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Acoustic Bass - something I've noticed lately...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1
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Acoustic Bass - something I've noticed lately...

File this under the category of maybe it's just me, but...

The other day I was recording a jazz combo with a well-regarded acoustic bass player, and so I was doing my usual thing - mic the amp, DI, mic on the f-hole, something in/on the bridge, &c.

Back in the out-of-control room, as I was getting my sounds, the bleed of other stuff into the bass mic's was more than I'd like (of course), and I wasn't getting much tone; so I went back out to see what I could adjust to get it more to my liking.

I got my head down right next to the axe, and I'll be darned if there was much sound coming off the instrument - even right near the f-hole. Everything I was hearing - no matter where I put my head - was coming off the amp.

I feel like I've been noticing this more and more the past few years - that many (not all) acoustic bass players who are amping up are "playing less" - i.e. they're just not playing the instrument as hard since they're getting all that tone and power from the amp; and of course that results in not a lot of tone coming off the actual instrument, which means any mic's I have on the acoustic itself will be mostly drum bleed. Whatever sound I'm getting off the mic's is less "tone" and more string action - texture but not a lot of meat - even near the f-hole.

Actually, the first time I noticed it I was recording a rather famous jazz bassist who performs with a cube speaker really close to his ear. I imagine this allows for a lot of subtle, nuanced playing that you could not do if you had to pluck harder; but like an amplified guitar or electric bass, the recorded sound of the bass then becomes the sound of the amp or DI - not so much the wooden instrument itself.

I have my preferences, but I'm not trying to make any judgements here one way or the other. It just feels like a paradigm shift from when I started out; where I would rarely mic up a bass amp, and the DI only made up half the mix for me - I could usually get great tone right off the bass itself with microphones.

Is it just me?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2
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JCBigler's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I mean it makes sense.

I have a couple of up right bass player friends, one a jazz guy and one the principal bass in the symphony that I record all the time. From what I hear, it's a fairly strenuous instrument to play physically. I can understand the desire to want to play lighter and get more nuance and tone rather than just volume.

I have a very good friend who is an excellent electric guitar player and he would rather just turn up his amp and use his left hand for articulation than to be picking each note in a line.

As a saxophone player I approach it the same way. I chose my gear (mouthpiece and reed) set up to get the sound I'm looking for. I use different gear for classical playing than I do for jazz, both of which produce less sheer volume than what I played on in marching band in college, which was all about volume (ok and maybe altissimo access), and nothing about actual quality tone.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3
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Definitely not you. I'm an upright bassist and am keenly aware of what I call the Ron Carter school of bass. Loud amp, low steel strings, easy work on hands. I'm in the Eric Revis/Carlos Henriquez school, med/high strings, gut if possible, pull hard, as little amp as necessary. Different things are possible with either approach, and there are a few kinds of middle ground. Low action guys tend to play faster.

I've resisted using DI in recording studios, with varying degrees of separation. Live situations however definitely need it.

Guys just don't want to work too hard, I can't blame them. It's hard on the arm to play as hard as it takes to compete with most drummers.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #4
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🎧 10 years
If the player worked the strings as hard as they'd need to if the Bass were completely unamplified, you'd end up with perhaps better dynamic contrasts and a more 'natural' instrument sound...like a Double Bass in an orchestra for example. In that case they just double or treble the number of players, to get something of the required volume increase (not to mention the unique texture of multiple instruments playing in unison !)

However, you'd likely also get more fingerboard slapping, bleeding fingertips and other undesirable results of unamplified playing. Once you put any unamplified instrument against a drumkit, the outcome always swings in the kit's favour in terms of audibility.

You might get some degree of sway towards a more 'acoustic projection sound' on the bass if you employed only a mic feeding the amp, rather than a pickup, and abandoned the DI/transducer....but that is unlikely to meet with player approval, and opens the gate for amp feedback...you'd be needing a supercardioid ( possibly a ribbon ?) to accomplish your aim....and spill from the drums and other instrument amps would dilute efficacy anyway.

I think the DI/amp genie has been out of the bottle for a long time, and the only way for the Bass to get enough rhythmic drive to propel the band audibly (ie to 'move enough air at necessary velocity') is via a loud enough amplified sound.

You might question why a large hollow bodied instrument is even called for, when a solid carbon fibre 'glorified neck plus pickup' is all that's really necessary, to generate the required sounds ?

But....we have historical and visual illusions and appearances that need to be maintained....right . !!

Last edited by studer58; 2 weeks ago at 07:32 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #5
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It is "a solid carbon fibre 'glorified neck plus pickup'". It just looks like a double bass.

D.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot ➡️
It is "a solid carbon fibre 'glorified neck plus pickup'". It just looks like a double bass.

D.
Functionally...yes, but I was thinking more along the lines of these 'variant strains'.....

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/254536606606
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Acoustic Bass - something I've noticed lately...-thin-bass-jpg.jpg  
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7
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Yes, I know about these instruments.

Sorry to be obscure but I was making a joke.

D.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #8
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Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by loudscape ➡️
Definitely not you. I'm an upright bassist and am keenly aware of what I call the Ron Carter school of bass. Loud amp, low steel strings, easy work on hands. I'm in the Eric Revis/Carlos Henriquez school, med/high strings, gut if possible, pull hard, as little amp as necessary. Different things are possible with either approach, and there are a few kinds of middle ground. Low action guys tend to play faster.

I've resisted using DI in recording studios, with varying degrees of separation. Live situations however definitely need it.

Guys just don't want to work too hard, I can't blame them. It's hard on the arm to play as hard as it takes to compete with most drummers.
I was about mention Ron Carter - his recorded sound in the 70s was almost all direct and compression! It was a very new sound at the time and much emulated.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #9
Gear Guru
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobAnderson ➡️
(...)Is it just me?
nope, unfortunately this is pretty common these days...

something somewhat similar can get experienced amongst drummers: many of those who have been wearing in-ears have no idea about their cymbal sound anymore!

combined, the two phenomena are a major concern - i started relying mostly on the pickup and just occasionally blend in some sound from the bass mics...



p.s. i mixed ron carter last year and he was exactly one of those with a very soft touch and a rather poor amp sound...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 2 weeks ago at 12:27 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #10
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Remoteness's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Four simple words...

I feel your pain!



Quote:
Originally Posted by RobAnderson ➡️
File this under the category of maybe it's just me, but...

The other day I was recording a jazz combo with a well-regarded acoustic bass player, and so I was doing my usual thing - mic the amp, DI, mic on the f-hole, something in/on the bridge, &c.

Back in the out-of-control room, as I was getting my sounds, the bleed of other stuff into the bass mic's was more than I'd like (of course), and I wasn't getting much tone; so I went back out to see what I could adjust to get it more to my liking.

I got my head down right next to the axe, and I'll be darned if there was much sound coming off the instrument - even right near the f-hole. Everything I was hearing - no matter where I put my head - was coming off the amp.

I feel like I've been noticing this more and more the past few years - that many (not all) acoustic bass players who are amping up are "playing less" - i.e. they're just not playing the instrument as hard since they're getting all that tone and power from the amp; and of course that results in not a lot of tone coming off the actual instrument, which means any mic's I have on the acoustic itself will be mostly drum bleed. Whatever sound I'm getting off the mic's is less "tone" and more string action - texture but not a lot of meat - even near the f-hole.

Actually, the first time I noticed it I was recording a rather famous jazz bassist who performs with a cube speaker really close to his ear. I imagine this allows for a lot of subtle, nuanced playing that you could not do if you had to pluck harder; but like an amplified guitar or electric bass, the recorded sound of the bass then becomes the sound of the amp or DI - not so much the wooden instrument itself.

I have my preferences, but I'm not trying to make any judgements here one way or the other. It just feels like a paradigm shift from when I started out; where I would rarely mic up a bass amp, and the DI only made up half the mix for me - I could usually get great tone right off the bass itself with microphones.

Is it just me?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #11
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RobAnderson's Avatar
 
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I appreciate all the validation here - glad I'm not losing my mind! (or maybe I am, but at least not about this...)

Now my complaint becomes: I wish bass amps sounded better...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #12
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Uncle Russ's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
... And I wish upright bass players would forget the amp altogether.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #13
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🎧 5 years
A well made string instrument will move a surprising amount of air off the back. The poorer designed ones (IMO) use the back of the instrument like a brick wall off of which the sound bounces and goes out the F holes. Other designs move the back like a speaker; it moves like a unit. Perhaps experimenting with micing the back of the bass combined with musician placement would also allow for more acoustic bass sound and isolation from the drums and the bass cabinet.

Just kicking the can here...
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #14
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Russ ➡️
... And I wish upright bass players would forget the amp altogether.
From an engineer's perspective I totally agree with you, but in the context of modern jazz, it's just not realistic. Most of the venues I work in or go to listen aren't exactly glorious halls designed for nice acoustics or projection, the "stage" is cramped, and the group is usually playing over the din of a bar crowd. On top of that, some of the jazz drummers I've seen lately hit as hard as any rock drummer I've recorded! It's just a bad scenario for an acoustic instrument.

I do think a lot of bass players could do much better with their live rigs though. I've posted a fair amount about a jazz series I recorded in 2019, probably had 40 different players and rigs over the year. Most of the time during sound check, I'd put my head right by the f-hole and could hardly hear any of the upright over the drums - only the most aggressive players were able to project enough acoustic sound to make even an H-Clamp with hypercardioid mounted on the body of any use. For every one of those players there were 2 or 3 amp jockeys riding that thing hard, and the rest were somewhere in the middle. The amp bleed into piano mics bothered me more than anything...

If I were a bass player, I'd get an Ehrlund EAP and spend an entire day with my best amp, moving the EAP all over the instrument an inch at a time until I got the closest thing to my natural tone from the amp. Combined with a high quality amp / cab, I think that would be a marked improvement over most player's live sound with a typical pickup and amp or DI. The EAP has a very interesting sound that lies somewhere between a mic and a regular pickup, and it made a huge difference to my live recordings (though we never had time to run it into a player's amp, just direct while they ran their normal rigs).
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty ➡️
A well made string instrument will move a surprising amount of air off the back. The poorer designed ones (IMO) use the back of the instrument like a brick wall off of which the sound bounces and goes out the F holes. Other designs move the back like a speaker; it moves like a unit. Perhaps experimenting with micing the back of the bass combined with musician placement would also allow for more acoustic bass sound and isolation from the drums and the bass cabinet.

Just kicking the can here...
That's a really interesting piece of information - I never thought to listen to the back, much less mic it.

My initial thought is that it could be rather challenging to get a mic back there without interfering with the player, but I am already formulating a few ideas...

Of course, I imagine you miss the string articulation noise, but there are other ways of getting that.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by over-man ➡️
From an engineer's perspective I totally agree with you, but in the context of modern jazz, it's just not realistic. Most of the venues I work in or go to listen aren't exactly glorious halls designed for nice acoustics or projection, the "stage" is cramped, and the group is usually playing over the din of a bar crowd. On top of that, some of the jazz drummers I've seen lately hit as hard as any rock drummer I've recorded! It's just a bad scenario for an acoustic instrument.

I do think a lot of bass players could do much better with their live rigs though. I've posted a fair amount about a jazz series I recorded in 2019, probably had 40 different players and rigs over the year. Most of the time during sound check, I'd put my head right by the f-hole and could hardly hear any of the upright over the drums - only the most aggressive players were able to project enough acoustic sound to make even an H-Clamp with hypercardioid mounted on the body of any use. For every one of those players there were 2 or 3 amp jockeys riding that thing hard, and the rest were somewhere in the middle. The amp bleed into piano mics bothered me more than anything...

If I were a bass player, I'd get an Ehrlund EAP and spend an entire day with my best amp, moving the EAP all over the instrument an inch at a time until I got the closest thing to my natural tone from the amp. Combined with a high quality amp / cab, I think that would be a marked improvement over most player's live sound with a typical pickup and amp or DI. The EAP has a very interesting sound that lies somewhere between a mic and a regular pickup, and it made a huge difference to my live recordings (though we never had time to run it into a player's amp, just direct while they ran their normal rigs).
Agreed - with modern stage levels, an unamplified acoustic instrument doesn't stand a chance.

Also agreed on bass amp bleed into piano - it nearly ruined a recording I did last year, which was a single live set and without a sound check. The piano was nothing to write home about, and the low end from the bass amp was very bad. Every attempt to roll it out of the piano mic's made the piano sound even worse. It took a lot of work to make it sound like anything...
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #17
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobAnderson ➡️
That's a really interesting piece of information - I never thought to listen to the back, much less mic it.

My initial thought is that it could be rather challenging to get a mic back there without interfering with the player, but I am already formulating a few ideas...

Of course, I imagine you miss the string articulation noise, but there are other ways of getting that.
I've never tried it myself but the information about how the back contributes to the sound comes from a luthier I know. It occurred to me after reading your OP. Now I'm kind of curious if it helps. I may have to see if I can find an opportunity to try it. Maybe a front and a back mic...
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #18
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty ➡️
I've never tried it myself but the information about how the back contributes to the sound comes from a luthier I know. It occurred to me after reading your OP. Now I'm kind of curious if it helps. I may have to see if I can find an opportunity to try it. Maybe a front and a back mic...
That's perhaps a theoretical ideal, looking at the instrument in isolation from the player. If the player's body leans against the back of the instrument to any great degree, damping the vibrations, you could expect a significant reduction of the acoustic output from that plane surface....similar to a classical guitarist's body perhaps ?

It's also likely to be out of phase with the wave emanating from the front of the instrument...so be prepared to use polarity reversal (similar to top/bottom snare miking), if using mics front and back
Old 2 weeks ago
  #19
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🎧 15 years
The bassist I've recorded in the past few years have been mostly improv players, who play in a wide variety of often no-PA venues, so they can dig in if they want to. Good for me. They also have very responsive instruments, that can make a lot of sound on their own. I too generally dislike the sound of the amps all these bassists have--I mic them to be cooperative but almost never use that track in the mix. The DI can be very helpful (if not vital) if the setup is crowded, and even more so if the bassist has cranked their amp up so they can hear themselves over a nearby drummer. Also helpful has been a DPA 4099 with the bass clip. Not all basses sound great on it but a few have and they've been helpful with players who want to be able to move around the stage a bit.

Last edited by philper; 2 weeks ago at 06:53 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #20
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🎧 5 years
I worked with an excellent classical bassist who could turn his hand to any music.
Tried a DPA 4060 on his ancient upright with poor result.
A fig 8 was superior, 'praps the 4060 could go on the back ?

Roger
Old 2 weeks ago
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
This thread is really interesting to me as an upright bass player. I'm definitely guilty of most of my sound coming from the amp, although with the venues Im at its really the only option. I will say, that I go straight from a headway EDB-1 into my amps power amp section to avoid bass guitar style preamp tone shaping.

I've never heard of the Ehrlund EAP. I have a David Gage realist that has been okay, but is getting really long in the tooth. I was planning to replace it with another Realist in the next few weeks, but now I'm intrigued. I never got along well with K&K or Fishman pickups. Is the Ehrlund EAP the new be all and end all upright bass pickup in sound engineers opinions?
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 ➡️
I worked with an excellent classical bassist who could turn his hand to any music.
Tried a DPA 4060 on his ancient upright with poor result.
A fig 8 was superior, 'praps the 4060 could go on the back ?

Roger
That's exactly what I was thinking, Roger.

I've often resorted to a supercard or fig-8 by the f-hole for maximum rejection of the drums (including your favourite: the mkh30, though more often a 414 due to the utility of a switchable pattern; lately I've been partial to the colour of an old Senny 441 in that spot, though the quality of the bleed is not so great);

but I could squeeze a 4060 just about anywhere - including on the bass or bassist him/herself. I'm thinking anything that needs to go on a stand would never fly back there - not enough room without it getting bumped, and it would likely interfere too much with the musician.

I will say I've gotten great results on a 4060 in the bridge on those rare occasions I could get away with an omni like that.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clbraddock ➡️
This thread is really interesting to me as an upright bass player. I'm definitely guilty of most of my sound coming from the amp, although with the venues Im at its really the only option. I will say, that I go straight from a headway EDB-1 into my amps power amp section to avoid bass guitar style preamp tone shaping.

I've never heard of the Ehrlund EAP. I have a David Gage realist that has been okay, but is getting really long in the tooth. I was planning to replace it with another Realist in the next few weeks, but now I'm intrigued. I never got along well with K&K or Fishman pickups. Is the Ehrlund EAP the new be all and end all upright bass pickup in sound engineers opinions?
It looks like the EAP needs "adhesive putty" to attach. That's fine for a personal instrument, but I'd be really reluctant to ever approach a bassist with that idea as an engineer.

I do have a suction cup contact transducer, which I have never tried. Maybe it's time to give it a shot...

I've always been a fan of the Realist pickups when they show up - still the best sounding bass pickup I've encountered.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #24
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I've used the EAP for nearly a decade, is that right? geez. The putty is completely harmless. The less you use the better, just three tiny little balls in each corner of the triangle. Finding the locations to stick it can take some time. At least with my bass which I've rigged up to be light and loud, the sweet spot can change depending on the room, stage floor resonance, etc. Usually it's somewhere between the E bridge foot and the lower end of the F hole. Some sort of phase switch and sweepable HPF is a must in every live/amp situation IMO.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #25
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clbraddock ➡️
Is the Ehrlund EAP the new be all and end all upright bass pickup in sound engineers opinions?
For me it is - haven't heard anything that comes close to getting as natural a sound in a live context against loud instruments. The isolation is spectacular and you can use it to actually hear the notes someone is playing, even when the drummer is wailing during a fast walking section.

I've posted this a bunch in other threads but here's the EAP on Eric Revis live: https://vimeo.com/437438469

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobAnderson ➡️
It looks like the EAP needs "adhesive putty" to attach. That's fine for a personal instrument, but I'd be really reluctant to ever approach a bassist with that idea as an engineer.
You only need 3 tiny dots of putty, maybe the size of a pencil eraser, and I never had any issues with the putty leaving any residue or a bass player not wanting me to attach it. Mostly they were impressed that I seemed obsessed with capturing a quality bass tone live. If you dig into the bass player's forums you'll find some discussion of which putty, or which putty blend, *sounds* best, so if you thought cable discussions were crazy, there's that. All that being said, no, I wouldn't put it on a priceless instrument, but then again most players aren't bringing prized uprights to live jazz gigs.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #26
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
That's perhaps a theoretical ideal, looking at the instrument in isolation from the player. If the player's body leans against the back of the instrument to any great degree, damping the vibrations, you could expect a significant reduction of the acoustic output from that plane surface....similar to a classical guitarist's body perhaps ?

It's also likely to be out of phase with the wave emanating from the front of the instrument...so be prepared to use polarity reversal (similar to top/bottom snare miking), if using mics front and back
studer, I don't think the player will be dampening the back much, especially if they stand. Even when sitting the back will be mostly free. It's definitely not like a classical guitar. My thought is, perhaps, it could add some extra body to the sound if not enough is being picked up from the front.

I hadn't thought about the back of the bass being out of phase with the front but that is most likely true. The vibration from the top of the bass travels down the sound post - when the top vibrates "in" that would mean a vibration "out" on the back and vice versa.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #27
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I see it too as an engineer capturing combo performances. There's probably a sweet spot with player attack that is still insufficient to rise above drum bleed.

As an electric bassist, I can relate to a tangential version of the same thing, those instruments don't make much sound acoustically, and many deliver better fuller more dynamic tones with a restrained baseline (pun) approach. A louder amp with a dynamically controlled attack tends to sound better in many cases. Analogous to Bing Crosby's flat dynamic delivery being more easily translated to radio and record with early technology.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #28
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🎧 5 years
I had the opportunity to work with the late Andre St. James, a wonderful bass player who worked in the Pacific NW. I had many conversations with him in the sidelines at gigs and during sound checks about this—he was always searching for his own answer to mic'ing techniques that blended the acoustic sound with DI signal to make the instrument woody, project its full frequency response and ultimately sound "acoustic", even when it was amplified. His manner of playing was more on the side of 'digging into the instrument' which I think sounded fantastic. But the live recorded sound still is a blend of the amp and acoustic sound. In the end Andre was using a fig-8 ribbon (I forget the model, but it was made for bassists, sort of wedged in at the bridge) after years of working with a Schoeps mk41.

When I have worked with unamplified bassists like Edgar Meyer, the true tone of the instrument can be heard and its really a treat to experience—but yeah, how can that really compete with a loud drummer?

Other bassists like Mark Dresser really do require that amplified tone to make the sound of their instruments work. IIRC, he had 3 signals coming out of the bass that I could blend and process in parallel. It was fun working with him to get a live sound he was happy with and a recording I could feel good about.

It is rough though, when you need an acoustic bass sound, but can't pull that tone in the recording.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #29
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Now that we have tools like Rx8 de-bleed, I mean to experiment more with secondary bleed capture cancellation mics, not that it will do anything to change player dynamics.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #30
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🎧 5 years
I just remembered, the mic I was referring to is called the Troll:
http://trollmicrophone.com/blog/
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