I get the impression from reading what he wrote that most of the mix is from the spot pairs. The main pair provides what might be called "setting". He does mention that the main pair has to be placed carefully to balance the two instruments- even if that means facing the mics towards the floor (omnis tending toward cardioid has frequency increases).
You might be interested in the example he gives here: https://routledgetextbooks.com/textb...o-examples.php

For those interested, here is his web page: http://rkrecording.com/

Just came home from recording a student auditioning for an exchange program. Mostly Neumann 143 in nos, but a couple of 183 on piano and 184 on oboe. Sound fine with only main pair, but more lifelike" with additional spots.

K

If everyone felt the same way, the world would be a lot more boring and there probably wouldn't be any need for fora like this either.
--scott

why would the world be a lot more boring? i think it'd be more exciting! i find live mixing of orchestras by far the most interesting challenge within our entire industry - and we could discuss things in the exact same fora, albeit with a different twist (combining location recording, broadcasting and live mixing).

Knutta - were they in concert formation or facing each other? How were the mics positioned? Virtually all my work now includes video, which excludes having players face each other...

Or my favourite description of a piano trio, “a violin concerto/sonata with continuo”.

I booked a venue one time to record a piano quintet. The venue manager rang me at one point saying that he’d managed to secure three more Steinways but could only get a Yamaha for the fifth, would I be ok with that? I replied that the pianist involved would be flattered to have four Steinways to choose from, no need for the Yamaha. He didn’t see the funny side of it until much later.

H

Ahahaha! Great story!

Funny story!

Sorry for not being clear, jnorman. The Hindemith clip was like a normal concert set up with oboe in front of the piano (but further apart than normal because of c-19). I meant to say that I have had no luck with Robert King´s "reverse" set up. Am doing another audition recording next week. Will try again.

K

Oh, sorry. I don't mean "if everyone felt like you" I mean that if everyone felt like every other person. I totally disagree with you about recording philosophy, but if everybody wanted everything to sound the same way, audio would be much less interesting.
--scott

ah okay - that'd indeed be very boring.

maybe i should add that i do like unamplified music and those precious, rare moments in time (aka concerts) which go un-recorded better than any of our attempts to capture the moment which not only for technical reasons, but for perceptual, logical and idealistic reasons alone are hardly possible to convey...

however, besides the cultivation of the memory, our next best attempt does include technique and imo it's better to apply more and current technique (to which many people oppose) than going by a minimalistic approach.

I think we do agree that the difficulties of making technology 'disappear' again are increasing massively but which is the challenge to which i was referring.

to each his/her own...

I think part of it is that it is currently fashionable to have a very close-in sound. Certainly not as close-in as a pop music sound, but much closer than it sounds to a typical audience. I grew up in cheap balcony seats and came to like the more distant sound in the balcony, and I want recordings to sound like that. If the customer wants it more forward, I can do that, but that's not my personal preference.

I like the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth played at breakneck speed too, to the point where the chorus can hardly keep their breath. My wife thinks I am insane, and prefers the early von Karajan. But when I first heard it in fifth grade, performed by the Honolulu Symphony, they played it crazy fast and now it's in my head that way.

The sound I am trying to emulate is probably different than the sound you are. But I like to leave the control room and go out into the loge and compare the sounds.

As far as PA goes, I don't like it... it doesn't sound right to me... but Wagner would have loved it, it would have finally given him what he wanted.
--scott

The choice is always within your hands to simply use less of it in the first place ('technology' that is...)
Once you've been seduced into the use of it...it's harder to let go of, however !

'Have tools, must use'..... Homo habilis

I'm happy to represent Australopithecus BTW....and Charles Mingus can claim the Pithecanthropus Erectus tag

Wagner would have loved smoke machines, laser lights, projections screens, immersive audio, 3D glasses, infra-sub-bass ...."more than enough doesn't exist, as a concept !!"

as a percussionist, i will not want to use my own sound experience as a reference and it's not about wanting to use all my tools at the same time (i couldn't) or the very latest gear (just for the fun of it) - my point is this:

many concert halls in the old world date back to a time when amplification was not yet available, instruments were not yet optimised for their projection/loudness to the same extent, and even the largest orchestras still had significantly smaller instrumentations and halls were shoe boxes - then the concert halls got larger, the design changed to vineyards and although their acoustic properties were calculated, the sound experience became problematic because of the 'distorted' audience arrangement and previously mentioned developments.

good news is that there is a way out - bad news is that it depends on amplification...

with smart use of modern technology, it is possible to transport a very credible image of an orchestra onto almost every seat in almost every location, including large venues normally used for conventions or rock shows but also stadiums and outoor shows - to achieve convincing results, one does however need some petty advanced gear, make best use of it (and of course a bit of experience).

those not much familiar with what can get achieved with of modern pa systems, maybe check into l'acoustics' l-isa or d&b's soundscape systems (for immersive live sound experience) but also astro spatial audio (another 3d processor) or klang:fabrik (for 3d monitoring) - since i got to know their possibilities, i'm having a hard time finding my way back to the sound of traditional systems (and regarding recordings: going back from immersive or at leat surround formats to stereo (or even mono) - ymmv.




p.s. dunno about wagner but i know that stockhausen was very interested in modern technology (i helped installing a fairly sophisticated surround system in 'his' studio in baden-baden in the early/mid-90's)