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Schopes vs Neumann sdc
Old 27th May 2020
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Schopes vs Neumann sdc

Hi!

I need a wide cardiod pair and a diffuse field omni pair for recording classical music in a church where a high frequency lift is often desirable. Maybe this have been discussed to pieces earlier in this forum, but really unsure if I should go for neumann km 100 a series or schoeps cmc6 series. The schoeps are far more expensive and going the neumann route, would make it possible to buy to sets of capsules. But I am really tempted by the mk21...

I have a pair of Senn 8020, but often they are too dark in the room I record in. Also have a pair of km 184 that are fine, nothing special and a pair of cardiod milab vm44 that are also ok.

Best wishes,

Knut
Old 27th May 2020
  #2
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Or, just stay with what you have and EQ the life out of it. You can thank me later for this free solution.
Old 27th May 2020
  #3
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by knuttta View Post
...I am really tempted by the mk21...
Many of us are tempted by the mk21. I certainly am.

However, you can make remarkably good recordings with the Neumann, Schoeps, Sennheiser, etc. offerings. When you get to this level it's really more about your preferences than anything else.

I have a pair of the Schoeps mk2S capsules that are designed for diffuse field. They work as advertised. But in your shoes, I would stick with the MKH 8020s and just apply EQ to bring up the "air" on the high frequency end that the 8020s aren't able to give you in this particular space. Nothing wrong with doing this; applying EQ to sound recordings is analogous to color correcting a photograph.
Old 27th May 2020
  #4
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elpillo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by knuttta View Post
I have a pair of Senn 8020, but often they are too dark in the room I record in
Looks like you need these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMqLgnDWTwI

The perfect solution if you ask me: inexpensive, you don't need to buy more mics (although that goes against being a true gearslut), beautiful recorded high frequencies that you can't really get with just EQ.

You can get these APE (Acoustic Pressure Equalizer) balls from this company, or a few others. You can 3D print them as well or make them our of wood (although I think certain materials have better properties for this particular task, not sure).

Good luck!
Old 27th May 2020
  #5
Lives for gear
To calculate the correct solution to your problem use the following algorithm:
If true == you don't have to answer to anybody
=> get the Schoeps.
Else
=> stay with what you have and make that work.

Software dev and Schoeps owner,

Ray H.

Schoeps may not appear at first that big of a difference. But if they will not crater your life/finances, go for them - not likely that you will regret it years from now, I think.
Old 28th May 2020
  #6
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Much better without the balls, more natural, EQ is the way to go.
Old 28th May 2020
  #7
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uOpt's Avatar
If you blow your cash on going Sennheiser to Neumann now you don't make a large enough step and will regret that you didn't go Schoeps. Which at that time are further out of reach because of the Neumanns.
Old 28th May 2020
  #8
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jnorman's Avatar
I have owned and used all of the mentioned mics. All of them - Sennheiser Mkh series, Schoeps collette Mk2,4,5,21, Neumann k1xx series, DPA 4011, 4006, gefells, josephson... - are excellent microphones with solid build quality and earned reputations, and any of them are quite capable of making professional level recordings. At that quality of microphone, the sound of the room, the performance and the ability of the engineer makes more difference than the mics.

The best engineer I know uses mkh8040s as his main pair, I have had clients prefer AT4051s over DPA 4011s on a Bosendorfer grand, and while my main mics are Schoeps, I have made a large number of excellent recordings with km184s and km183s and they remain my favorite piano spots.
Old 29th May 2020
  #9
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Thanks for replies!
Two additional questions:
- Would a wide cardiod pair be a versatile tool?
- I am having trouble integrating the sound from my two neumann tlms on vocal with the rest of my set up. Could Schoeps mk21 be used as vocal mic (for classical lieder)?

Best wishes,

Knut
Old 29th May 2020
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
... I have had clients prefer AT4051s over DPA 4011s on a Bosendorfer grand ...
Hmm, take any notice?
Old 29th May 2020
  #11
Here for the gear
 

Didn’t quite understand your comment, David.
While you are here: I really admire your Haydn recordings with Quatuor Mosaiques. Really wonderful sound, and almost made me buy the Royer sf12;-)

Knut
Old 29th May 2020
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knuttta View Post
Thanks for replies!
Two additional questions:
- Would a wide cardiod pair be a versatile tool?
- I am having trouble integrating the sound from my two neumann tlms on vocal with the rest of my set up. Could Schoeps mk21 be used as vocal mic (for classical lieder)?

Best wishes,

Knut

i personally LOVE the mk21's on pretty much anything, assuming recording takes place in a decent sounding room/hall (and one doesn't use a high number of mics and therefore thighter patterns).

i don't use pairs or multiple mics for spots though unless i need to pick up a very large instruments (such as piano, marimba, organ, entire drumkit etc.)

wide cardioid is my preferred pattern on the tlm170's (and tlm107's) too.
Old 29th May 2020
  #13
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by knuttta View Post
- Would a wide cardiod pair be a versatile tool?
A wide cardioid pair is a must in my case. There are many situations where omnis only work placing them extremely close to the source (and you get a in your-face-sound that maybe you don't want...), and there enters the wide-cardioid. In my case, if there's nothing below 50Hz, wide cardioids are used more often than omnis. MK21 is fantastic, Gefell M950 is in the same league, in my opinion, and in some cases a pair of U89s in wide-cardioid, close to the source, are an outstanding main pair.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by knuttta View Post
I need a wide cardiod pair (...) but really unsure if I should go for neumann km 100 a series or schoeps cmc6 series.
track 1 is Schoeps CMC 6 + MK 21, track 2 is Neumann KM 143 D.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
I have owned and used all of the mentioned mics. All of them - Sennheiser Mkh series, Schoeps collette Mk2,4,5,21, Neumann k1xx series, DPA 4011, 4006, gefells, josephson... - are excellent microphones with solid build quality and earned reputations, and any of them are quite capable of making professional level recordings. At that quality of microphone, the sound of the room, the performance and the ability of the engineer makes more difference than the mics.

The best engineer I know uses mkh8040s as his main pair, I have had clients prefer AT4051s over DPA 4011s on a Bosendorfer grand, and while my main mics are Schoeps, I have made a large number of excellent recordings with km184s and km183s and they remain my favorite piano spots.
jnorman: just curious, are both km184 and km183 your favorite piano spots, or was that the km183 only?

All: km184 as cello spots (or cello solo) I'm curious about how they would fair, pros and cons by experienced users are most welcome

::
Mads
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
Here for the gear
 

Thanks for the link, Didier. I think I slightly preferred the mk21 in this instance. A very sweet piano sound, without sacrificing detail
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
... so why does the text of that post, and the attached graph, refer to the MK 4?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knuttta View Post
Didn’t quite understand your comment, David.
While you are here: I really admire your Haydn recordings with Quatuor Mosaiques. Really wonderful sound, and almost made me buy the Royer sf12;-)

Knut
Interesting, where did you hear them? I didn't think they were released, these recordings were for Musica Viva in Australia. The SF12 worked well on that occasion. But maybe you are mistaking me for someone else?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ithinknot View Post
... so why does the text of that post, and the attached graph, refer to the MK 4?
Because of my mistake in this old post. The discussion was about comparing LF response of KM 184 and MK 4. But my shootout was with the MK 21 as stated in the key file (password = crappybass).
Old 4 weeks ago
  #20
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Interesting, where did you hear them? I didn't think they were released, these recordings were for Musica Viva in Australia. The SF12 worked well on that occasion. But maybe you are mistaking me for someone else?
Sorry, i misunderstood. I read in an old post here that you had recorded them playing Haydn quartets, so I just assumed that you where responsible for their fantastic Haydn recordings on NAIVE.
You don´t happen to know who made them and how? They are really spectacular!!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #21
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jnorman's Avatar
Mads - I use the km183s on piano in decent spaces, and km184s in smaller spaces. I find that, overall, the two neumanns have a similar tonal character, though the 183s provide a more effective low frequency capture and are a tad brighter. The 184s are better at rejecting poor room sound, and at giving a bit more isolation from other instruments.
While I have used km184s as mains for string quartet, I don’t usually select them as string spots. A more neutral response mic like cmc64 or akg c480/ck61 are my choice for that application.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #22
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Or, you can use a pair of MKH800Twins and adjust the pick up pattern in post until cows come home. The asking price is stiff, but it covers them all.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #23
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GIACOMO-_'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
Or, you can use a pair of MKH800Twins and adjust the pick up pattern in post until cows come home. The asking price is stiff, but it covers them all.
I sell one MK800 Twins.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #24
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
Mads - I use the km183s on piano in decent spaces, and km184s in smaller spaces. I find that, overall, the two neumanns have a similar tonal character, though the 183s provide a more effective low frequency capture and are a tad brighter. The 184s are better at rejecting poor room sound, and at giving a bit more isolation from other instruments.
While I have used km184s as mains for string quartet, I don’t usually select them as string spots. A more neutral response mic like cmc64 or akg c480/ck61 are my choice for that application.
Right, I've always found my km184 somewhat lacking in the bass department (but will remember piano spot use). I agree about closeup use on strings, maybe cello but not violine and and viola... I have an idea I would get more use out of km183, than my km184 - anyone in for a swap?

::
Mads
Old 3 weeks ago
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
Right, I've always found my km184 somewhat lacking in the bass department, agree about closeup use on strings, maybe cello but not violine and and viola... I have an idea I would get more use out of km183, than my km184 - anyone in for a swap?

::
Mads
not sure your interpretation is entirely correct: one thing is that directional mics per se have a bit weaker lf response than omnis. and the other thing is that the km184 - at least when compared to the km84 or the mk4 - does have a significant hf boost which can trick one into believing they lack lf; imo they don't, certainly not when used on string instruments (except for the bass).

i'd use filters to cut down some of the hf boost (and hpf on higher pitched instruments anyway)...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #26
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One very old trick on the book is to stripe one omni and one regular cardioid together, using them as an adjustable array between cardioid to omni, and anywhere in between. You vary the ratio between the two mics, either at the preamp/console for a permanent setting, or record both mics independently, later adjust the ratio in post. You can even do some padding, such as inserting a hi cut filter on the omni mic to only enhance the bass of the cardioid. Same idea as using a MKH800 Twin.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #27
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
not sure your interpretation is entirely correct: one thing is that directional mics per se have a bit weaker lf response than omnis. and the other thing is that the km184 - at least when compared to the km84 or the mk4 - does have a significant hf boost which can trick one into believing they lack lf; imo they don't, certainly not when used on string instruments (except for the bass).

i'd use filters to cut down some of the hf boost (and hpf on higher pitched instruments anyway)...
I hear a roll off in the bottom, even compared to some of my other sdc cardioids. And the boost on top yes. In my experience, it's much easier to add a lift to a linear microphones top end, than to reduce a lift which is "build into the microphone"

::
Mads
Old 3 weeks ago
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
I hear a roll off in the bottom, even compared to some of my other sdc cardioids. And the boost on top yes. In my experience, it's much easier to add a lift to a linear microphones top end, than to reduce a lift which is "build into the microphone"

::
Mads
...while my experience and pratice how to apply filters is at the exact opposite end of the spectrum!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #29
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
...while my experience and pratice how to apply filters is at the exact opposite end of the spectrum!
Didn't get you there - are you lifting the bottom end or..?

::
Mads
Old 3 weeks ago
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
Didn't get you there - are you lifting the bottom end or..?

::
Mads
no but i'm hardly ever boosting, i'm mostly cutting - and i do not experience any lack of lf response from km184's (i'm using four km184d's quite regularly) as imo only very few instruments require extended lf pickup; for these, i'm mostly using different mics or proximity effect (to some degree) compensates for weak lf response (should there be any).
additionally, i very much like clear articulation and strive for a precise stereo image; too much lf and the image gets blurred. i'm therefore using hpf's on most sources...
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