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Old 26th April 2020
  #31
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingenus View Post
I think the lid of the piano should have been closed a position more. This is a modern concert grand piano with a volume 2 or 3 times greater as in Beethoven's time. The violin is still about the same.
Valid point...although I often find the effect of short stick is to make a darker, more shouty kind of sound, rather than the hoped-for volume reduction...and for that reason I tend to avoid it, and would rather move the piano back a little instead, to pull a bit of its 'focal foundation rug' out from underneath it, to some degree ?

Isn't there a case to be made for a short, medium and full stick (factory bolt-on or after-market spare part option)...or would such revisionism be considered sacrilege and a waste of time, this far into the instrument's evolution story ?

Failing that, baroque players are still able to source gut violin, cello strings, and polymeric equivalents... is there a retro/repro- Broadwood manufacturing company around...and if not, why not...we've been working around the absence of such an instrument for far too long ! I'm sure China could whip one up within a couple of months, at a fair price.

Last edited by studer58; 26th April 2020 at 05:57 AM..
Old 26th April 2020
  #32
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Valid point...although I often find the effect of short stick is to make a darker, more shouty kind of sound, rather than the hoped-for volume reduction...and for that reason I tend to avoid it, and would rather move the piano back a little instead, to pull a bit of its 'focal foundation rug' out from underneath it, to some degree ?

Isn't there a case to be made for a short, medium and full stick (factory bolt-on or after-market spare part option)...or would such revisionism be considered sacrilege and a waste of time, this far into the instrument's evolution story ?

Failing that, baroque players are still able to source gut violin, cello strings, and polymeric equivalents... is there a retro/repro- Broadwood manufacturing company around...and if not, why not...we've been working around the absence of such an instrument for far too long ! I'm sure China could whip one up within a couple of months, at a fair price.
Yes, the timbre can become a problem. But at Beethoven, it already is. Listen to the difference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOI9KK2eRWY
Old 26th April 2020
  #33
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingenus View Post
Yes, the timbre can become a problem. But at Beethoven, it already is. Listen to the difference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOI9KK2eRWY
There's quite a nimbleness of attack to the fortepiano, a bit harpsichord like. Certainly a very different instrument to the modern concert grand piano !
Old 26th April 2020
  #34
No need to go for the extreme as in that last version! (Unmusical as well).

I'm sure that Beethoven would have loved the Steinway Grand. All that is needed is a stronger violin sound and sensible balancing. This sonata works fine with the right players and a good recordist, not one with cloth ears!!
Old 26th April 2020
  #35
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
No need to go for the extreme as in that last version! (Unmusical as well).

I'm sure that Beethoven would have loved the Steinway Grand. All that is needed is a stronger violin sound and sensible balancing. This sonata works fine with the right players and a good recordist, not one with cloth ears!!
It is certainly your right not to like it, but it does tell clearly with which instruments Beethoven composed in his mind. The question is whether Beethoven would love that modern grand piano. If you listen carefully to the modern performance, you will hear that the sound of the violin and grand piano mixes a lot less well. Color and transparency (overtones) of the piano have been exchanged for volume. I think (as a professional musician) that this "authentic" performance is certainly just as musical, and better balanced than the criticized recording.
Old 26th April 2020
  #36
Old 27th April 2020
  #37
OAE
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingenus View Post
I think the lid of the piano should have been closed a position more. This is a modern concert grand piano with a volume 2 or 3 times greater as in Beethoven's time. The violin is still about the same.
Although I agree that difference is bigger in evolution of piano from that period, there have been also changes after Beethoven in violin setups that make quite a big difference.

Length and angle of neck, evolution of strings, chin and shoulder rests make all difference in volume (laters partly due the ergonomics).

Also modern bow was also developed by Tourte in the beginning of 19th century, but how much was Beethoven able to hear that time..
Old 27th April 2020
  #38
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OAE View Post
Although I agree that difference is bigger in evolution of piano from that period, there have been also changes after Beethoven in violin setups that make quite a big difference.

Length and angle of neck, evolution of strings, chin and shoulder rests make all difference in volume (laters partly due the ergonomics).

Also modern bow was also developed by Tourte in the beginning of 19th century, but how much was Beethoven able to hear that time..
That is certainly right.
Although Beethoven's deafness cannot be placed exactly in time, this sonata was published in 1798 during the early years of his success period. He was not deaf yet.

The violin is certainly also "enhanced in sound strength". A larger tone and more loudness of sound was most important in the period 1800-1940.
Fortunately it was not possible to build in a cast iron frame with thicker strings. Therefore, the violin still has a much more varied timbre than the modern piano.
Old 27th April 2020
  #39
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Very impressive !
Old 27th April 2020
  #40
Lives for gear
 
jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
Well, I liked the performers quite a lot. BUT, ruined by the recording engineer who got the balance totally wrong. i can hardly hear the violinist. I know this work extremely well as I've been playing it myself for decades (I won't say how many).

It is NOT a piano concerto with vague violin sounds but a DUO!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
As far as I know they'd likely have been using an AB pair (55cm) of KM183 omnis on a stereo bar, from a fixed suspension about 4 metres above the typical conductor's position. That would place the centre of the bar about level with that bright white vertical light reflection you see on the mid-curve of the piano. Hence the left hand (and wandering) image location of the violin.

I don't know, I find enough detail on the violin to have not required a spot mic, though it does meander in and out of focus a bit....ideally the players (and piano) could have moved to the right by 1.0-1.5 metres and that probably would have addressed your concerns, without recourse to a violin spot. What do other's think ?
A couple of years ago I had the opportunity to record a very famous American composer at the piano accompanied by a much younger violin virtuoso. The set up was very similar to the Adelaide duet that studer58 posted and the sonic results were similar too; the violin was almost lost in the forte passages. We were constrained by video requirements and could only use mics flown on a batten. The violinist also moved quite a bit and I suspect the composer, who is in his eighties, does not hear as well as he once did...in short, the balance was poor. The violinist remarked later, that he wished he had thought to bring his wireless DPA rig for the concert. I think deedeeyeah's mantra about spot mic-ing everything applies in this case. Sometimes room mics alone, even in a decent hall, just don't cut the mustard.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #41
Lives for gear
https://vimeo.com/413473156

May 1st, 2020
Lucy Stoddart - soprano
Jamie Cock - piano

Michael Head - A Green Cornfield
Bellini - Ma rendi pur contento
Schumann - Widmung
Schubert - Gretchen am Spinnrade
Schubert - An Die Musik
Liszt - Consolations 1-3 (piano solo)
Sondheim - Green Finch and Linnet Bird
Fauré - Après un rêve
Poulenc - Hôtel
Copeland - Pastorale
Lehmann - There Are Fairies At The Bottom Of Our Garden

Director - Stephen Whittington
Engineer - Sebastian Tomczak
Executive Producer - Martin Victory

Short video of Lucy chatting before the performance: https://vimeo.com/412995816

The concert series from this venue gives you a chance to compare the recording balance obtained from a variety of performers, with a unvarying miking array 55cm AB KM183 pair, 4m above 'typical conductor podium position, centre front of stage, with no spot miking.

Last edited by studer58; 4 weeks ago at 07:25 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #42
Lives for gear
Coming up this Friday, May 7, 2020...from same venue as post above....

Celia Craig - cor anglais, oboe
Michael Ierace - piano

Beethoven - Sonata Op. 17
Edward MacDowell - Woodland Sketches (selections)
Stuart Greenbaum - Sonata for Oboe and Piano

2020 is the 250th anniversary of Beethoven’s birth. Featured in this program is his Horn Sonata in F major Op. 17 transcribed for the cor anglais. Australian composer Stuart Greebaum’s melodic and evocative Sonata for Oboe and Piano was written for Celia Craig in 2015.

Livestreamed on the Elder Conservatorium Facebook page and simulcast to
arts.adelaide.edu.au/music/engage/concert-series
Old 2 weeks ago
  #43
Lives for gear
Violin and piano duo; Suite Italienne: Igor Stravinsky & Duo Sonata in A major, Op. 162: Franz Schubert

Program notes: http://arts.adelaide.edu.au/music/sy...%20Shamray.pdf

Concert video (Vimeo) : https://vimeo.com/418692828
Old 2 weeks ago
  #44
Gear Addict
 

Here’s one we did last night. Broadcasting from Facebook mostly but it simulcasts to YT for those fans of hers that don’t do FB.

https://youtu.be/eQEpdi2nzyc

It’s just a static balance (with headphones!) because it’s a livestream broadcast, but I multitracked so it can have a proper mix if we want to use any of the material for anything more....

Audio is handled by a sound devices mixpre10m. It’s a fantastic box. Mics are Klaus Heyne U67 on her, KM-A 184 on guitar, 47FET on bass and Klaus Heyne U87 on percussion. There are ecm50’s on the guitar and bass as well but you aren’t hearing them. They’re in the multitrack for safety but don’t appear to be required.
Old 6 days ago
  #45
Lives for gear
Here's a concert recorded an hour or so ago: Slava Grigoryan, guitar and his partner Sharon playing cello.

https://vimeo.com/423846994

Recital begins at around 9:55 on the play cursor.....

Sonata in A minor Antonio Vivaldi
I. Largo arr. Slava Grigoryan
II. Allegro
III. Largo
IV. Allegro

Café 1930 from Histoire du tango Astor Piazzolla

Spiegel im Spiegel Arvo Pärt
arr. Slava Grigoryan

Tanto Espaço Mário Laghina
arr. Slava Grigoryan

Reflexões No. 6 Jaime Zenamon
I. Fluido
II. Doloroso
III. Vivissimo

Julie - O Mark Summer
arr. Slava Grigoryan
Old 6 days ago
  #46
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Here's a concert recorded an hour or so ago: Slava Grigoryan, guitar and his partner Sharon playing cello.

https://vimeo.com/423846994
Very nice!
Old 4 days ago
  #47
Lives for gear
Horn players salute Beethoven: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DPazNS...ature=youtu.be
Old 3 days ago
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Totally brilliant !!! It cheered me up no end! Lovely humour too. Thanks for the link.
Topic:
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