The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
NOT joining the covid-via-internet craze!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1
Lives for gear
 

NOT joining the circumvent-covid19-crisis-via-internet craze!

many folks (for obious reasons) are currently trying to do some of their music-related work via internet - i don't...

...and because i mentioned this in another thread, my post got deleted, saying it wasn't in the 'spirit' of the thread?!? - well, of course it wasn't! but 'censoring' a different opinion and at the same time let go tons of conspiracy theory uncensonsered in other threads?! in fact, even one mod seems to have a heavy bias (not the the one who deleted my little post)...

...and i'd like to repeat the reason why:

to me, music is about a spontaneous commitment of a group of people in the same room at the same time! it can hardly get captured and even less get distributed without getting 'distorted'.
i'm way less interested in the technical side of things but all into becoming an invisible member of the ensemble - since i'm bad at telepathy, i rely on physical presence of both my gear and me.
i even prefer to hand over files on a hard drive at a caffè than beaming it through cyberspace!


what's your take on things? can you easily go through the score via skype? humm a short melody, discuss a phrasing, even talk about nuances in sound? - i can't!


___



p.s. i'm quite glad though my god-child can still take piano lessons online (and she seems to enjoy it - and be it only as a distraction)! the school however didn't manage to get things going within a week: i really wish they can fix this before they send everybody else home...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2
Lives for gear
 
jimjazzdad's Avatar
The title of your thread had me thinking some crazies were suggesting a COVID virus transmitted over the internet Thankfully, though computers can certainly catch 'viruses', there are no documented cases of machine-man transmission! (sorry Deedeeyeah, don't take that as a jab at your 'English as a second language' ability, which is very good, its just my attempt at some much-needed humour).

Anyway, I agree totally. Music is made best together. Communication, of which music is a sub-group, is always done best eye to eye. A friend and I do a weekly jazz show on our community radio station . Because of social distancing policies, we are pre-recording the show from our respective home studios. Its very awkward. I am looking at software to support over-the-internet audio collaboration but I'm not sure I have the bandwidth to support it...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3
Lives for gear
 

The internet is a communication tool that offers an extremely valuable and inexpensive link to the buyers of our performances. While it is certainly true that other methods exist to secure revenue none approach the efficiency of the internet. The performance skill to connect with an audience is always a factor in both live concert work and video production. Selling talent to prospective presenters via video dissemination on the internet or commercial TV has been the preferred method over the past 20 years. Given the fact our performance industry has been shut down world wide there has never been a better time to produce introductory video demonstrating skilled talent or new music ideas. The current shut down will not last forever and when the gigs come back there is no better way to get on the consider list than a teaser internet video introducing new talent or a new show.
Hugh
Old 2 weeks ago
  #4
Lives for gear
 

hm...

i'm not belitteling opportunities which come with newer technology (well, not really new: i've been into broadcasting for years) or that streaming etc. right now might be the only opportunity for some/many artists/teachers trying to keep in touch with their audience/students...

(in fact, i envy you to be able to get a thrill out of this! at least a little bit)

...but nothing comes close to punching in on a 2" tape machine across all drum tracks on an already brilliant performance! or the rush of adrenaline during count-in of the opening song when mixing foh at a festival, the eye-contact with musicians when mixing monitors at the side of the stage, the nodding of the conductor when fading out the click track, the tension in the air before the applause starts (or the silence if i'm thinking of the work of my wife who's a music therapist), the moment everything falls into place when bringing up the faders of the subgroups/vca's/dca's after hours of tweaking with the artists in the control room etc.

almost everything which made me start working in our business is related to some kind of mental and physical sensation while i was watching, hearing and feeling musicians as they were in the process of creating art!

THIS - at least for me - rarey translates to tape or harddisk or video uplink which at times is frustrating, especially when one cannot get things going, no matter how hard one tries or how much one is into zen...

tough times for cloud sliders and the road crew!



p.s. thx jim for the friendly reminder that i could use my time off to brush up my english and thx hugh to illustrate how the internet can get used to keep up good spirits!

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 2 weeks ago at 02:13 PM.. Reason: p.s. added
Old 2 weeks ago
  #5
For all we know this virus thing could be fake news or a giant hoax?!? To trump it all I got this straight from the horse's mouth ...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #6
Lives for gear
 

does humour belong in music? absolutely!
does sarcasm belong in crisis? absolutely!

nevertheless, i wish you'd stay more on topic of this thread: countless other threads have already been contaminated by the newflew19 (and even more dangerous) virus...

... or do i need to change the title of this thread?


EDIT: i did, at least the title of the op
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7
Lives for gear
 

The visceral pleasure deedeeyeah experiences in his daily work flow describes the joy I get when I can package a well captured multi-track audio capture with a two camera live music video shoot. We all have unique buttons to spin our ziz wheel: viva the difference.
Hugh
Old 2 weeks ago
  #8
Lives for gear
This is a very valuable and significant thread DDY, let's try to keep it on topic and not require moderation...and thank you for creating it

Of course a podcast, streaming, recording, video etc is a facsimile of the real thing...always has been a secondary adjunct to experiencing the real event live, at the venue it's being performed in. Amplification can be necessary, can intensify the experience for the audience when it's done intelligently and well....as you do DDY

Good analogy with team sports for fans: big screens, multiple miking and parabolic or shotguns, interviews with coaches, players, team managers etc. We have the technology to apparently recreate that at home on TV, use close ups to put the watcher in the middle of the game, drone shots of the stadium or swoop over the Tour de France.

Yet, ask the true sports fan if any of this enabling tech is a substitute for being at the event, surrounded by 50k-100k fans, with the noise, emotion, communality...being 'in the moment' ...'in the event' and most will opt for the event at the sports ground, if not every time then at least occasionally or regularly, as a top-up or reminder, of acknowledgement that the facsimile is a valid attempt to replicate.

The unamplified string quartet, solo violin or piano, orchestra plus conductor can move the audience sans technology, but most other manifestations require the addition of amplification technology. Like DDY I agree that this can act as a connecting conduit, put the listener/concert attender almost on the stage with the performer...intensifying the sense of communality when done really well.

Let's acknowledge the existence of the facsimile, but in these strange times...where even assembling an orchestra on stage is a clear and present danger to themselves, and impossible to obtain the 1-2 metres distancing necessary...the facsimile might be the next best approximation. Let's use the facsimile to keep the memory of the real event alive, so we can pick up where we left off when normality returns.

Interestingly, our state football teams have just days ago played each other in empty stadiums, televised live. The overall experience for TV viewers at home has been one of universal disconnection: the absence of the crowd roar especially, and the odd anomaly of nobody in the seating area to throw the ball back when it was kicked off the field. Strange times indeed.

Please don't lurch into the trench of triviality L_L...you have much to contribute to this thread, as a former professional player
Old 2 weeks ago
  #9
Lives for gear
Here's a peek at the situation from a professional musician's point of view: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...mDiVb_dZUAAipM
Old 2 weeks ago
  #10
Lives for gear
That's a great interview and perspective on the situation.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #11
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
That's a great interview and perspective on the situation.
yeah, Trucks is a really thoughtful guy, and a well-rounded human being...I think his closing statement nails the situation :

"Slowing down can actually be productive. Read a book, turn off your goddamn phone. We [Americans] can do this. I think we can, man. We’re a pretty resilient bunch when push comes to shove. We just have to turn down the selfish knob by about three points"
Old 2 weeks ago
  #12
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
does humour belong in music? absolutely!
does sarcasm belong in crisis? absolutely!
Damn, just reminded me...we were due to have Dweezil Zappa play here next month, on his 50th anniversary "Hot Rats" tour ! Add it to the re-scheduled list...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #13
Lives for gear
 

appreciate your posts - would be even more interested in YOUR take on things though and a bit less in touring logistics, killing spare time or igor levin's or dweezil zappa's plans... *

(sam set up a thread dealing with touring and gigging in times of covid19 in the live sound forum)

i'm wondering about the more subtle aspects such as whether an idea can get conveyed at all or if squeezing it into a box leads to an anemic shell/status of lost in translation/transmition



* indeed bad luck - hope you can catch him later!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #14
Lives for gear
Well you seem to be either wondering if music can be presented live without amplification or sophisticated mixing and still be engaging...or whether it can be captured and replayed via screen and speakers and translate the excitement and interplay of musicians involved in its creation ?

In other words, can it survive capture, encoding and decoding without damage to its essence or zeitgeist ?

We could let this serve as an example to discuss maybe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXUC...ature=youtu.be

Or maybe whether it can't be recorded by pulling the "band" apart, and doing individual overdubs to recreate the sense of the original, if the band can't be in one place :

https://youtu.be/ph1GU1qQ1zQ

The recording process revealed >>>
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7C6TlQC8Y8

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AR1x0v7n-4

We could investigate Gestalt musicology...at which point you'll have lost me, I'm afraid....

Last edited by studer58; 2 weeks ago at 12:32 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #15
Lives for gear
 

lol - besides my poor english, i assume you misread my posts on purpose? :-)

let me give it another try:

- is it possible to get a message across if the carrier is limited in some ways or damaged (meaning not working to full specs under any condition)?*
- how far can one strip down a recording/mix before it falls apart?
- how many subtle processes can get omitted before people lose interest (the artists, the techs, the audience)?

___


* as previously mentioned, i spent ca. 15 years assisting jürg jecklin - the technique he is known for first and foremost was an answer to the question:
- how does a mix survive fm modulation (as typically used for broadcasting back in the days)?
so essentially i'm asking the same question again, ca. 40 years later, under different conditions, both in terms of technology and circumstances...

...and my provisional assessment is quite clear:
besides the core 'message' which can get transmitted, the magic gets lost! - only if we use the best gear, technique and knowledge, if we put all of our efforts in it, then we get a minimal chance that once in a while, the magic - which mostly lasts just for a few (split) seconds - can get captured/transmitted.

i consider myself lucky that maybe once a year, i get to experience this kinda magic! right now, i'm having a hard time though: the magic is hiding somewhere... - how about you folks?



p.s. gestalt musicology and this new flew are 'kinderkram' by comparison: i survived working with stockhausen back in the nineties...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 2 weeks ago at 01:08 PM.. Reason: p.s. added
Old 2 weeks ago
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post

i consider myself lucky that maybe once a year, i get to experience this kinda magic! right now, i'm having a hard time though: the magic is hiding somewhere... - how about you folks?
Yes it does happen, maybe a bit more than once a year. So far this year a couple of times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
p.s. gestalt musicology and this new flew are 'kinderkram' by comparison: i survived working with stockhausen back in the nineties...
That was incredible survival - I would have been dead in 48 hours ...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
This is a very valuable and significant thread DDY, let's try to keep it on topic and not require moderation...and thank you for creating it

Please don't lurch into the trench of triviality L_L...you have much to contribute to this thread, as a former professional player
It wasn't triviality but humour, more of which we need to get through this end of the world scenario.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #18
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
Yes it does happen, maybe a bit more than once a year. So far this year a couple of times.
lucky you! can you track it down? - not the occasions but what do you think enabled the magic to appear?


Quote:
That was incredible survival - I would have been dead in 48 hours ...
the magic indeed was in the survival and less in the work/music... - tempi passati: his sons are much nicer to work with!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #19
Lives for gear
I'm not a fan of reductio ad absurdum argument...it leads down a garden path nowhere.

Are you saying that, because all of your expensive gear and skills are able to pull off the illusion of musical magic only very rarely, that because your work falls so far short of perfection, you're inclined to throw it all into Lake Geneva tomorrow ?
Are you not exaggerating the flaws in the chain ? Are you holding up an untenable ideal as your benchmark. Even the first wax cylinder recordings of Enrico Caruso produced a facsimile of his voice which pleased (if not fully convinced) the listeners.

Sounds like too many schnapps and a gloomy, rising hospitalization tally are swaying your judgement. The magic is there, but maybe you have to join a Skype ukelele 'virtual band' with your own instrument and talent and experience it first hand...and get used to taking your hands off the steering wheel and the faders.

Control is out of your hands..surrender to and enjoy it...the alternative is hi-stress and nervous breakdown.

Anyway I've clearly missed the geitzeist of your thesis, so I'll hand over to people more qualified...you seem to be describing something like William Basinski's "Disintegration Loops" :

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...****1/10631926
Old 2 weeks ago
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
lucky you! can you track it down? - not the occasions but what do you think enabled the magic to appear?
James Ehenes - violin, and Andrew Armstrong - piano
Live stream of three Beethoven sonatas from the Wigmore Hall. Magic from first to last note. Enabled by two superb musicians and good sound and video management.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #21
Lives for gear
There's nothing quite like skilled musicians feeding off each other in person.

But some great music has been made part by part, too. A friend has made a living doing voice over work in his home studio for 20-30 years before all this happened.

With all this "free" time, people need something constructive.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #22
Lives for gear
 

My peeps have no choice about this at the moment. They want to keep their momentum with the audience they've built over decades, and try to find creative solutions to this problem that might get them through the next year or so without disappearing. For them this is an existential problem.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #23
Lives for gear
 
tourtelot's Avatar
Yes, sad to agree that many of the community groups I work for will not survive even one half a year with no performances.

Not to say they won't come back in the future but it isn't over night that even a community ensemble can be rebuilt.

I believe that the damage and the changes will be substantial in our business, and it makes my heart ache.

D.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #24
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
My peeps have no choice about this at the moment. They want to keep their momentum with the audience they've built over decades, and try to find creative solutions to this problem that might get them through the next year or so without disappearing. For them this is an existential problem.
I do lots of work for and with an LA venue that's perfect for audience-free live-streaming. Everyone associated with the place is champing at the bit to dive in the moment it becomes permissible/appropriate/possible.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #25
Lives for gear
 

There are occasions when Obsessive - Compulsive Personality Disorder comes to mind as I peruse the contributions of some of our contributors. For many very good and understandable reasons recording protocols from 70 years ago featuring Nelson Riddle conducting a 40+ piece orchestra while Frank creates solid gold live recordings with his telly are gone forever. Or more recently big name pop bands holing up in a remote cabin in the Rockies for a week or more to "get the right vibe" for their next release: it aint happening today! Anyone that truly believes recording will return to this type of big "lets all get it together at the same time" session is delusional. Most all commercial music produced today, that is selling everything from cars to viagra, is midi generated with kit loops in very small project studios. Over the past 25 years rap has replaced the disco dance craze so we have morphed from John Travolta to sub culture pro mos. A real singer selling a great lyric is a very special occasion in todays pop music world: On the rare occasion when it does occur it is almost regarded as an act of God.

Today, in the Americana music world, project studios with world class digital processing are passing around stems for top session players to embellish a great Lyric that a lead singer has truly sold. Only after the vocal is finished can decisions be made pursuant to the personnel and amount of embellishment the recording requires. All it takes is either a guitar or piano and perhaps a kit loop to help the singer find their groove. I have been doing this type of layering for more than 15 years and it is far more efficient and quicker than the old "do it together as a band" analog days we were in 25 years ago.

I understand the current frustration with the massive world wide shut down of our industry and I too am concerned with how long it will take for this virus to run it's course. However it will end and when it does the folks that have used media to keep their skills in front of presenters and ticket buyers will be in the front of the line getting good gigs. I have a 180 degree opposite opinion from Tourtelot's post.
Hugh
Old 2 weeks ago
  #26
Lives for gear
 
64gtoboy's Avatar
While I do believe that I can be more inspired when playing in the same room with other musicians, I have found that collaborating over the net or by sharing sessions can also be inspiring, though to a lesser extant, due, (I think) in part at least, to the lack of immediacy.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #27
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

I've seen dropbox tracks work pretty well when it's one player at a time and everyone's communicating, and second attempts are part of the deal. But it's pretty normal these days to send a roadmap and a vocal to a bunch of players at the same time, get it all back, and try to make something out of it. Most of the time you can tell in the first ten seconds when a song's been done that way.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #28
Lives for gear
Well, I'm only 9 years behind the times. Here's a worldwide virtual choir from 2011 with an introduction by the conductor explaining how it began. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NENlXsW4pM
Old 2 weeks ago
  #29
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I'm not a fan of reductio ad absurdum argument...it leads down a garden path nowhere.

Are you saying that, because all of your expensive gear and skills are able to pull off the illusion of musical magic only very rarely, that because your work falls so far short of perfection, you're inclined to throw it all into Lake Geneva tomorrow ?
Are you not exaggerating the flaws in the chain ? Are you holding up an untenable ideal as your benchmark. Even the first wax cylinder recordings of Enrico Caruso produced a facsimile of his voice which pleased (if not fully convinced) the listeners.

Sounds like too many schnapps and a gloomy, rising hospitalization tally are swaying your judgement. The magic is there, but maybe you have to join a Skype ukelele 'virtual band' with your own instrument and talent and experience it first hand...and get used to taking your hands off the steering wheel and the faders.

Control is out of your hands..surrender to and enjoy it...the alternative is hi-stress and nervous breakdown.

Anyway I've clearly missed the geitzeist of your thesis, so I'll hand over to people more qualified...you seem to be describing something like William Basinski's "Disintegration Loops" :

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...****1/10631926
i'd like to get back to this i feel you're still interpreting me in a way i cannot agree:

when i said all the best gear and technique should be used, i didn't say it's gotta be all sanken, schoeps and sennheiser: no, even inexpensive beyer, line audio and rode mic let you achieve stellar results!
relatively inexpensive gear has become very good in the last ca. 20 years...

and when i said every effort should be made, i was talking about the technichian's work and of cause the musician's, conductor's, producer's contribution: all of them gotta shine! - good gear certainly helps: one of the 1st viloinists here in town gets to play a stradivari: i don't use a cheapish mic on her! and i bet they didn't use the most simple mic to record caruso either...

___


and as far as drinking schnaps at the lake geneva* is concerned: smoke on the water and all that we had 40 years ago - no anxiety disorder here either: besides working in music, i get to work for the osce and in areas of conflict or even war zones and hence i'm not much scared by what's happening now in terms of my personal health -
i do fear however that some of the unwanted side effects of the current measures to slow the spread of the newflew19 will be very negative - for this, we're even less prepared...




* i'm up further north: it's more about hoffmann's tales, hofman's drugs and new covid19 tests around here...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #30
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
There are occasions when Obsessive - Compulsive Personality Disorder comes to mind as I peruse the contributions of some of our contributors. For many very good and understandable reasons recording protocols from 70 years ago featuring Nelson Riddle conducting a 40+ piece orchestra while Frank creates solid gold live recordings with his telly are gone forever. Or more recently big name pop bands holing up in a remote cabin in the Rockies for a week or more to "get the right vibe" for their next release: it aint happening today! Anyone that truly believes recording will return to this type of big "lets all get it together at the same time" session is delusional. Most all commercial music produced today, that is selling everything from cars to viagra, is midi generated with kit loops in very small project studios. Over the past 25 years rap has replaced the disco dance craze so we have morphed from John Travolta to sub culture pro mos. A real singer selling a great lyric is a very special occasion in todays pop music world: On the rare occasion when it does occur it is almost regarded as an act of God.

Today, in the Americana music world, project studios with world class digital processing are passing around stems for top session players to embellish a great Lyric that a lead singer has truly sold. Only after the vocal is finished can decisions be made pursuant to the personnel and amount of embellishment the recording requires. All it takes is either a guitar or piano and perhaps a kit loop to help the singer find their groove. I have been doing this type of layering for more than 15 years and it is far more efficient and quicker than the old "do it together as a band" analog days we were in 25 years ago.

I understand the current frustration with the massive world wide shut down of our industry and I too am concerned with how long it will take for this virus to run it's course. However it will end and when it does the folks that have used media to keep their skills in front of presenters and ticket buyers will be in the front of the line getting good gigs. I have a 180 degree opposite opinion from Tourtelot's post.
Hugh
passing around stems etc.

for pop: maybe...
for classical music: i doubt it!

i'm simply not interested in this kinda work: imo making music is about human interaction on all different levels, some of which cannot get experienced if not playing together in the same room.

i agree thought that some/many/maybe most (younger) folks will think of 'the new normal' to be just one of many techniques and will not think twice when given the choice of whether to perform or not...
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump