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Erik Satie - Philip Entremont recordings
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
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AlexK's Avatar
 

Erik Satie - Philip Entremont recordings

During lockdown I’ve been listening to these recordings a lot. Putting the playing aside which is amazing, the recordings also sound exquisite.

Seeing as these seem to be a seminal recording of Satie’s music, does anyone have any information about them? I can’t seem to find out anything about the venue or engineer....
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexK View Post
Philip Entremont recordings
His name is Philippe.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred2bern View Post
Hi,
If it is the right cd:
https://www.allmusic.com/album/satie...357419/credits
then
https://www.qsl.net/aa7fv/roy.htm

And you can send an email.
It would be great if he could be encouraged to participate on this forum also ?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #4
Gear Nut
 

Some wonderful interpretations on this recording. Thank you for sharing!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #5
Found this, which offers engineering credits and venue notes:

https://www.discogs.com/Satie-Entrem...elease/6862248
Old 2 weeks ago
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Found this, which offers engineering credits and venue notes:

https://www.discogs.com/Satie-Entrem...elease/6862248
Interesting, recorded late '79 in a Paris church...using Sony And 3M digital equipment. That would make it a relatively early digital release, probably pre-DAT tape era. 14 bit max ? Which other digital recording equipment mfrs had available devices in 1979...Mitsubishi maybe ?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

Long before DAT. Long before the PCM-F1. 3M was the only option for multitrack if you needed it.

In 1978/79 we were recording 2ch Sony PCM1 on to Umatic tape. It was 12bit plus ranging bit. Around the same time there were later models appearing from Sony - PCM1600 which was 16bit, and PCM100 which was 14bit.

EMI was working with its own 2ch SELabs reel-to-reel, and with JVC who had a 2ch 16bit Umatic based system. Decca had its own IVC based helical scan recorder system.

For editing we copied Sony digital recordings to 3M digital until Sony released the DAE1100 hardware based editor.

The most elegant system in those early days was Soundstream reel-to-reel which I remember using in Boston and in London.

Not long later Mitsubishi came out with reel-to-reel recorders which enabled longer wordlength recording. We had two 2ch Mitsubishi recorders which sounded great with dCS converters but weighed a lot. When the Sony PCM3324 multitrack came out it was so heavy that we could not use the lift with it in the Vienna Musikverein, instead we had to book four piano movers from Bosendorfer to carry it up several flights of stairs to the control-room.

Some call those the Good Old Days, but I prefer my present Audient pre's, RME interface and a laptop.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #8
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Thanks for filling in the gaps with those valuable facts and recollections Tony ! I got to hear a Barry Tuckwell live recording made during an Australian tour on a Sony F1/Umatic some years ago...and being surprised how good that lower bit recording sounded ! Wasn't Soundstream adopted by Sheffield Labs in the US for some of their jazz and classical releases...I seem to recall a unique sampling rate, maybe 60k ?

I wonder what accounted for the weight of that Sony multitrack...was it an integrated mixer/recording system ?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #9
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The two TelArc LPs at the top of my "recently listened" stack (Kunzel Cincinnati Tchaikovsky 1812 1979, and Fennell Cleveland Symphonic Winds Arnaud/V. Williams/Grainger 1980) were done via SoundStream 50kHz/16bit. In 1979/80, they sounded better than anything else out there. Thanks to low plays and lots of TLC over the past 40 years... they still do.

Both were produced by Robert Woods and engineered by Jack Renner.

A side note... also exemplary (and mind-blowing, from a performance perspective to this old high school jazz band trombonist) was Sheffield Lab-2, which was recorded "Direct-to-Disk" as "I've Got The Music In Me", a full side at a whack, with 32 live-mixed inputs including the band and Thelma Houston with six BGV singers over three days at The Mastering Lab in LA. Doug Sax and Lincoln Mayorga produced the sessions, with Bill Schnee engineering. There is nothing like this on vinyl.

I may just have to play it again... soon.

Cheers.

HB
Old 2 weeks ago
  #10
Gear Maniac
 

The Sony PCM3324 had nothing special monitor-mixing-wise. Line-level analogue in/out, digital in/out. I guess the main weight was down to the tape transport and the power supply.

The a/d and d/a converter chips in the PCM3324 were made by Sony and I believe the a/d ones had two separate conversion elements linked internally thermally. In Quality Control the best chips were singled out for the 24track, and the not-quite-so-best chips ended up in the F1, 701, 501, etc.. Any which were not good enough for F1 etc. ended up in a skip dumpster I guess.

The F1 was the breakthrough product for democratising digital audio recording affordably. The next very major milestone for democratising digital audio recording was editing within a workstation rather than A/B roll professional hardware based. That came a bit later.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
...Sheffield Lab-2, which was recorded "Direct-to-Disk" as "I've Got The Music In Me", ... There is nothing like this on vinyl.
I am confused by this. Wasn't it direct to 33 1/3 12 inch vinyl, not Compact Disc ...sorry, Disk?

Or are you saying there is nothing *else* like this on vinyl?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #12
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I still get calls to transfer Beta, or VHS F1 encoded tapes, from time to time. It is getting harder and harder to keep the video machines going.

Nakamich took a shot at that format as well. They produced a much better sounding encoder/decoder box than that of Sony F1.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
I am confused by this. Wasn't it direct to 33 1/3 12 inch vinyl, not Compact Disc ...sorry, Disk?

Or are you saying there is nothing *else* like this on vinyl?
They called it "Direct-to-Disk" because the console output directly drove the cutting lathe. The band did two masters (22min per side, straight through) over three days (one rehearsal, two cutting). The sides of my two copies (one unopened) came from one of those two masters. Like I said... it's a "one of a kind" product. Sheffield did four of these "D2D" projects, IIRC.

CDs were eventually produced... "The CD version of this album is from the Audiophile Reference Series and was created using the last playable U-Matic digital session copy. The original analog tape and U-Matic copy had become damaged and unplayable as the album had been out of print for almost fifteen years when it was decided to release this CD version." This info was from:

https://fromvinyltoplastic.com/vinyl...effield-lab-2/

Hope this helps.

HB
Old 2 weeks ago
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
I am confused by this. Wasn't it direct to 33 1/3 12 inch vinyl, not Compact Disc ...sorry, Disk?

Or are you saying there is nothing *else* like this on vinyl?
Yes, it was recorded direct to 33.3 lacquer and that became the LP master. However, they naturally ran a parallel analog (it was 1975 or so, thus unlikely to be digital) tape recording at the same time, which was used to generate the much-later CD release, and probably also for the later vinyl reissue pressings, after the original stamper wore out. I seem to recall the original vinyl pressing was a limited edition run....maybe 500 or so.

* NB....I happily defer to HB's much more accurate description of the album's genesis, in the post above !

I bet the disc cutting engineer was sweating bullets during the process....talk about getting it right live, with little error margin !
Old 2 weeks ago
  #15
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It was the '70s, when the cloven hooves of digital loomed over all. And I do recall a replay of that disc over some decent gear (see below). Mind you, Lincoln Mayorca's arrangements were aimed at maxing it impressive, and the performers (The Wrecking Crew?)were up to the challenge*.

Down Under, I have a copy of a direct to disc experiment on the Melbourne JazzNote label (Bill Hawtin, Max Hull) with a jazz quartet direct to disc in the Astor Factory. The technical Manager, Harry Mauger, had presented a demonstration of some American D2D recordings to the Melbourne AES, and decided to give it a go, setting up a temporary studio next to the cutting room in the factory. Senior cutting engineer Frank Hulbert oversaw the cut on a Neumann ZT32S lathe with SX74 cutting head. In the end, the performance was secondary and the sound (within the confines of the environment), was excellent. (My copy is signed by all of the above.)

IIRC, there was a live demonstration of D2D at the AES Convention in 2001 (New York, where else?). Naked analog can give excellent results ... QED. But it is more about minimising the number of transistors and stick-slip friction in the chain (not to mention well-meaning production 'intervention).

(* An experiment to combine this and half-speed cutting was not so successful ...)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #16
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This thread shows that OT can indeed be a positive experience, really enjoy the info

Given the development in digital recording technology, it's quite interesting how good early digital can be.

I wonder if the extra hazzle using the gear (and the digital hype of course) was a strong psychological factor for the extra effort to get it just right. You probably wouldn't make a recording in a less than stellar space, including great microphones and careful placement with such heavy gear (that at least some of it were) not to mention post production limitations..!?

::
Mads
Old 2 weeks ago
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
Given the development in digital recording technology, it's quite interesting how good early digital can be.

::
Mads
This was the one that impressed me the most -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dbx_Mo...udio_Processor

Of course the early Sony PCM1600s were less than perfect until Bruce Jackson et al (Apogee) redesigned their filters for them in 1985 ... :o))

But it was the old filters in the PCM1600 rack (plus of course the adjunct U-matic video recorder) when EMI's Studios 301 in Sydney did their first Direct to Digital in 1979, featuring the singer Kerrie Biddell. I think it was an exercise to show off the quality of their studio. All done continuously, one take, straight to the Sony and then straight to the lathe. The result was a 12" 45 (33 was obviously not good enough).

Another Direct-to-Digital that tickled my fancy was also a piano recital (maybe Reference Recordings?). Being fastidious engineers, they had to rehearse the peak levels, but the pianist was inconsistent with their dynamics. The end was a double digital product. The recital was recorded using a piano with the Yamaha digital equivalent of the old piano roll - then the engineers could play it back as often as they liked till they got the levels just right. Then press 'record' ...

I occasionally observe a behaviour that I call "misplaced heroism" ...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #18
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
This was the one that impressed me the most -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dbx_Mo...udio_Processor

Of course the early Sony PCM1600s were less than perfect until Bruce Jackson et al (Apogee) redesigned their filters for them in 1985 ... :o))

But it was the old filters in the PCM1600 rack (plus of course the adjunct U-matic video recorder) when EMI's Studios 301 in Sydney did their first Direct to Digital in 1979, featuring the singer Kerrie Biddell. I think it was an exercise to show off the quality of their studio. All done continuously, one take, straight to the Sony and then straight to the lathe. The result was a 12" 45 (33 was obviously not good enough).

Another Direct-to-Digital that tickled my fancy was also a piano recital (maybe Reference Recordings?). Being fastidious engineers, they had to rehearse the peak levels, but the pianist was inconsistent with their dynamics. The end was a double digital product. The recital was recorded using a piano with the Yamaha digital equivalent of the old piano roll - then the engineers could play it back as often as they liked till they got the levels just right. Then press 'record' ...

I occasionally observe a behaviour that I call "misplaced heroism" ...
Interesting read - thank you!

::
Mads
Old 2 weeks ago
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
I think it was an exercise to show off the quality of their studio. All done continuously, one take, straight to the Sony and then straight to the lathe. The result was a 12" 45 (33 was obviously not good enough)
The reason for the 45 rpm was that they could get the grooves spaced a bit further apart, and consequently more of the dynamics could be preserved. Even today with some LP reissues there's a trend to release a single 33 rpm album spread across the 4 sides of 2x 45rpm records, for the same reason (greater dynamics capability)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #20
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The Technical Manager for the EMI project is now a Melbourne AES colleague. He has vivid recollections of the project which was indeed meant to showcase the studio's capabilities.

One point that he made. As with Direct to Disc, each side was done as a single take; reason - at that stage there was no editing capability for the PCM1600 system! The session started about 7pm. Several takes were required for Side A each take of 3 songs total duration 15 mins. Then 3 takes of Side B, of which Take 3 (finished about midnight) made it to the disc. The final track is a bravura performance by Kerrie Biddell of the James Taylor classic "Steamroller" finishing with a "go for the octave" gliss - at the end of a five hours session? Some chops ...

Sadly, I believe this performance has only been released on the original vinyl; no CD release, although it is hoped that the original U-matic tape might remain safely in the vaults of Universal Music in Sydney, and a PCM1600 and U-matic deck might someday be found to play it back. A true demonstration of the quality of early digital.

(Sounds like this sort of stuff needs a thread of its own ... )
Old 2 weeks ago
  #21
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Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
Sadly, I believe this performance has only been released on the original vinyl; no CD release, although it is hoped that the original U-matic tape might remain safely in the vaults of Universal Music in Sydney, and a PCM1600 and U-matic deck might someday be found to play it back. A true demonstration of the quality of early digital.

(Sounds like this sort of stuff needs a thread of its own ... )
Sounds like a project definitely worthy of release, or at least transferring to a "safer" digital medium than a tape reliant one ....in its current state as you describe, it's just as fragile (if not more so) than an analog tape surviving for that time.

Ideally get a media mover-shaker-moneymaker to lend some urgency and gravitas to the project (Alan Jones has some time on his hands now....) before some nerdy bean-counter at Universal Sydney decides they can't afford the storage space for those 'old tapes', and they get sent to Skippsville....or worse, a storage facility fire breaks out (Universal are good at those !)

There are probably a rare few U-matics and PCM devices, but a digital tape machine with any rubber parts within is likely to be unplayable, requiring expert tech adjustment, possible caps replacement etc etc. How many techs do you know that are still around with the skills and spare parts to align and repair such a device ? By comparison, getting an analog tape player running again is a piece of pyss.....!

Just sayin'...time is of the essence, pana
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