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Monitoring pre outs before hitting Pro Tools
Old 25th June 2005
  #1
Lives for gear
Talking Monitoring pre outs before hitting Pro Tools

Hi folks,

Here is something I've been pondering for some time. I'm setting up to do a record and here is the chain.

Mics > splitter > multicore (analog for now) > Preamps >Pro Tools > Monitoring console.

Now as anyone who has ever used Pro Tools will know, if it decides to crash you loose output to the monitoring console. On the main gig I will have backup Radars which should allow signal through at all times but not for the first couple shows as they are only rehearsals (for me that is).

I'd like to wire the same way for all shows so the question is:

Is there a way to get from the mic pres to Pro Tools and the console at the same time. What would be the best way to split the signal without loosing quality?

Hi to all you remoters out there,

Daire

Old 26th June 2005
  #2
Lives for gear
 
espasonico's Avatar
 

A good splitter ?
Old 26th June 2005
  #3
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
A multi channel Y-cord would work just fine as long as the line inputs are bridging inputs.

We multi channel Y-cord stuff three different ways at ASL.

We have 24 channel Y-cords made out of three ELCO90s and some 24 pair snake cable. Just add the harness of your choice and you're good to go. FXLRs to two MXLRs or FXLRs to TRSs and a MXLRs if applicable -- Whatever you need.

The second type is a chassis mounted version of what I just discribed above.

The third style is using a half-normaling patchbay then just cross patch to the other device inputs.

We use all three systems. It just depends on how the portable rig or truck system is setup for each and every project.
Old 26th June 2005
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness
A multi channel Y-cord would work just fine as long as the line inputs are bridging inputs.
....

The third style is using a half-normaling patchbay then just cross patch to the other device inputs.

We use all three systems. It just depends on how the portable rig or truck system is setup for each and every project.
Steve,

I'm halfnormalled... hmmmmmmm...

My question is; if using XLR to"whatever" splits isn't more reliable.

I'm currently using Whirlwind PB's and have been very happy with em'.

I've picked up 4 - 48 point ADC 1/4" half normal w-wrap PB's and I'm thinking about getting them into the racks, but even my Whirlwinds are starting to suffer from connection stress on the input 1/4".

BTW, what's any/everyone's preferred wire? Mogami? WestPenn?

I hate the thought of investing that much more for building all new fans, but hey... gotta do whatcha' gotta do.

Max
Old 26th June 2005
  #5
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Max,

It's all reliable as long as the harness or system is wired properly.

I'm not sure about the Whirlwind bays since we have been using Audio Accessories patch bays for decades. They are an excellent product and still work perfectly after tens of years being on the road.

ADC makes a good stuff. When you wrote "w-wrap PB's" did you mean wire wrap? If so, do you have a wire wrap gun? In the early days, I soldered straight onto wire wrap bays. I found these bays cheap and didn't have the bread to buy the gun so I soldered directly to them. They worked just fine for years to come.

Why do you think the Whirlwind bays started to suffer? Are they really old?

Mogami, Canare and Belden Brilliance is what we use.
Old 27th June 2005
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness
Max,

It's all reliable as long as the harness or system is wired properly.

I'm not sure about the Whirlwind bays since we have been using Audio Accessories patch bays for decades. They are an excellent product and still work perfectly after tens of years being on the road.

ADC makes a good stuff. When you wrote "w-wrap PB's" did you mean wire wrap? If so, do you have a wire wrap gun? In the early days, I soldered straight onto wire wrap bays. I found these bays cheap and didn't have the bread to buy the gun so I soldered directly to them. They worked just fine for years to come.

Why do you think the Whirlwind bays started to suffer? Are they really old?

Mogami, Canare and Belden Brilliance is what we use.
Steve,

I don't wanna steal Daire's thread... Want I should take this to a new post?

The WW patchbays are only about 5 years old. They look like they're possibly made for them by ADC. They're the modular units that you can flip the card.

Yup the newly aquired ADC's are the wirewrap type. Made in 86. I've spot tested about 1/2 of the points and they seem good. Only problem is I haven't seen my friggin' wire-wrap gun in about 20 years! I just checked Grainger online and didn't see one. Wanna' recommend a good tool supply shop?

Thanx,
Max
Old 27th June 2005
  #7
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

When I had to do this I used the small line distribution amplifiers (with the wall warts) They are 2X8

Oh, here it is:

Search for Radio Labs RU-UDA4

http://search.hp.netscape.com/hp/boo...compass.com%2F
Old 27th June 2005
  #8
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Max,

Your guess is as good as mine -- Do an online search. Do you have a part number?
We don't used wire wrap bays, but may folks believe wire wrap is better than soldering.

-----------------------

Sounds Great,

We use Radio Lab products a lot but, I do not recommend the above device for balanced XLRs. This item is unbalanced and uses phono (RCA) connectors. Furthermore, I'm not sure if I want to run my mic pres thru a device that does not improve the sound. IMO, I do not need an extra pre amp stage that does nothing to improve the sound of the source.

A plain old Y-cord will do the trick perfectly. Most line level inputs (these days) are bridging inputs so, you will not have problems like loading down the signal. We do this kind of stuff all the time. No problems or issues to speak about.
Old 27th June 2005
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness
Max,

Your guess is as good as mine -- Do an online search. Do you have a part number?
We don't used wire wrap bays, but may folks believe wire wrap is better than soldering.
http://www.okindustries.com/products/4.1.1.5.htm at $120, I think beats the ol' $35.00 manual wrappers, but $250-$375 for their battery operated gun from DigiKey is a tad steep as little I'll probably use it.

The wrap connection can't have a cold solder joint that's for sure.

Thanx,
Max
Old 27th June 2005
  #10
Gear Head
 
Shadow Hills's Avatar
 

On the back of the GAMA 8 mic pre there is a db25 connector that accesses an isolated wind of each output transformer. This could be used for your purpose. I included this function to drive meters or a summing buss. Being transformer isolated, this might be an optimal meathod for your application.

Happy Remoting
Peter Reardon
Old 27th June 2005
  #11
Lives for gear
Ok folks, thank you for your replies. The Y-cord system would appear to be very cost effective. The monitoring console could be an O2R 96 or a Venice.

The half normalled patch might also work although I've a built in fear of patch bays that are not used every day of the week. I'm going to talk to my wiring man!

Peter, you're Gama 8 looks great but I've never used one. At the moment I've got a mixture of ATI, API, GML and Focusrite and I'm happy enough. The large image on Vintageking.com is blank by the way!

So just one last thing to ask. What happens if I introduce a third element. For instance a backup recorder? The chain would be:

mic > splitter > multi > pre > Pro Tools (parallel to) Backup Recorder (parallel to)
Console

I've just spoken to my tech and we've come to the conslusion that placing the pres on stage might be the best solution, remembering that this is only for three shows. Then from the pres to the multicore to the mix room and do a three way Y-split to both recorders and the console.

Just the current thought!

Daire
Old 27th June 2005
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Jim vanBergen's Avatar
 

IMHO, the only way to insure you are getting the signal right is to use the monitor out of your main recording medium into your 2-mix console. This way you are monitoring the track from your main source, you are not skyrocketing the impedance of the line as you do with a two-way or three-way passive (hardwire) split, and it does not require an active or transformer-balanced split simply BETWEEN the truck and everyone else (as often I am taking a X-former split between monitors and FOH consoles). I think Steve said this a hundred times, and I will quote him (I hope accurately): "Get the best transformers you can afford, you may have to use them some time!" Great pearls of wisdom. Cheers-

Jim van Bergen
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