf in MA
Old 8th April 2014
  #336
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
about 10 years ago, I compared many high-end large-diaphragm mics at Parsons Audio in Boston
I had a very specific 'sound' in mind, tons of 'soul' - I was looking for a flagship vocal mic for my studio
I listened to Neumanns and Gefells and Sonys and AKGs and Royers and Elecrovoices and Shures and A-Ts etc etc
I wasn't hearing what I was looking for
finally, the guy suggested I listen to a weird silver pencil-shaped thing made by a company called Earthworks
I hated the look, hated the name, was sure I'd hate the sound
and yet, there it was - perfect and soulful as I heard it in my mind - the mic for me
turns out I wasn't looking for 'color', but for 'reality' - the most soulful thing there is

now it seems to me that there must be a connection between EW's high-end frequency response and its outstanding transient and impulse response
that tiny little element just quivers and flutters, instantaneously responsive to the slightest wavelets of sound, no matter how rapid or fleeting
and with sustained HF material, either fundamental or overtone, it hovers like a hummingbird

you can argue about the physics of it, or the terminology of it - but I think with my ears, and they are confirmed small-diaphragm fans, now and forever
YMMV
good luck

ROlf in MA
Old 17th October 2014 | Show parent
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop ➑️
There WILL be excessive phase distortion not visible in a frequency curve IF we talk about multiway loudspeakers with crossovers (well most crossovers anyway) and multiway capsule mic's (such as Some Sanken and AKG designs) if typical high order filters are used for the highpass and lowpass.


/Peter
Hi Peter,

is there such excessive phase distortion in the Sanken CU-44X? And if so, is this audible?
To my ears the CU-44X sounds very clear and true to the source.
Old 19th October 2014 | Show parent
  #338
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🎧 10 years
Hi Rumi!

Phase distortion may be audible or not, it all depends on how much the phase turns, in which frequency range and also what type of material you record/play back.

I don't know how they cross between the capsules in the Sanken dual capsule mic's.

You can use 1st order crossovers for freedom of phase distortion but shallow slopes may introduce other problems such as loobing and when it comes to loudspeakers you may run into excessive non linear distortion (which typically is much worse than linear distortion).

As far as I remember I've only listened to one recording made with the Sankens and that one sounded very good indeed.
Old 20th October 2014 | Show parent
  #339
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbpgsc ➑️
now it seems to me that there must be a connection between EW's high-end frequency response and its outstanding transient and impulse response
Correct.

Quote:
that tiny little element just quivers and flutters, instantaneously responsive to the slightest wavelets of sound, no matter how rapid or fleeting
and with sustained HF material, either fundamental or overtone, it hovers like a hummingbird
and makes a hell of a lot of unwanted noise in the process.

Never seen or heard of these used on any "majors" recordings.
Old 20th October 2014 | Show parent
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop ➑️
Hi Rumi!

Phase distortion may be audible or not, it all depends on how much the phase turns, in which frequency range and also what type of material you record/play back.

I don't know how they cross between the capsules in the Sanken dual capsule mic's.

You can use 1st order crossovers for freedom of phase distortion but shallow slopes may introduce other problems such as loobing and when it comes to loudspeakers you may run into excessive non linear distortion (which typically is much worse than linear distortion).

As far as I remember I've only listened to one recording made with the Sankens and that one sounded very good indeed.
Hi Peter!

Thanks alot! Phase distortion is still something a bit cloudy to me.
The Sanken CU-44X is one of the best sounding mics I know.
Old 21st October 2014 | Show parent
  #341
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbpgsc ➑️
now it seems to me that there must be a connection between EW's high-end frequency response and its outstanding transient and impulse response
Yes, and a strong connection it is. What you mention are the same thing basically, only looked upon in different ways. Linear frequency response (extended up as well as down in frequency) means good impulse response, which is the same as good transient respons.

In the physical world, any change to frequency response also changes impulse response. Any change to impulse response changes frequency response. The exception being the summed response of two filters such as the lowpass and highpass section of a multi way loudspeaker for example.

Basically, for perfect impulse response you need a bandwith of DC to infinity without any in band frequency response deviations from a perfectly flat line. DC we can have in some situations, infinity, only on paper or in the computer.
Old 21st October 2014 | Show parent
  #342
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumi ➑️
Hi Peter!

Thanks alot! Phase distortion is still something a bit cloudy to me.
The Sanken CU-44X is one of the best sounding mics I know.
Imagine two sine waves with different frequency. At a signal generators output they have a certain relation in time. Looking at a scope you will see the waveform.

If you feed this signal thru a device with phase distortion and look at the scope again, the waveform will look different due to the fact that the two sines have been subject to different amount of delay in relation to their frequency. The amplitude of both sines may be the same but their relation in time is affected. The waveform is altered since the individual sines reach their maxima at different points in time.

That is phase distortion.
Old 21st October 2014 | Show parent
  #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop ➑️
Imagine two sine waves with different frequency. At a signal generators output they have a certain relation in time. Looking at a scope you will see the waveform.

If you feed this signal thru a device with phase distortion and look at the scope again, the waveform will look different due to the fact that the two sines have been subject to different amount of delay in relation to their frequency. The amplitude of both sines may be the same but their relation in time is affected. The waveform is altered since the individual sines reach their maxima at different points in time.

That is phase distortion.
Nice, easy to understand explanation

::
Mads
Old 21st October 2014 | Show parent
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop ➑️
Imagine two sine waves with different frequency. At a signal generators output they have a certain relation in time. Looking at a scope you will see the waveform.

If you feed this signal thru a device with phase distortion and look at the scope again, the waveform will look different due to the fact that the two sines have been subject to different amount of delay in relation to their frequency. The amplitude of both sines may be the same but their relation in time is affected. The waveform is altered since the individual sines reach their maxima at different points in time.

That is phase distortion.
Thank you, Peter! Indeed a good description!

I know the theory behind it, the cloudy aspect for me is more about whether it has audible results, and when to be aware of possible problems.
As far as I know some people say that you can't hear phase (in your example, the Fourier analysis still leads to the same results, the spectral content is identical), and some say that they can even hear absolute polarity (whether the first half wave of the kick drum hit makes the loudspeaker woofer come out or go in), and some say that an all-pass filter can noticeably affect the bass of a signal, etc. Here the question is whether that is true, and if it is, what exactly is causing the effect - and I guess that has a lot to do with psychoacoustics.

Do you have any experiences with this?
Old 21st October 2014 | Show parent
  #345
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🎧 10 years
For sure what looks messy on a scope can be inaudible compared to a non phase distorted original.

When it becomes audible? No idea! :-) Ok, some idea. According to the few that have investigated this it seems like phase distortion around one cycle or slightly below is not audible. But if you insert such phase distortion several times (multi way loudspeaker for example) it may be audible.

Hearing absolute polarity switching is partly due to excessive asymmetrical nonlinearities (read second and higher order even distortion). A loudspeaker typically have gross distortion and a lot of even order components. If you have a waveform that is asymmetric this will excite the nonlinearities differently depending on how you set the absolute phase/polarity.

But there's more to it. Our ears are non linear as well and collect data on only one half of a waveform. If you play back an asymmetric sound the ear will hear it in some situations.

It seems like our ears are most sensitive to this in the 100-200Hz range so if you play back drums or sawtooth waves you may be able to hear a difference.

A sawtooth wave and flipping polarity 180deg back and forth is interesting.

People often use gut feelings deciding what is audible or not (look, the square wave is not perfect on the scope, this is a bad piece of gear) instead of studying physics and human hearing.

Diving into neural communication between the ear and brain is very interesting and it does not work anyway near the continous analog stream of information that exists outside our bodies.
Old 21st October 2014 | Show parent
  #346
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🎧 10 years
In post 221 in the thread below there are four pictures that illustrates this. What can be seen is the phase response of two different DAC's. The files are created in the computer, played thru the DAC's and recorded by the oscilloscope. One DAC has no in band phase distortion (it's phase linear) while the other have significant as viewed on the scope.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remo...l#post10418235
Old 21st October 2014
  #347
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Hi Peter,

thank you, interesting points!
I would say I do hear a polarity switch in a simple signal, when switching back and forth (not only the transition, but a different sound in the two states). But I would say I am not able to detect any phase distortion in music (unless there are cancellations because of it, of course).

I am aware that we have wandered off quite a bit. I hope this is okay for the OP!
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