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Critique for Live Performance video
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
Here for the gear
Critique for Live Performance video

Hi All Remoters,
I hope your staying safe out there. These days, not much to do besides mix music, edit video and practice new production techniques.

I did a video/audio production before the shutdown and wanted to find out what the golden ears of the remote forum think.

Please go to my Vimeo account to check out this new piece. I think this is only the second performance.

https://vimeo.com/398731135

Thanks,
Rob
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
Can you tell us how the recording was done? Not my cup of tea music wise but...more interested in how you did the recording, equipment used and mics used. Thanks in advance.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
Here for the gear
Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Can you tell us how the recording was done? Not my cup of tea music wise but...more interested in how you did the recording, equipment used and mics used. Thanks in advance.
If you watch the video, you can see all the mics.
If you don’t like modern contemporary classical, I can post something more tonal from this concert. I happen to really like all the colors in this piece.

This is basically a Dante job to Pro Tools.
Recorded to Pro Tools 2020, I/F RED 8 Pre. Recorded to 96k 24bit clocked to Rednet MP8R. All mains mics went to the MP8R. Main preamp is Rednet MP8R under the stage with cat 5E run to switch at mix position. Switch is a Cisco SG300-10. I setup the remote preamp for control within the Pro Tools session preamp section. Rednet control app translates ProTools control data to protocol the MP8R can read.
Presonus Faderport 8 as fader panel. Live mix sent to FOH to be distributed to live stream. Reverb is a Lex 480L model by bx.
Used a lot of Tentacle syncs timecode generators to jam sync all the cameras and ProTools rig. Used a MOTU midi i/f to convert LTC to MTC for ProTools.

Shot mostly on qty 4 LUMIX GH5S in 4K 29.97 and mostly panned in post, 1 GH5, and 1 Sony PXW-X70 in HD for conductor shot.
Mains array ORTF 414TL II 11’ up and about 8’ behind conductor (due to layout issues)
Flankers are JZ Black Hole 1’s in cardiod also about 11’ up
Neumann KM 140’s in ORTF in center to pickup detail. (Like a broad area spot)
KM 150 as a bassoon solo spot for The Mozart Bassoon concerto elsewhere in the program.
Violet Amethyst as a spot for mallets and bowed percussion (not needed)
Head worn Earthworks A/T mic sent from PA prefader, conversion by Red 8.

This rig was dead silent. Sadly, the knucklehead percussionists opened the door the the equipment room and all the amp room noise got picked up by the mics in the super quiet sections.

Pictures are in my LR when I setup the templates.
Attached Thumbnails
Critique for Live Performance video-831f1931-af6a-4263-8771-319cb3bee9e4.jpg   Critique for Live Performance video-24ddd314-4d4b-4ba1-9605-b42d0fc07560.jpg   Critique for Live Performance video-69da4b3c-c6cb-4c72-8c6b-ef7095974ecd.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ten10MXR View Post
If you watch the video, you can see all the mics.
If you don’t like modern contemporary classical, I can post something more tonal from this concert. I happen to really like all the colors in this piece.

This is basically a Dante job to Pro Tools.
Recorded to Pro Tools 2020, I/F RED 8 Pre. Recorded to 96k 24bit clocked to Rednet MP8R. All mains mics went to the MP8R. Main preamp is Rednet MP8R under the stage with cat 5E run to switch at mix position. Switch is a Cisco SG300-10. I setup the remote preamp for control within the Pro Tools session preamp section. Rednet control app translates ProTools control data to protocol the MP8R can read.
Presonus Faderport 8 as fader panel. Live mix sent to FOH to be distributed to live stream. Reverb is a Lex 480L model by bx.
Used a lot of Tentacle syncs timecode generators to jam sync all the cameras and ProTools rig. Used a MOTU midi i/f to convert LTC to MTC for ProTools.

Shot mostly on qty 4 LUMIX GH5S in 4K 29.97 and mostly panned in post, 1 GH5, and 1 Sony PXW-X70 in HD for conductor shot.
Mains array ORTF 414TL II 11’ up and about 8’ behind conductor (due to layout issues)
Flankers are JZ Black Hole 1’s in cardiod also about 11’ up
Neumann KM 140’s in ORTF in center to pickup detail. (Like a broad area spot)
KM 150 as a bassoon solo spot for The Mozart Bassoon concerto elsewhere in the program.
Violet Amethyst as a spot for mallets and bowed percussion (not needed)
Head worn Earthworks A/T mic sent from PA prefader, conversion by Red 8.

This rig was dead silent. Sadly, the knucklehead percussionists opened the door the the equipment room and all the amp room noise got picked up by the mics in the super quiet sections.

Pictures are in my LR when I setup the templates.
Thanks for the setup notes.

I have done a lot of contemporary classical recordings for release in my day including being the first person to record George Rochberg's "Black Sounds" released on vinyl. I also did a lot of recording of other contemporary classical composers including Elizabeth Bell, Olly Wilson, Jeffery Mumford, Adam Schoenberg and Dary John Mizelle just to mention a few.

Your recording sounds good. I personally would like to have heard more hall sound. Sometimes using lots of mics is great sometimes it does not convey the space that a lot of these contemporary compositions need. This is not a criticism just an observation. I understand the need for the soloist to be on wireless but the perspective is not the same as the orchestra and it is a bit "strange".

I guess if possible I would like to hear a classical piece using this setup.

I hope this is the kind of feedback you were looking for.

Be safe and STAY HEALTHY!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
Here for the gear
Your recording sounds good. I personally would like to have heard more hall sound. Sometimes using lots of mics is great sometimes it does not convey the space that a lot of these contemporary compositions need. This is not a criticism just an observation. I understand the need for the soloist to be on wireless but the perspective is not the same as the orchestra and it is a bit "strange".

I guess if possible I would like to hear a classical piece using this setup.

I hope this is the kind of feedback you were looking for.

Be safe and STAY HEALTHY![/QUOTE]

Thanks Thomas for your reply.
The composer actually specified that PA reinforcement should be used. I asked the guy at the board to mix it into the texture as opposed to letting it sail over the top. It’s tricky since the singer enters from the back accapella, but eventually has to be heard over an 80 piece wind ensemble. Then there’s the bloom when she gets into her sweet spot. It’s all about managing dynamics.
Regarding the hall, it is a church with many hard specular reflections 50 ms to 200ms that dominate the halls reverb tail, which is thin and not well developer. Plus the cross shaped sections left and right of the stage lend a tubby character that adds a short veil. Recordings in here made with an AB pair of Shoeps MK 2H tend to not be good. Harsh, uncorrelated, unmusical, poor imaging. Therefore I removed the hall somewhat. The balance is roughly 50% main pair, 35% flanks, a tad bit of detail ORTF and head worn mic as needed.
A little bit of custom 480L hall as needed.

Be safe and healthy yourself!
Hopefully we’ll all be able to get out there again soon to make music and practice our art.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6
Gear Nut
 

I enjoyed the composition - the rather moving backstory of which is here: http://www.ostimusic.com/Places.php - and the soloist is excellent.

Fundamental sound is good - nice job. As Tom says, there could be - but doesn't have to be - more room sound/sense of the performance space.

The musical language of this particular piece has elements of contemporary musical theater, and the close sound 'works' here. In more traditional rep, a little more space might be welcome, whether real room sound, or supplied as reverb - of course only you could judge that, based on the space, audience noise etc. This is a question of aesthetics and conventions, though, not a criticism of your capture.

I do think we need a bit more verb/distance on the head mic, especially at the beginning. It's particularly an issue because of your fine video work - the eye and ear register a discrepancy between the size of the space we can see and hear for the band, and the smaller space/distance suggested by the vocal sound.

Thanks for sharing!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #7
Here for the gear
Thanks for your comments all, I do appreciate the perspective. Also, thanks ithinknot for posting the backstory to this piece from John Mackey's website.

Regarding depth, this is something I go back and forth with myself endlessly, and frequently let the compostion tell me what to do. Since it is a recording, and one step removed from the live performance, how shackled are we to represent the actual space? Sometimes, the space is not our friend, or the music tells a more intimate story than the space it is presented in. In one program, you can have pieces from many centuries presented. Ideally, they would be presented in a great hall appropriate to the era.

The flipside of this is that if the compositions are played back to back in an album sort of organization, than changing the sense of space becomes dishonest and jarring, flat out wrong. So what to do? Go ahead and represent the space for performance honesty.

So the singer moving about the space presents a connundrum. Also, It's on video, which visually shows a changing perspective, esp. on her medium shots.

I suppose I could have made it wetter. I will consider that next time if we ever get out of the lockdown.

This mix was made to represent the piece in a one off video. Therefore I felt I had a little more leeway to pursue the spacial goals I had in mind for this one. I wanted superior imaging. I wanted intimacy off the instruments. I wanted the singer not to be too close, yet not too far, since she is telling the story of the afflicted and moving around the whole space. It is a rather theatrical piece. I did experiment with longer spaces but felt I had to back off because of the conundrum the headworn mic provided both visually and audio. I'm just very happy it wasn't too close and gave off all kinds of awfull plosives and other close junk. Also, she was walking amidst the loudspeakers in the hall, potential for all kinds of disasters. She setup the mic on herself, fortunately she's a pro. I couldn't do it because I had to don a tuxedo, warmup, and play myself (I'm in the trombone section). So I had a lot going on! Only so much one can do at one time.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
Lives for gear
 

i like it quite a bit,

less the composition but the audio in terms of spectral balance and total amount of efx/room sound.

what i like less is the lack of depth, the stereo picture/localisation, that there are several sections/instruments without much definiton in general/get drowned in the orchestra occasionally and don't match in terms of room sound - the soloist i find often too loud/doesn't sit in the mix.

also, the soloists starting out in the audience doesn't do anything valuable and the change in position doesn't get reflected in the mix; i admit this is difficult to achieve in stereo though!

btw:what kinda pa was there btw? 2.0, 5.1? and is this a downmix from surround or the mix you did in stereo? was this just to document the concert or destined to be released as a commercially available dvd/for streaming? if the latter, i don't get why the live performance was recorded and not the rehearsal: it's just too noisy!

in a nutshell: for this composition, performed in this venue, i would have used vastly more mics - no comment on the lights/video, none of my business...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i like it quite a bit,

less the composition but the audio in terms of spectral balance and total amount of efx/room sound.

what i like less is the lack of depth, the stereo picture/localisation, that there are several sections/instruments without much definiton in general/get drowned in the orchestra occasionally and don't match in terms of room sound - the soloist i find often too loud/doesn't sit in the mix.

also, the soloists starting out in the audience doesn't do anything valuable and the change in position doesn't get reflected in the mix; i admit this is difficult to achieve in stereo though!

btw:what kinda pa was there btw? 2.0, 5.1? and is this a downmix from surround or the mix you did in stereo? was this just to document the concert or destined to be released as a commercially available dvd/for streaming? if the latter, i don't get why the live performance was recorded and not the rehearsal: it's just too noisy!

in a nutshell: for this composition, performed in this venue, i would have used vastly more mics - no comment on the lights/video, none of my business...
Thanks for chiming in deedeeyeah:
The PA is mono, basically 6 2way speakers permanently mounted inside columns left and right that support the balcony.
Since the intent of this production was to document the concert, promote the ensemble on Vimeo and YouTube, the mix is stereo only. If I was only doing audio, I would have had more time to mount mics in the middle or back for rear pickup.
In retrospect, I should have automated the panning and reverb of the singer, so that she starts out distant and center, then evolves into a fixed position left of the conductor. I did the mix first, then cut the video. It would have been nice to do a surround production on this I admit, that would be much better.
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