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using two mono Josephson C700S mics to record stereo
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
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surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
using two mono Josephson C700S mics to record stereo

Fun but expensive remote session recording plan: two Josephson C700S microphones, with each mic’s channels summed to mono into Sound Device Scorpio at 24/192. Spaced mics apart left and right, placed in room with musicians, hit record, leave room, come back later. Deliver stereo mix from the two mono mics on USB stick, sanitize microphones and recorder, pack gear. Escape to record live performances another time. Doesn’t cost anything after initial gear purchase. Could use iso tracks to mix 8.1 surround in post for extra work in addition to the stereo mix, from all mic channels saved on Scorpio.
Question: without considering the $ cost of buying two Josephson C700S microphones and Scorpio, would there be phase anomalies or such from summing each mic's channels to mono, then recording spaced pair as stereo? Maybe this is a question for David Josephson, about using his multi diaphragm mic without separating the channels.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
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kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
Fun but expensive remote session recording plan: two Josephson C700S microphones, with each mic’s channels summed to mono into Sound Device Scorpio at 24/192. Spaced mics apart left and right, placed in room with musicians, hit record, leave room, come back later. Deliver stereo mix from the two mono mics on USB stick, sanitize microphones and recorder, pack gear. Escape to record live performances another time. Doesn’t cost anything after initial gear purchase. Could use iso tracks to mix 8.1 surround in post for extra work in addition to the stereo mix, from all mic channels saved on Scorpio.
Question: without considering the $ cost of buying two Josephson C700S microphones and Scorpio, would there be phase anomalies or such from summing each mic's channels to mono, then recording spaced pair as stereo? Maybe this is a question for David Josephson, about using his multi diaphragm mic without separating the channels.
It should be just like any other mike pair... the farther you separate them, the more phase anomalies you will have when you sum them.

If they are right next to one another like an ORTF pair, summing is pretty good. If they are thirty feet apart like for a Mercury triad, it will be just awful (which is why Mercury issued stereo and mono versions of their classical records).

By "summing everything to mono" I assume you mean you're setting them up as omnis?
--scott
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
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lukedamrosch's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
Fun but expensive remote session recording plan
With this philosophy in mind, perhaps a pair of Microtech Gefell UM 930 Twins as backups for the Josephsons?
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #4
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surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
thank you very much. Yes, idea is to sum each mic outputs to mono (3 to 1), then space the mic stands as if recording with 2 omnis, with the benefit of the C700S surround pickup. Much appreciate your thought about spacing distance. Perhaps 30 cm would be safer than 7 ft
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #5
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surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yes, or Sennheiser MKH 800 TWINs.
I talked to David Josephson at an AES show years ago, and he mentioned maybe using one C700S with a pair of C617SET. It is tough to find a room/space good enough though. Thus, maybe just close spacing of two C700S mics, each summed to mono for quick recording work. I am old and lazy, and don't use computers for mixing post.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
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nobtwiddler's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
2 x C700s

Amongst other things, for the last few years, I've been recording a lot of solo singer songwriter sessions.
And I'm really into the one mic capture.
So I purchased a C700s.
It's been wonderful.

Since that time, (up until Covid) I've also been working with quite a few acoustic duets, usually acoustic guitar, and vocals by each performer.

And because of this, I have been seriously considering the purchase of a second C700s.

Gonna make my decision very soon.......
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #7
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surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobtwiddler ➡️
Amongst other things, for the last few years, I've been recording a lot of solo singer songwriter sessions.
And I'm really into the one mic capture.
So I purchased a C700s.
It's been wonderful.

Since that time, (up until Covid) I've also been working with quite a few acoustic duets, usually acoustic guitar, and vocals by each performer.

And because of this, I have been seriously considering the purchase of a second C700s.

Gonna make my decision very soon.......
Wow, thank you. I have always respected your posts on Gearslutz. Glad to get the good news about C700S. Keep rockin man. Don't know if you would be using two at once, but very impressive to unpack them at a session. No further questions about good gear being used.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #8
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
Question: without considering the $ cost of buying two Josephson C700S microphones and Scorpio, would there be phase anomalies or such from summing each mic's channels to mono, then recording spaced pair as stereo? Maybe this is a question for David Josephson, about using his multi diaphragm mic without separating the channels.
Yeah that's a weird plan-

The W+X will give you forward facing cardioid. Adding the Y into mono will give a weird pattern- it would be like a tight cardioid leaning to the positive lobe of the Y capsule. The Y capsule is intended to add stereo. So you could do W+X summed to one channel and Y to the other to decode MS, but you have to record all three capsules of each mic to use Rode/Surroundzone/harpex to decode it to surround.

Summing All 3 would give the same phase/pattern result as setting up MS, NOT decoding it, and summing the 2...

W is omni, positive everywhere, X is fig8- positive in the front lobe, and Y is side facing fig8, positive on only one side if you're facing the mic. I'm not sure of the absolute polarity of the Y, you should read the user guide though.


I have both (A pair of 700a and a single 700s). I would go with the C700S for live/acoustic stuff. Spaced pair of 700a on OH and 700s as room is a great combo!


To me, it's a shame to record the C700S and not at least be able to decode to MS, or better yet to decode with A-format abisonics tools. I mean, it's still a great mic, and I actually really like to decode to MS for a more simple application/need- but if you record all 3 caps you can try any option.

The steering is a pretty amazing way to mix- instead of panning, you can literally steer the stereo array to one side or the other.

Make sure you label EVERYTHING. It's easy to route the wrong channel somewhere- the only cap you can usually figure out which is which in post is the Y because it will have less volume. Preamp gains need to be tightly matched, stepped gain preamps for the win.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #9
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
I talked to David Josephson at an AES show years ago, and he mentioned maybe using one C700S with a pair of C617SET. It is tough to find a room/space good enough though.
I have this setup but haven't gotten a chance to use it yet - same thing, rooms just haven't been good enough to justify.

I also haven't had the pleasure of using two c700s, but I'm pretty sure I've seen Leonard Moskowitz talk about using multiple CoreSound Octomics then doing some kind of special decoding to take advantage of both mics being ambisonic. I'm not sure if he's on GS but he's pretty active on Facebook's spatial audio groups.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #10
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
Fun but expensive remote session recording plan: two Josephson C700S microphones, with each mic’s channels summed to mono into Sound Device Scorpio at 24/192. Spaced mics apart left and right, placed in room with musicians, hit record, leave room, come back later. Deliver stereo mix from the two mono mics on USB stick, sanitize microphones and recorder, pack gear. Escape to record live performances another time. Doesn’t cost anything after initial gear purchase. Could use iso tracks to mix 8.1 surround in post for extra work in addition to the stereo mix, from all mic channels saved on Scorpio.
Question: without considering the $ cost of buying two Josephson C700S microphones and Scorpio, would there be phase anomalies or such from summing each mic's channels to mono, then recording spaced pair as stereo? Maybe this is a question for David Josephson, about using his multi diaphragm mic without separating the channels.
You definitely DON’T want to do this.
If you sum the 3 capsules of a 700S you will end up with the equivalent of a mic pointed to the left. With two mics you will end up with 2 mics pointed to the left plus any phase cancellations. I doubt this is what you want. You definitely should record the individual capsule feeds from both mics. Then in post you will have the option
of adjusting the virtual mic pattern and mic angle (and you can have left and right angled mics rather than two fixed pattern mics pointed to the left.
Decoding using Harpex or the free Rode Soundfield plugin is easiest but you can do it with a mixer.
For the left mic, omni capsule feeds one channel, the forward-facing “X” fig 8
feeds another channel and the side-facing “Y” channel feeds a third channel.
By adjusting the ratio of omni to fig 8’s you can adjust the virtual mic pattern continuously from omni through cardiod to fig 8. With the X and Y fig 8’s as is ( positive polarity the virtual
mic can be steered continuously from 0deg (straight ahead) to 90 deg left). For the “right” mic you would do the sam
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
Fun but expensive remote session recording plan: two Josephson C700S microphones, with each mic’s channels summed to mono into Sound Device Scorpio at 24/192. Spaced mics apart left and right, placed in room with musicians, hit record, leave room, come back later. Deliver stereo mix from the two mono mics on USB stick, sanitize microphones and recorder, pack gear. Escape to record live performances another time. Doesn’t cost anything after initial gear purchase. Could use iso tracks to mix 8.1 surround in post for extra work in addition to the stereo mix, from all mic channels saved on Scorpio.
Question: without considering the $ cost of buying two Josephson C700S microphones and Scorpio, would there be phase anomalies or such from summing each mic's channels to mono, then recording spaced pair as stereo? Maybe this is a question for David Josephson, about using his multi diaphragm mic without separating the channels.
You definitely DON’T want to do this.
If you simply sum the 3 capsules of a 700S you will end up with the equivalent of a mic pointed to the left. With two mics you will end up with 2 mics pointed to the left plus any phase cancellations. I doubt this is what you want. You definitely should record all the individual capsule feeds from both mics. Then in post you will have the options of adjusting the virtual mic pattern and mic angle (and you can have left and right angled mics rather than two fixed pattern mics pointed to the left.
Decoding using Harpex or the free Rode Soundfield plugin is easiest but you can do it with a mixer.
Using a mixer:
For the left mic, omni capsule feeds one channel, the forward-facing “X” fig
8 feeds another channel and side-facing “Y” fig 8, the right mic is decoded the same except the “Y” capsule needs to be polarity inverted.
(You won’t be needing it, but for “pointing”
to left rear quadrant, you need to polarity
invert only the “X” capsule, for right rear quadrant you need to polarity invert both
X AND Y capsules).
Note that a single 700S can be decoded 2 times to produce any coincident stereo mic pattern ( and continuously steerable in the horizontal plane).

I like David Josephson’s suggestion of a single central 700S plus a
pair of C617’s (a variation of Boojum-Norman). My go to main setup for classical recording is a Soundfield DSF-1 with a C617 1ft on either side to add some spaciousness. And besides the C617 is a terrific mic.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #11
Gear Guru
 
🎧 5 years
i'd rather use double m/s than twin m/s (and hence either add a cardioid rear-facing mic or use mics from another manufacturer) but of course one will have to record the output of each capsule separately to get the system working as designed - summing all to mono is a rather bad idea as the previous poster pointed out!
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #12
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kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
thank you very much. Yes, idea is to sum each mic outputs to mono (3 to 1), then space the mic stands as if recording with 2 omnis, with the benefit of the C700S surround pickup. Much appreciate your thought about spacing distance. Perhaps 30 cm would be safer than 7 ft
Then it becomes a question of how you like working with spaced omnis. I like using a baffle, some people don't. Some people like widely spaced microphones in spite of the mono compatibility issues. Some people prefer narrow spacing in spite of the limited amplitude imaging.

If you generally want an interesting guide on working with spaced omni arrays, the book "Classical Recording in the Decca Tradition" lists a lot of well-tested techniques even if it is very very short on theory.

As always, don't try to set up stereo mikes without a pair of speakers to audition on, unless you really know the microphones and room very well. Listen on monitors to judge imaging and distance.

"3 to 1" summing isn't going to give you an omni pattern, it will give you something a little weird. Use just the omni output if you want an omni.
--scott
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #13
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
I remember the late Mike Skeet many years ago told me about a technique which he called The Clay Pigeon Array (Skeet Shooting!).
I found this description in one of his papers published on the website http://www.saturn-sound.com
Torben

SPACED M&S PAIRS
If you have a wide orchestral layout, or a wide choir, not in the preferred semi-circle where a single pair would suit, or you are recording a wide staged drama production, try the use of two spaced apart M&S pairs of mics!
You have them at around 1/3rd and 2/3rd spacings along the front of the performance area. The crucial thing is that you angle them inwards to the front centre of the layout. For instance, with an orchestra or choir, you angle both pairs inwards symmetrically something like 10 to 30 degrees depending on the situation and how far back the pairs need to be.
Obviously, pointing them straight ahead would not work! What you get with this technique is the left half of the soundstage covered by the left output of the left pair and right half of the soundstage covered by the right output of the right pair. The ambience from behind the mic positions is also acquired.
Both pairs are conventionally decoded and mixed together. The Mid mic polar patterns probably need to be cardioid, soft cardioid or omni, as appropriate to venue characteristics. Soloists beside the conductor have been satisfactorily covered, however spot Shot Gun mics with are not ruled out! Possibly it can be helpful if the spaced out M&S pairs are moved a little in their positioning to result in a more appropriate near central placing of a front stage soloist’s sound?
Spaced M&S pairs have been used for sound feeds to camera for Black Swan Film & Video excellently filmed for DVDs of the National Children’s Orchestra concerts. It actually suits the visuals to not have a mic stand behind the conductor, albeit that the writers mic stands are still ‘annoyingly’ shiny silver and not non-reflective black!
Some stages are two restricted in space to get a mic stand directly behind the conductor, and slinging from above can be a nightmare! Covered in Paper No.2 is the hidden bonus available from this use of spaced apart pairs of M&S rigs, as it does also allow for 5.0 Surround play back! – see the comments in the earlier Paper No.2.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #14
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surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie ➡️
You definitely DON’T want to do this.
If you sum the 3 capsules of a 700S you will end up with the equivalent of a mic pointed to the left.

I like David Josephson’s suggestion of a single central 700S plus a
pair of C617’s (a variation of Boojum-Norman). My go to main setup for classical recording is a Soundfield DSF-1 with a C617 1ft on either side to add some spaciousness. And besides the C617 is a terrific mic.
THANK YOU! your experience and helpful suggestion gives me hope for being back in the recording world again. I will consider one 700S with pair of C617s. I didn't know what the correct spacing should be after talking with David Josephson, but you have answered it. (30 cm apart with C700 centered)
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #15
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surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
"3 to 1" summing isn't going to give you an omni pattern, it will give you something a little weird. Use just the omni output if you want an omni.
--scott
right on, if it tastes like chicken, why not just have chicken. Could be a waste to use the multi diaphragm mic instead of just two omni C617 sets. Problem here is finding a room good enough to record in. Not many caverns, cathedrals, or caves
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #16
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surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorbenH ➡️
I remember the late Mike Skeet many years ago told me about a technique which he called The Clay Pigeon Array (Skeet Shooting!).
I found this description in one of his papers published on the website http://www.saturn-sound.com
Torben

SPACED M&S PAIRS
Interesting, wonder if it would work with two of the new Sanken CMS-50 mics
Super Short Mid Side (M-S) Stereo Professional Shotgun
Old 3 weeks ago
  #17
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Yannick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Sorry, but rtfm ...

You should just use the omni capsule instead of blindly summing everything. You basically created a phasy directional mic pointing in another direction.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #18
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🎧 10 years
If I remember correctly, Leonard Moskowitz's approach involved using a spaced pair of Octomics, each decoded into higher-order ambisonics, then turned into 2 virtual mics. With this approach, you basically have a spaced pair with any mic pattern you desire since you can manipulate the virtual mics to create any pattern you want in post, fine-tuning with polar patterns that would be impossible with normal mics. It seems like you'd be able to fine tune the response to better match the room.

I can't find his exact post on this, but check out this link for "Bilateral Ambisonics" using two Octomics - https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/co...wsyhIlZV3uZp1g

Also, you might search through the "Spatial Audio in VR / AR / MR" group, or the "Core Sound" page on FB. I know there are various groups working on ways to synthesize arrays of ambisonic microphones, with up to 420 CoreSound tetramics in use at one time in special setup at Facebook.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #19
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
THANK YOU! your experience and helpful suggestion gives me hope for being back in the recording world again. I will consider one 700S with pair of C617s. I didn't know what the correct spacing should be after talking with David Josephson, but you have answered it. (30 cm apart with C700 centered)
David said pretty much the same thing when I talked to him - no particular "go to" setup, basically use your ears and adjust to the room and for taste. Still a little tricky when you can also adjust the c700s width, fair number of variables for a 3 mic setup. But I'll have to try the 30cm spacing when recording becomes a thing again.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #20
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surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick ➡️
Sorry, but rtfm ...

You should just use the omni capsule instead of blindly summing everything. You basically created a phasy directional mic pointing in another direction.
Thank you, much appreciate the input. My question is answered, and it was a dumb idea to waste the surround features of the Josephson C700S mic by "blindly summing to mono" so I could impress clients with crazy recording method. I will consider just using two spaced C617SET omni mics
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #21
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kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
Thank you, much appreciate the input. My question is answered, and it was a dumb idea to waste the surround features of the Josephson C700S mic by "blindly summing to mono" so I could impress clients with crazy recording method. I will consider just using two spaced C617SET omni mics
Well, if you want the C700S as an omni, use the omni output and there's nothing wrong with that.

The C617 is a totally different thing... an amazing thing, but it won't sound the same.
--scott
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #22
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
My question is answered, and it was a dumb idea to waste the surround features of the Josephson C700S mic by "blindly summing to mono" so I could impress clients with crazy recording method. I will consider just using two spaced C617SET omni mics
nah, your idea led down some interesting paths. I think a spaced pair of c700s could lead to some great results using the techniques I've mentioned above, or the new binaural technique in that study.

And while both mics are top notch, they do have a very different tone. The c617set is super clean, clear and fast, and the c700s has more weight, thickness, not as fast on transients. They do complement each other nicely though (I've used them both on piano blended to taste).
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #23
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elpillo's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
...the Josephson C700S mic by "blindly summing to mono" so I could impress clients with crazy recording method...
Trust me, you'll only need one C700S to impress a client.

Lot's of good ideas in this post. I've been wanting to try the C700S with a pair MG M296's on the sides. I'm hoping they will sound good together.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #24
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elpillo ➡️
Trust me, you'll only need one C700S to impress a client.
Ha ha, no doubt, but all the same I'd love to record a jazz quintet with say, 8 c700s's!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #25
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Most of my clients couldn't care less what mic I stick in front of them. It is hard to impress musicians with fancy gear. It is expected. They only care if it does not make them sound good. By then it would be too late.
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