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Sennheiser to Introduce MKH 800 Twin Microphone
Old 1st September 2008
  #31
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The mkh 800, set to fig 8, seems to me to be on axis with either side of the mic pointing towards the source. Set to omni, it seems that the mic is on axis if the end of the mic is pointing towards the source. If I have it set to omni, and instead point one of the sides of the mic towards the source, I get a higher ratio of ambient sound. The other "in between" settings, seem on axis if the mic is tilted in between side and end according to whether they are closer to an omni or fig 8 polar pattern. This can be easily tested by speaking into the mic, hand held, going through the polar patterns, and tilting it.

It might be better to decide on the polar pattern before recording
than after, to be able to make make a concious decision as to whether the mic(s) will be picking up sound on or off axis.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #32
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d_fu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
The mkh 800, set to fig 8, seems to me to be on axis with either side of the mic pointing towards the source. Set to omni, it seems that the mic is on axis if the end of the mic is pointing towards the source.
On/off axis is not defined by what "seems", but by the way the diaphragm(s) point.
Whether a mic is a "side address" mic is defined by the angle/position of the diaphragm(s) in relation to the body's main axis.
This position does not change when you set the mic to omni, it's still a side-address mic...

Quote:
If I have it set to omni, and instead point one of the sides of the mic towards the source, I get a higher ratio of ambient sound.
What's wrong with that?

Quote:
The other "in between" settings, seem on axis if the mic is tilted in between side and end according to whether they are closer to an omni or fig 8 polar pattern. (...)
It might be better to decide on the polar pattern before recording
than after, to be able to make make a concious decision as to whether the mic(s) will be picking up sound on or off axis.
This doesn't make a lot of sense, methinks... The mic is not intended to be tilted. Front and back are clearly defined, on/off-axis does not change with the polar pattern.

Daniel
Old 2nd September 2008
  #33
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The other thing that folks need to remember is that to use the 800 twin, you still need to monitor both capsules. The only difference is that you don't get locked into a pattern in a multitrack situation.

Front and back in phase and equal gain makes an omni. Just the front will be cardiod. Flip phase on the back with equal gain and you have fig-8. Lower the gain and you have a hypercardiod.

Like any recording, you still need to have an idea of what kind of a sound you're looking for and how you want to approach it.

-Ben
Old 2nd September 2008
  #34
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Dfu, an MKH800 set to omni picks up the sound source much more effectively if the end is pointing at the source. Give it a try amigo and see for yourself.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #35
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John Willett's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Dfu, an MKH800 set to omni picks up the sound source much more effectively if the end is pointing at the source. Give it a try amigo and see for yourself.
Not true - *you* may prefer the sound, but it's *not* better or more effective.

End fire in omni you are picking up two cardioid mics, 90-degrees off axis, added together.

Think about it............
Old 2nd September 2008
  #36
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Try listening to a source, in omni, from the back, then the sides, then the front, without thinking too much... the difference is not subtle. It's like comparing a Burger King preamp to a Gordon. And it will only take 3 minutes of your time.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #37
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d_fu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Dfu, an MKH800 set to omni picks up the sound source much more effectively if the end is pointing at the source. Give it a try amigo and see for yourself.
That may be your personal impression, but it has nothing to do with the way the mic was designed to work. I'd never consider to point my MKH 80 at the source or tilt it in other strange ways... And please define "effectively" in this context.

Daniel
Old 3rd September 2008
  #38
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John Willett's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Try listening to a source, in omni, from the back, then the sides, then the front, without thinking too much... the difference is not subtle. It's like comparing a Burger King preamp to a Gordon. And it will only take 3 minutes of your time.
Of course it's not subtle.

THIS is the pdf of the instruction manual for the MKH 800.

Look at the omni polar diagram on page 53.

If you use the microphone as end-fire you are 90-degreed off axis. You will see that you get a flat frequency response up to 8kHz - but it's -8dB at 16kHz and -18dB 18 32kHz.

Using it end-fire you lose the top end, but get the full frequency response from reflections from the walls.

The 90-degree frequency response curve is also shown on the frequency response graph (dotted line) as it shows the response on-axis (as a side-fire) and also at 45-degrees and 90-degrees off-axis.

*You* may like using it as an end-fire in your application and your acoustics - but *please* don't suggest using it like this to others, as it is incorrect use.

The polar-patterns and frequency response curves are published so users know what the microphone is capable of and what happens off-axis so they can make their own decision.

But the mic. is designed as a side-fire.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #39
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Anyways, I like to point 4006s to the source with their XLR plugs hehhehheh
Old 3rd September 2008
  #40
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The properties of a mic can't be calculated by conceptualizing it as if it were simply a diaphragm (or pair of diaphragms) suspended in the air. The particular physical layout of the mic, and how this is obstructing the same soundfield the mic is representing, has to be taken into account. Especially so with an omnidirectional mic. In the case of the mkh800, the symmetry of any polar pattern except for fig 8 is disrupted progressively up to omni, where finally the symmetry shifts to the end of the mic.

The use of gear should not be limited to technical information (often misleading, incorrect, or incomplete) theoretical concepts (often incomplete), social convention (often misleading) or the politics of the industry (often misleading).
Old 3rd September 2008
  #41
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d_fu's Avatar
 

You are free to wash your dishes in the washing machine, if you happen to prefer it.

Apart from that, your statement is nonsense. You can be sure that Sennheiser know what they're doing. The stuff about the symmetry "finally shifting towards the end" borders on the absurd. And using microphones correctly is not a matter of social convention...

Give the mic to me, I know how to use it...


Daniel
Old 3rd September 2008
  #42
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
The properties of a mic can't be calculated by conceptualizing it as if it were simply a diaphragm (or pair of diaphragms) suspended in the air. The particular physical layout of the mic, and how this is obstructing the same soundfield the mic is representing, has to be taken into account. Especially so with an omnidirectional mic. In the case of the mkh800, the symmetry of any polar pattern except for fig 8 is disrupted progressively up to omni, where finally the symmetry shifts to the end of the mic.

The use of gear should not be limited to technical information (often misleading, incorrect, or incomplete) theoretical concepts (often incomplete), social convention (often misleading) or the politics of the industry (often misleading).
Sorry, this is nonsense. The is no "conceptualizing" at all.

The polar patterns and frequency response curves I linked to are measurements of a real microphone in an anechoic chamber so you see what really happens.

If you like a mic. with a drooping top end - fine - use it end-fire, that's your choice. But please stop spouting this nonsense.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #43
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If you want to convince me that technical info is not omni-important, than the worse argument you can make is that a 10 dB deviation from flat on a graph is not more important than what you hear...

Let's all buy that SET amp now with a damping factor of 1.2 and 2 Watts of real power and start mixing on that: the imaging and soundstage is much more real. Who cares about measurements ?

Anyways, tests with your own voice (listening realtime on headphones) are really not the way to judge the polar response of a mic !!!!

Really !!!
Old 4th September 2008
  #44
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Martin Kantola's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
Anyways, tests with your own voice (listening realtime on headphones) are really not the way to judge the polar response of a mic !!!!
Without getting into the discussion otherwise, actually think it's an excellent way to judge the polar response! It does provide you with a lot of detailed information on how the frequency response behaves as sound enters from different angles. Not saying we shouldn't use polar plots, but adding a personal experience of how a certain type of plotted response actually sounds is useful, for future reference too.

Our ears are especially sensitive to the human voice, and listening to a device made for listening to makes a lot of sense to me.

Martin
Old 4th September 2008
  #45
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Yes but not while you hear your own voice inside your head at the same time.

That was my point.

That is like judging a 20K monitoring system inside a working carwash.
Old 4th September 2008
  #46
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Martin Kantola's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
Yes but not while you hear your own voice inside your head at the same time.
This is exactly how I do it. The polarity may become an issue, but as always you have to learn how to extract any useful data from your listening. Low-latency monitoring is important too. Guess it's kind of an interactive procedure, you can make different sounds to build your opinion.

Martin
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