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Stereo recording with 3 mics? Solo class guitar xy cardioids with mono ribbon middle?
Old 17th April 2020
  #1
Gear Nut
 

Stereo recording with 3 mics? Solo class guitar xy cardioids with mono ribbon middle?

Any reason not to do this? I have one figure 8 ribbon pointed at the guitar and a pair of cardioids (stereo mic) in xy slightly above the ribbon mics (a few inches), The xy stereo mic angle can be either 90 or 120 degrees, does it matter? I thought maybe 120 as I'm using the mono ribbon in the middle. All mics are the same distance from the guitar (a couple/few feet). Is there any worries about stereo field or phase issues? It sounds ok to me. (I'm more guitarist than recordist) I can then adjust the mono middle track with the xy stereo track to taste? Is this anything like MS recording?

So, is this a classical stereo recording technique no no? Is it too mono with the middle track being maybe the prominent sound and the cardioids just for stereo field ambience? Altho, I've got them more or less almost leveled.

It's just a bedroom studio, so not big or great sounding. (altho adding impulse reverb to taste gets me there) If I move the xy mics back further from the ribbon mic will that present more phase or stereo field issues? Will I have to compensate for any delays with only a foot or few feet difference?

Thanks!
Old 17th April 2020
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choros View Post
Any reason not to do this? I have one figure 8 ribbon pointed at the guitar and a pair of cardioids (stereo mic) in xy slightly above the ribbon mics (a few inches), The xy stereo mic angle can be either 90 or 120 degrees, does it matter? I thought maybe 120 as I'm using the mono ribbon in the middle. All mics are the same distance from the guitar (a couple/few feet). Is there any worries about stereo field or phase issues? It sounds ok to me. (I'm more guitarist than recordist) I can then adjust the mono middle track with the xy stereo track to taste? Is this anything like MS recording?

So, is this a classical stereo recording technique no no? Is it too mono with the middle track being maybe the prominent sound and the cardioids just for stereo field ambience? Altho, I've got them more or less almost leveled.

It's just a bedroom studio, so not big or great sounding. (altho adding impulse reverb to taste gets me there) If I experiment with moving the xy mics back further ribbon mic will that present more phase or stereo field issues? Will I have to compensate for any delays with only a foot or few feet difference?

Thanks!
The whole purpose of using x/y is mono compatibility - as a result, you won't get very much of a stereo spread at all - you'll get a tight, focused sound. Yes, 90 degrees.

You'd be better off using one cardioid (from your x/y pair) as a "center" mic, and the ribbon as two sides in a M/S (mid side) set up.

Still, the main question is, what's your objective? Is it a big spacious sound? If you're recording in a bedroom studio, that's not going to be easy

Think about what you want to achieve, then go for mic placement. If you're recording classical guitar in a larger, perhaps nice ambient space, there are numerous options for capturing a spacious sound - search you tube for "classical guitar recording mic's" or something similar, grab a cup of coffee and listen, with headphones.
Old 17th April 2020
  #3
Lives for gear
I can't see why you'd want to use 3 mics for an instrument as small as a guitar ? How wide do you want the resultant sound field to be ? The xy pair alone will be sufficient to give you a small stereo width image, one which is probably appropriate to the instrument's size.

If you move the XY pair back into the room you might expect a little more room sound to be incorporated into the sound, which could be pleasing ? The xy pair alone are quite capable of generating a 'phantom centre' image by themselves....without any need for an additional centre mic.

What you're proposing is certainly not classical stereo recording theory...and more likely a recipe for a heavy-centre sound with minimal stereo imagery, and perhaps for phasing hell too ?

Why not go for conventional wisdom guitar miking...SD condensor mic at 12th fret and another somewhere on the body, below the soundhole ? Or ORTF a bit further back ?

Above all I'd urge experimenting with all of these...the one that gives you the best, most pleasing sound is the right one for you !
Old 17th April 2020
  #4
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Some listeners will have very strong expectations for what a classical guitar - playing classical or romantic era music - must sound like with respect to image and ambiance.

This often comes down to using one or two mics at some distance [think 4+ feet] from the instrument in a large space with wood reflections.

I opened another thread a couple years back inquiring about mic configurations used to record Berta Rojas. . .the resulting sound being not traditional. The wideness aspect seemed to quite bother a number of excellent engineers - despite the repertoire being no where near classical nor romantic.

For me, a focused image is often important. . .and exactly what I need - but not always.

Are you doing classical, romantic, or something modern?

What are the motivations that impact what you would want the stereo image to be?

Not a question I would expect you to answer now, but to consider over a period of months to years.


Best wishes,

Ray H.
Old 17th April 2020
  #5
Gear Nut
 

Thanks, the reason for resorting to this is one of my ribbon mics isn't working properly (even after storing it with the ribbon vertical for a few years). So, I only have access to the mics in my xy stereo recorder and one figure 8 mono ribbon mic. The xy recorder doesn't allow me to use only one cardioid in mono or I'd try MS - but even then I'd rather the ribbon as the mid, is that even a thing? Figure 8 mid, cardioid side?)
I like the natural ribbon mic sound way better on my nylon classical guitar thru my Metric Halo ULN-2. So, I'm down to using the ribbon in mono which I don't want to have to do, or my ribbon as a mid mic with the xy cardioids. Or, like you said, just the xy cardioids. Which I'd, rather not do either, since all of them together do sound better than any other option.

I have checked in the multimeter in logic pro and the correlation meter and Goniometer don't show any phase issues. Like you said, maybe the stereo field isn't as wide but it's not a straight mono line in the Goniometer.

Edit: just saw your post Ray. I'm doing traditional solo classical guitar repertoire. ie: Romantic, Classical, Baroque, Modern, etc. The usual suspects - Tarrega, Sor, Barrios, Albeniz, Bach...
Old 17th April 2020
  #6
Gear Nut
 

Thanks Ray, I edited my post after I saw yours. This is just a quick fix for now. I want/need to make this setup work do the best recordings I can now. I'll eventually get another set of ribbons, and or better cardioids. I've had so many in the past that I've sold, I wish i had them all back now! Like I said I have a broken ribbon mic in my pair. So, this is what I have to work with with for this project and the immediate near future.
Old 18th April 2020
  #7
I'm recording myself playing the cello in a similar 'home' environment at the moment: I'm using a spaced pair, fairly close up. A good convolution reverb can work wonders.

I'm using two sE4400a LDCs in hyper-cardioid mode in a 24cm AB spacing, toed in slightly.

You'll have to forgive the playing (I'm doing these all in one take), but here is a sample:


Bach - Prelude from Suite Nº 1 in G major


All this to say, I don't think you're going to get a particularly 'spacious' sound with your setup - but I think I would follow the advice of others and try to create an M/S setup with the ribbon as the sides. Because the XY cards are coincident, you should be able to sum them to mono without any phase issues. You'll just have to be clever about which orientation you have the recorder and try and deal with reflections from the room as best you can.

No harm in experimenting!

Last edited by tenorfran; 18th April 2020 at 12:00 PM.. Reason: Typo
Old 18th April 2020
  #8
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for classical repertoire and when the guitar gets played as a solo instrument, i strongly recommend using a mono main mic but add a spaced pair of mics further back for some ambience (which might feed into an efx device but not to the main mix bus); i do however not like using ribbons much (due to their limited frequency response and pattern behaviour), especially when recording in a small room...

can't stand hearing rather small instruments (a guitar IS small by comparison) being pictured as wide as an orchestra and therefore mostly don't use stereo mics, unless it's an m/s pair (which can rend ambis useless).

x/y or ortf in this case don't do the trick either as they just widen the angle, add more voltage on the fader (than a single mic) and make the movement within the stereo soundfield more apparent, none of which is useful in this application.

get a (directional) condenser for main pickup and use filters built into your desk or daw, but not into your mic!
(for the sides in a m/s pair, a ribbon might do fine though)
Old 18th April 2020
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenorfran View Post
I'm recording myself playing the cello in a similar 'home' environment at the moment: I'm using a spaced pair, fairly close up. A good convolution reverb can work wonders.

I'm using two sE4400a LDCs in hyper-cardioid mode in a 24cm AB spacing, toed in slightly.

You'll have to forgive the playing (I'm doing these all in one take), but here is a sample:


Bach - Prelude from Suite Nº 1 in G major


All this to say, I don't think you're going to get a particularly 'spacious' sound with your setup - but I think I would follow the advice of others and try to create an M/S setup with the ribbon as the sides. Because the XY cards are coincident, you should be able to sum them to mono without any phase issues. You'll just have to be clever about which orientation you have the recorder and try and deal with reflections from the room as best you can.

No harm in experimenting!
Hope you don't mind a couple of comments re your cello recording. I thought the sound of your A string was a bit nasal. Is that the instrument, the string, or the mics? It could be all three I suppose but the mic may well be exaggerating it.To be even more cheeky but with the best intentions, maybe take a bit more time, especially on cadences?
Old 18th April 2020
  #10
Gear Nut
 

Thanks everyone. Here's a dumb(er) question. For MS experimenting: Can't I just split my xy recorder's interleaved stereo mic tracks to mono left and right in Logic Pro 9? It's being recorded as an interleaved stereo track on two logic inputs so there has to be left and right mono in there somewhere, right?

Then I can experiment with turning the xy recorder angle 45 degrees to my guitar so one of the mics is facing me straight on as the mid mic, correct? And, is there a way to just record this track in mono in Logic Pro 9?

Thanks again!
Old 18th April 2020
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choros View Post
Thanks everyone. Here's a dumb(er) question. For MS experimenting: Can't I just split my xy recorder's interleaved stereo mic tracks to mono left and right in Logic Pro 9? It's being recorded as an interleaved stereo track on two logic inputs so there has to be left and right mono in there somewhere, right?

Then I can experiment with turning the xy recorder angle 45 degrees to my guitar so one of the mics is facing me straight on as the mid mic, correct? And, is there a way to just record this track in mono in Logic Pro 9?

Thanks again!
As long as you can split a stereo track into two left/right mono's (easily done in Pro Tools), you can use one of your two mic's as the mono mid - just pick one of the two and angle it appropriately.
Old 18th April 2020
  #12
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post

x/y or ortf in this case don't do the trick either as they just widen the angle, add more voltage on the fader (than a single mic) and make the movement within the stereo soundfield more apparent, none of which is useful in this application.
Good points, but I disagree wrt x/y

Xy will narrow the stereo field and is quite good when summed to mono - it isn't particularly wide at all.

Ortof, on the other hand ...
Old 18th April 2020
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Good points, but I disagree wrt x/y

Xy will narrow the stereo field and is quite good when summed to mono - it isn't particularly wide at all.

Ortof, on the other hand ...
not really, they're about the same in terms of width but of course different in terms of mono-compatibility and phase integrity - but that wasn't my point, for two reasons:
- if needing a wider angle i suggest using a single mic with a wider pattern.
- the other thing is that i would want to avoid any movement within the stereo soundfield so none of said stereo systems does the trick; they are about equally good (or rather bad in this application).
Old 18th April 2020
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
As long as you can split a stereo track into two left/right mono's (easily done in Pro Tools), you can use one of your two mic's as the mono mid - just pick one of the two and angle it appropriately.
You can also convert your stereo track (either pure xy or xy plus blended centre ribbon mic) into mid-side, by using the free plugin Voxengo MSED:
https://www.voxengo.com/product/msed/

Some good tips on using MSED for this purpose here:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/ms-mastery

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nVMP36SlEHU
Old 18th April 2020
  #15
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
You can also convert your stereo track (either pure xy or xy plus blended centre ribbon mic) into mid-side, by using the free plugin Voxengo MSED:
https://www.voxengo.com/product/msed/
Thanks everyone! And, thanks studer, I'm going to research using the MS decoder in the Voxengo MSED.

If it's true that it'll enable me to use the stereo xy track, plus the mono ribbon track just like I'm doing now, and convert it into mid-side, that'll be great! Because I really do prefer the sound of the Ribbon as my main mic. Thanks!

I wonder if I can still experiment with the xy pair further back a foot or few from the Ribbon mic and still use the MS decoder without delay or phase isssues?

Last edited by choros; 18th April 2020 at 08:23 PM.. Reason: Clarity
Old 18th April 2020
  #16
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
You can also convert your stereo track (either pure xy or xy plus blended centre ribbon mic) into mid-side, by using the free plugin Voxengo MSED:
https://www.voxengo.com/product/msed/

Some good tips on using MSED for this purpose here:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/ms-mastery

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nVMP36SlEHU
Wow, studer, thanks! Voxengo MSED is pretty incredible if I'm even doing it right. I just inserted it on the Main Stereo Out of Logic Pro running it in INLINE Mode in the plugin. So, I have the mono ribbon track on one track and the xy cardioid stereo track on the their respective tracks in Logic Pro mixer. I just balance them to taste and use MSED on the Main Stereo Out. And, I'm getting incredible control over the stereo spread by adjusting the Side Gain knob higher than the Mid Gain Knob.

Important question - I have LiquidSonics Reverberate Convolusion Reverb on the main stereo output too. Do I run the Voxengo MSED before the Reverb or after? I'm thinking the Reverb goes last, correct?

Thanks again!
Old 19th April 2020
  #17
I record with three mics a lot, but for a slightly different reason. I use M/S on guitar and a figure eight on vocal. This gives me the ability to control the stereo image on guitar and balance vocals and guitar in live singer/songwriter style recordings. Two examples below, both of these tracks started with live recordings of guitar and vocal using three mics.

https://apricothill.bandcamp.com/track/garden-spell
https://apricothill.bandcamp.com/track/painted-blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by choros View Post
I can then adjust the mono middle track with the xy stereo track to taste? ... If I move the xy mics back further from the ribbon mic will that present more phase or stereo field issues? Will I have to compensate for any delays with only a foot or few feet difference?
M/S is better than XY if you want control over the stereo image. I've used Voxengo MSED, but a much better plugin is Goodhertz Midside. It has a much more intuitive interface than MSED and a ton of options for fine-tuning the image, width and balance between sides and mid.

Yes, there are phase issues with three mics. The M/S configuration takes care of itself but there is a tiny phase difference with the M/S and the figure 8. Since vocal is primary in my case, I make a few clicking souds at the start of each recording and use those to align the tracks in the DAW. Makes a big difference. I've done some recordings with no vocal and in that case I will still do a small re-alignment in the DAW.

.ant
Old 19th April 2020
  #18
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I reckon you could experiment with your reverb either before or after the Voxengo and go with which sounds best...and same with displacing your xy pair further back.

I don't know what result all this could be having on phase, so I'd strongly advise hitting the mono button on your final mix often, to see if material is nulling or dropping out of the mix. You could also consider running the MSED on the xy pair alone, as a bus or aux/sub mix, while leaving the mono ribbon untreated, and leaving MSED off the main stereo output.

If it sounds good it is good, particularly if you're not trying to replicate a 'guitar in a concert hall' sound...or if you plan to overdub additional instruments or voices later.
Old 24th April 2020
  #19
Gear Nut
 

Thanks, ant, studer and everyone! I really appreciate the help. I'm learning allot.

Actually, using MSED only on the XY track did seem to start working best for me - for the moment. So, thanks for the suggestion. Mixing in more of the side than mid, just for the stereo field/ambience, and using the ribbon mono track for my main tone/middle mic.

However, I can't stand not recording my classical guitar in simple stereo with two decent mics thru these good Metric Halo ULN-2 converters/pres, so I just ordered a matched pair of Line Audio CM4's thru J-P at No Hype Audio. They shipped today and should be here within a week, I hope!

Looking forward to getting and working with them! I had a pair of CM3's that I stupidly sold a few years ago. I'll report back and probably seek more help when I get them. Thanks again!
Old 24th April 2020
  #20
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by choros View Post
I just ordered a matched pair of Line Audio CM4's
Good move!

Here are the Line Audio CM4s in ORTF on duelling acoustics:

Old 25th April 2020
  #21
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenorfran View Post
I'm recording myself playing the cello in a similar 'home' environment at the moment: I'm using a spaced pair, fairly close up. A good convolution reverb can work wonders.

I'm using two sE4400a LDCs in hyper-cardioid mode in a 24cm AB spacing, toed in slightly.

You'll have to forgive the playing (I'm doing these all in one take), but here is a sample:


Bach - Prelude from Suite Nº 1 in G major
That sounds great to me, tenorflan, thanks! I plan on experimenting with the same(ish) AB spaced pair setup when I receive my Line Audio CM4's. And yes, a nice convolution reverb really seems to immerse and envelope the instrument tastefully like you've done. What reverb are you using?


Quote:
Originally Posted by antstudio View Post
I record with three mics a lot, but for a slightly different reason. I use M/S on guitar and a figure eight on vocal. This gives me the ability to control the stereo image on guitar and balance vocals and guitar in live singer/songwriter style recordings. Two examples below, both of these tracks started with live recordings of guitar and vocal using three mics.

https://apricothill.bandcamp.com/track/garden-spell
https://apricothill.bandcamp.com/track/painted-blue
.ant
Wow, beautiful songs, .ant! I loved them both. And, beautifully recorded. Thanks for sharing those - especially Garden Spell during this time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann View Post
Good move!

Here are the Line Audio CM4s in ORTF on duelling acoustics:

That sounds great, James. Really nice players and sweet, natural, acoustic steel string sound on that recording. Feels like I'm sitting in the audience there. I like it! What was the room like? Makes me more psyched and anxious to get my CM4's! Thanks!
Old 26th April 2020
  #22
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by antstudio View Post
I record with three mics a lot, but for a slightly different reason. I use M/S on guitar and a figure eight on vocal. This gives me the ability to control the stereo image on guitar and balance vocals and guitar in live singer/songwriter style recordings. Two examples below, both of these tracks started with live recordings of guitar and vocal using three mics.

https://apricothill.bandcamp.com/track/garden-spell
https://apricothill.bandcamp.com/track/painted-blue



M/S is better than XY if you want control over the stereo image. I've used Voxengo MSED, but a much better plugin is Goodhertz Midside. It has a much more intuitive interface than MSED and a ton of options for fine-tuning the image, width and balance between sides and mid.

Yes, there are phase issues with three mics. The M/S configuration takes care of itself but there is a tiny phase difference with the M/S and the figure 8. Since vocal is primary in my case, I make a few clicking souds at the start of each recording and use those to align the tracks in the DAW. Makes a big difference. I've done some recordings with no vocal and in that case I will still do a small re-alignment in the DAW.

.ant
Very nice work!
Old 27th April 2020
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antstudio View Post
I record with three mics a lot, but for a slightly different reason. I use M/S on guitar and a figure eight on vocal. This gives me the ability to control the stereo image on guitar and balance vocals and guitar in live singer/songwriter style recordings...
Ant: great job on these recordings and fine songs and performances too, BUT this is Gearslutz man - give us the deets on the mics and the recording chain!
Old 28th April 2020
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
Ant: great job on these recordings and fine songs and performances too, BUT this is Gearslutz man - give us the deets on the mics and the recording chain!
Thanks for asking. These are bedroom recording projects (room is treated). I use a Miktek C5 for the mid on guitar, an AKG c414 on the side mic (cardio) and another c414 in figure 8 on vocal. I typically record directly into my interface (Orion Studio) first, just focusing on a clean recording without clipping. I like to record the initial guitar and vocals together without click tracks or headphones, but I'll use headphones to layer in additional tracks.

Once I have all the tracks for the song recorded, I set up my analog chain with some default settings and mix into it, dialing in the analog chain as I go if needed. My analog chain is a Silver Bullet, Zulu, GML EQ, Hendyamps Michelangelo and A-Designs Nail Compressor. All the gear is centered on my desk, so I can clearly hear and tweak at the same time.

Once I like what I hear, I then print each track individually through that chain, making small tweaks to the chain per track and adjusting levels to get a clean signal and the right amount of preamp color and compression per track. After that I mix ITB.

..ant
Old 28th April 2020
  #25
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by antstudio View Post
Thanks for asking. These are bedroom recording projects (room is treated). I use a Miktek C5 for the mid on guitar, an AKG c414 on the side mic (cardio) and another c414 in figure 8 on vocal. I typically record directly into my interface (Orion Studio) first, just focusing on a clean recording without clipping. I like to record the initial guitar and vocals together without click tracks or headphones, but I'll use headphones to layer in additional tracks.

Once I have all the tracks for the song recorded, I set up my analog chain with some default settings and mix into it, dialing in the analog chain as I go if needed. My analog chain is a Silver Bullet, Zulu, GML EQ, Hendyamps Michelangelo and A-Designs Nail Compressor. All the gear is centered on my desk, so I can clearly hear and tweak at the same time.

Once I like what I hear, I then print each track individually through that chain, making small tweaks to the chain per track and adjusting levels to get a clean signal and the right amount of preamp color and compression per track. After that I mix ITB.

..ant
Nice! Not too many bother with the analog pass any more but you have some tasty gear there. I'm sure its a pleasure to tweak those knobs.
Old 1st May 2020
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
Hope you don't mind a couple of comments re your cello recording. I thought the sound of your A string was a bit nasal. Is that the instrument, the string, or the mics? It could be all three I suppose but the mic may well be exaggerating it.To be even more cheeky but with the best intentions, maybe take a bit more time, especially on cadences?
RE: the cello, it’s a cheap Chinese-made instrument, possibly in need of a new or different top string (the Larsen is proving a bit strident). I think the mic placement could be slightly lower as well, which I’ve since tried and works a bit better.

I’m going to take your comment about the style of the playing ‘under advisement’, as it were. It’s not relevant to the discussion at hand.
Old 1st May 2020
  #27
Thanks choros,

You asked about the reverb:

It’s the Waves IR convolution reverb, which I use for basically everything these days. Comes with a bucket load of rooms and I may record impulses for some of my local spaces at some point (after the UK COVID lockdown eases....)

I’ve actually got a pair of CM4s so I could conceivably do a shootout for you if that’s of interest...
Old 1st May 2020
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
You can also convert your stereo track (either pure xy or xy plus blended centre ribbon mic) into mid-side, by using the free plugin Voxengo MSED:
I saw that the OP is using Logic Pro X, which actually comes with its own similar plugin, the Direction Mixer. Works for MS decoding as well.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #29
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenorfran View Post
I'm recording myself playing the cello in a similar 'home' environment at the moment: I'm using a spaced pair, fairly close up. A good convolution reverb can work wonders.

I'm using two sE4400a LDCs in hyper-cardioid mode in a 24cm AB spacing, toed in slightly.

You'll have to forgive the playing (I'm doing these all in one take), but here is a sample:


Bach - Prelude from Suite Nº 1 in G major


All this to say, I don't think you're going to get a particularly 'spacious' sound with your setup - but I think I would follow the advice of others and try to create an M/S setup with the ribbon as the sides. Because the XY cards are coincident, you should be able to sum them to mono without any phase issues. You'll just have to be clever about which orientation you have the recorder and try and deal with reflections from the room as best you can.

No harm in experimenting!
Lovely playing!
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