The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
What do others here consider the best small cardioid mics for flying in a church?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
What do others here consider the best small cardioid mics for flying in a church?

A very good friend is the organist at a church near here.

They are doing remote church services and want to suspend a pair of "very small microphones" to pickup the organ. They do not want anything too big as they want them as "inconspicuous as possible". I was thinking a pair of the RODE NT-5s or the Line Audio OM-1s. I guess they could also get by with the 4060s from DPA. These will be used ONLY for the broadcast and recording and will NOT be used for the PA system. They will be suspended by a very small diameter wire stretched wall to wall.

Others may have different thoughts.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions and or feedback!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2
Lives for gear
I picked up a pair of Schoeps CMC 1L [Lemo] amps last year and absolutely love them! The microphone cables that ship with them are also unobtrusive. If they fit the budget, I wouldn't likely even consider another option.

Deciding which specific capsules to put with them for a specific room and set of objectives is another issue to work out, of course.


Best regards,

Ray H.

DISCLAIMER: I pretty much love Schoeps. They are my favorite microphone brand.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #3
Gear Guru
 
🎧 5 years
if schoeps are too expensive, maybe you want to consider neumann km183/184 or then line audio, b9 audio, beyerdynamic, lewitt, akg, mbho, audio technica, sennheiser, shure etc. - (almost too) many choices!

i can recommend using a 2.1 system for picking up the organ with (somewhat) directional mics for the stereo main mics and a blm (or an omni used as a blm) for .1 mic...



[EDIT] ...but since we're in 2021, the ecological footprint matters so pls do not buy gear which needs to get sent around the globe before it arrives at your doorstep!

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 2 weeks ago at 08:07 PM.. Reason: edited for a specific reason (see above)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #4
Gear Guru
AKG 480.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #5
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Tom, in your bold-typeface opening line, you mention small cardioid....but I think you mean small diameter ? You go on to list the OM-1, which is omni....and an Omni pair is going to get you better bass extension than a typical cardioid.

You don't mention budget...but if it's tight, the Line Audio mics will be fine...otherwise go for Schoeps at the opposite end of the price spectrum.

An Omni pair will tend to record more traffic rumble than a cardioid pair, so not sure if that's a factor to consider ? The Rode NT5 (with Omni capsules) or sE Electronics sE8 Omni pair are both worthy alternatives.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #6
Lives for gear
 
jnorman's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Km183s
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #7
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
Tom, in your bold-typeface opening line, you mention small cardioid....but I think you mean small diameter ? You go on to list the OM-1, which is omni....and an Omni pair is going to get you better bass extension than a typical cardioid.

You don't mention budget...but if it's tight, the Line Audio mics will be fine...otherwise go for Schoeps at the opposite end of the price spectrum.

An Omni pair will tend to record more traffic rumble than a cardioid pair, so not sure if that's a factor to consider ? The Rode NT5 (with Omni capsules) or sE Electronics sE8 Omni pair are both worthy alternatives.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Yes small diameter, small physical dimensions so as not be be too noticeable from the congregation. I am trying to help this person and he is trying to suggest things to the church. I would prefer Omni mics for their extended low frequency response. The church is the typical "shoe box" design and has a lovely reverb when empty with a very acceptable reverb when full. Trying to decide what is the best mics for the job. Thanks again!
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #8
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
if schoeps are too expensive, maybe you want to consider neumann km183/184 or then line audio, b9 audio, beyerdynamic, lewitt, akg, mbho, audio technica, sennheiser, shure etc. - (almost too) many choices!

i can recommend using a 2.1 system for picking up the organ with (somewhat) directional mics for the stereo main mics and a blm (or an omni used as a blm) for .1 mic...



[EDIT] ...but since we're in 2021, the ecological footprint matters so pls do not buy gear which needs to get sent around the globe before it arrives at your doorstep!
Thanks for your reply. I agree with your suggestion but the church does not have a full time audio engineer doing their broadcast audio and I am afraid that using an additional mic that has to be "blended" may in fact make the situation even more difficult than just bringing up two mics. I will suggest that to my friend as an alternative. Thanks again for the suggestion.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #9
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
I read something recently that said some young adults aren't even buying TVs anymore, much less audio systems, because they watch everything on their tablets or phones.

IDK, how much should a church spend on mics if this is where things now stand?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #10
Gear Maniac
I don't know, 2manyrocks. This may be tangential, but am I the only one who has noticed, harsh sounding mics sound particularly intolerable on phones, tablets and laptops? Is it the impression of anyone else that an audio 'system' of reasonable quality draws less attention to the poorly recorded audio?

Perhaps it's just self-soothing, but I've consoled myself for a while with the hypothesis that the worse the reproduction becomes, the more important our job will be.

It's probably self soothing.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #11
Gear Maniac
Follow up: I will add that on balance, I suspect phones & tablets seem to deprecate how critical proper imaging is, and emphasize how critical is the tonality. Agree / disagree?
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks ➡️
I read something recently that said some young adults aren't even buying TVs anymore, much less audio systems, because they watch everything on their tablets or phones.

IDK, how much should a church spend on mics if this is where things now stand?
rocks^2many - that seems a challenge across the board.

I'm often listening via the AirPods Pro - and I really hate having anything in my ears. Hopefully associated sound quality and comfort will improve dramatically over time.

Church performance recordings may be kept and enjoyed [e.g., by participants] for decades. So I would vote for quality recordings as much as can be reasonably supported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klimermonk ➡️
Follow up: I will add that on balance, I suspect phones & tablets seem to deprecate how critical proper imaging is, and emphasize how critical is the tonality. Agree / disagree?
I think that has been addressed to some extent by tech in the AirPods Pro. I expect to see continued improvements to imaging going forward. But I'm still afraid of widths. [1]


Ray H.

[1] Steven Wright
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #13
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks ➡️
I read something recently that said some young adults aren't even buying TVs anymore, much less audio systems, because they watch everything on their tablets or phones.

IDK, how much should a church spend on mics if this is where things now stand?
Garbage in garbage out is what I have always been taught when doing audio for broadcast.

As to TV sales, if you look at COSTCO or Best Buys sales figures there seem to be a lot of 4K TVs sets being sold so maybe everyone is using tablets or I-phones for watching. The person I talked to at COSTCO said they cannot keep 4 K TVs in stock especially before the Superbowl or the World Series. As to audio these church broadcasts are mostly going up on YouTube and people are watching them in their homes on their computers or smart TVs. They are also being archived for viewing later. I think it is worth doing it correctly for the best quality and for the archives. I see your point but...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #14
Lives for gear
 
mpdonahue's Avatar
Tom,
Given that it seems like they are not looking to spend a lot of money, and are looking for something low profile, I'd steer them to the Rode NT6 with NT45O omni capsules. It is a poor mans Collette cable and will sound fine if positioned reasonably well. If they can tolerate the mic hanging directly, then an NT55 with the omni capsule will save you a couple of bucks.
THe KM183 is another good option for a couple of bucks more.
As always, YMMV
All the best,
Mark
Old 2 weeks ago
  #15
Lives for gear
 
hbphotoav's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Seems like you could order in a few of the more compelling suggestions above, and plan an afternoon with the organist and a 2-track recorder (or a multitrack rig for some "all-at-once" tests). I'd certainly not rule out the (nearly invisible) DPA4060s. My 4061s see as much use as any other pair in my recording kit... and, for $1K, i think they check a lot of boxes.

FWIW, the church I serve (occasionally) downtown uses a pair of 451s in a NOS arrangement, with the pair permanently rigged to the front wall of the balcony, about 70' from the sanctuary front-wall organ installation, which translates into about halfway back the room. I have been surprised how good it sounds, 15' off the floor and 60' below the roof (1200-seat room, 100-seat choir on the platform). I prefer my Gefell M296 in AB about between 20' and 40' out, in the center aisle, 16' high... but that is unsightly in the telegenic category, so 451s it is!

Cheers.

HB
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe ➡️
Garbage in garbage out is what I have always been taught when doing audio for broadcast.

As to TV sales, if you look at COSTCO or Best Buys sales figures there seem to be a lot of 4K TVs sets being sold so maybe everyone is using tablets or I-phones for watching. The person I talked to at COSTCO said they cannot keep 4 K TVs in stock especially before the Superbowl or the World Series. As to audio these church broadcasts are mostly going up on YouTube and people are watching them in their homes on their computers or smart TVs. They are also being archived for viewing later. I think it is worth doing it correctly for the best quality and for the archives. I see your point but...
People that buy 4k TVs are also likely buying TV sound bars. Bluetooth wireless earbuds appear to be popular, too, FWIW. Organ music might really push those systems.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
A weekly church service with an organ playing is more likely to be considered in the ‘archival recording’ camp than a priceless artistic performance...but since the mics we’re discussing are capable of documenting the playing at a high quality level, why not treat each event to the best possible recording standard (within budget constraints) ? A sensible low bass frequency curtailment will prevent cheap plastic speaker boxes and laptops from rattling annoyingly...that’s one concession I’d make, not everything needs to be broadcast DC to daylight bandwidth !
Old 2 weeks ago
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
elpillo's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
If the mics are going to stay hung, collecting dust, for people to listen on their phones/laptops/TVs, I'd go for OM1's (or CM4's). They're black, small, inexpensive and most likely will do a decent job if placed right.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe ➡️
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Yes small diameter, small physical dimensions so as not be be too noticeable from the congregation. I am trying to help this person and he is trying to suggest things to the church. I would prefer Omni mics for their extended low frequency response. The church is the typical "shoe box" design and has a lovely reverb when empty with a very acceptable reverb when full. Trying to decide what is the best mics for the job. Thanks again!
The thing about omnis is that it's a lot easier to make a good omni capsule than it is to make a good cardioid capsule, so there are a lot of inexpensive omnis out there that do a beautiful job. Personally I'd suggest something like the Oktava 012 or the A-T 4049, but there are plenty of others out there. You'll find the differences between omnis is a lot less than the differences between cardioids.

The Oktava 012 is a little beamy at high frequencies which I would consider to be an advantage in the application, but not as beamy as it would be if you added a ball. If you don't mind what it does to the sight lines, I would definitely use balls.
--scott
Old 2 weeks ago
  #20
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe ➡️
A very good friend is the organist at a church near here.

They are doing remote church services and want to suspend a pair of "very small microphones" to pickup the organ. They do not want anything too big as they want them as "inconspicuous as possible". I was thinking a pair of the RODE NT-5s or the Line Audio OM-1s. I guess they could also get by with the 4060s from DPA. These will be used ONLY for the broadcast and recording and will NOT be used for the PA system. They will be suspended by a very small diameter wire stretched wall to wall.

Others may have different thoughts.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions and or feedback!
Somehow I think in the back of my mind that having a very small diameter wire stretched wall to wall isn't inconspicuous. Maybe inconspicuous as possible in the relative scheme of things. I guess they would not be noticed by most people, but aren't there some other options?
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #21
Lives for gear
 
hbphotoav's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks ➡️
Somehow I think in the back of my mind that having a very small diameter wire stretched wall to wall isn't inconspicuous. Maybe inconspicuous as possible in the relative scheme of things. I guess they would not be noticed by most people, but aren't there some other options?
Whatever pair is hung discretely... DPA4011, KM18x, CM3, MKH, DPA4060... it will be noticed by some folks immediately, and will soon be forgotten... until someone "new" notices, and then forgotten again... until...

So, do it discretely (it will always be visible in a "wide" video shot from the back), do it to whatever code standard is applicable, and move on down the road.

Been there, done that, since the '70s.

One old guy's opinion.

HB
Old 2 weeks ago
  #22
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
More unobtrusive might be a pair of thin diameter cables, vertical-dropped from the ceiling. After that you have additional options for keeping them in place and angle orienting them as necessary: a spacer bar, or individual mic 'aimers'....eg https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ne_Hanger.html

If there's any aircon in the building it's possible that the mics could move slightly in the airflow, and you may also want to move the mic pair to give coverage of a choir or solo performer...to accomplish this you'll need thin nylon fishing tie lines fixed diagonally along the side walls, to provide anti-sway tension.

These are very standard procedures for suspending mics, and in practice provide the least visible and secure methods for achieving this. Depending upon the natural and artificial lighting involved, a shiny or matte finish on the metal parts may catch the light more or less, so run your own 'visibility experiments': matte black can often draw MORE attention in such cases.

Before committing to any suspension method, do all your mic placement trials for best audio performance using a pair of mic stands (or single stand with spacer bar)

In my experience a 70 cm nickel-finish bar (plus nylon fishing line) gives the best combination of stability and invisibility for a ceiling-suspended pair.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #23
Gear Maniac
I second Mark Donahue's suggestion about NT45-O on NT6 bodies.
Those capsules have really remarkable reach and smooth clarity, without metallic overtones. When put up against Schoeps, even my blue-dot M221b + M934c's, I've been startled by how they delivered.

I've bought them second hand on eBay for something like $150.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #24
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️
More unobtrusive might be a pair of thin diameter cables, vertical-dropped from the ceiling. After that you have additional options for keeping them in place and angle orienting them as necessary: a spacer bar, or individual mic 'aimers'....eg https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ne_Hanger.html

If there's any aircon in the building it's possible that the mics could move slightly in the airflow, and you may also want to move the mic pair to give coverage of a choir or solo performer...to accomplish this you'll need thin nylon fishing tie lines fixed diagonally along the side walls, to provide anti-sway tension.

These are very standard procedures for suspending mics, and in practice provide the least visible and secure methods for achieving this. Depending upon the natural and artificial lighting involved, a shiny or matte finish on the metal parts may catch the light more or less, so run your own 'visibility experiments': matte black can often draw MORE attention in such cases.

Before committing to any suspension method, do all your mic placement trials for best audio performance using a pair of mic stands (or single stand with spacer bar)

In my experience a 70 cm nickel-finish bar (plus nylon fishing line) gives the best combination of stability and invisibility for a ceiling-suspended pair.

Exactly what I was thinking and planning to do. Thanks for confirming my thoughts. EVERYONE BE SAFE AND STAY HEALTHY!
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #25
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav ➡️
Whatever pair is hung discretely... DPA4011, KM18x, CM3, MKH, DPA4060... it will be noticed by some folks immediately, and will soon be forgotten... until someone "new" notices, and then forgotten again... until...

So, do it discretely (it will always be visible in a "wide" video shot from the back), do it to whatever code standard is applicable, and move on down the road.

Been there, done that, since the '70s.

One old guy's opinion.

HB
With all the typical "church stuff" around not sure why anyone would get upset at some unobtrusive hanging mics. They already have two giant TV screens on both side walls that people seem to have assimilated quite nicely and don't bother anyone. I think sometimes people get upset before they even know what the setup will look like. The sound contractor spec'd two LDC mics "hidden" behind the altar which I don't think would work. (The altar is moveable around the front of the church). Trying to give my good friend some alternatives. Thanks for your input.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #26
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpdonahue ➡️
Tom,
Given that it seems like they are not looking to spend a lot of money, and are looking for something low profile, I'd steer them to the Rode NT6 with NT45O omni capsules. It is a poor mans Collette cable and will sound fine if positioned reasonably well. If they can tolerate the mic hanging directly, then an NT55 with the omni capsule will save you a couple of bucks.
THe KM183 is another good option for a couple of bucks more.
As always, YMMV
All the best,
Mark

They look great spec wise and I will certainly give them a listen. Thanks for your valuable input.
Old 1 week ago
  #27
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Here's a somewhat 'audience distance' pic of a pair of hung Omni mics with a shiny nickel-finish spacer bar. The nylon fishing lines holding them slightly backwards, towards the audience....visible or not ? It's a good all-rounder pickup for anything happening on stage, including the organ behind
Attached Thumbnails
What do others here consider the best small cardioid mics for flying in a church?-image.jpg  
Old 1 week ago
  #28
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
They just blend in with the shiny organ pipes.

Nice pic, BTW.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #29
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks ➡️
They just blend in with the shiny organ pipes.

Nice pic, BTW.
Yes indeed...camouflaged in plain sight !

Matte black however, the de rigeur theatre finish, would stand out like dog's balls...in this situation at least

The mic clips on each end of the bar are black, the KM183's nickel finished

This is largely daylight of course, with a little ceiling spots support...but I think even when the high-above stage spots are blazing away, it's not any more attention-grabbing

It's only recording folk like ourselves who would notice anyway, most likely...?
Old 1 week ago
  #30
Lives for gear
 
fred2bern's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Schoeps with KC10 cables. Sennheiser and Neumann have also the same kind of system: it is really small and you can choose an "open" or "Wide cardio" capsule if one of these is the best compromise in your church. Very small, I think you are in the "inconspicuous as possible" demand...
Fred.
Attached Thumbnails
What do others here consider the best small cardioid mics for flying in a church?-20201218_083633.jpg  
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 88 views: 56430
Avatar for didier.brest
didier.brest 2nd July 2015
replies: 471 views: 139089
Avatar for RobAnderson
RobAnderson 9th November 2010
replies: 4 views: 3537
Avatar for DaveyJones
DaveyJones 29th April 2015
replies: 100 views: 4047
Avatar for studer58
studer58 1 week ago
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump