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Learning a new skill while the virus blows over, perhaps...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
DaveyJones's Avatar
 

Learning a new skill while the virus blows over, perhaps...

Hi all,

So, with many recordings already being cancelled due to this virus, I'm thinking about nerding up on the technical aspects of recording video.

I've got lots of self-taught 'knowledge', anecdotal expertise and YouTube education but I want to solidify all that with some reference/technical published books that one might consider industry standard. I'm thinking along the lines of say, Bob Katz book on Mastering audio.

Specifically I'm interested in learning about frame rates and that sort of tech specs. The difference between 4K, HD, the difference between 'i' and 'p' and why it matters. The use of codecs, what does H.264 mean and other output formats...

I hope that all makes sense and yes I suppose this could, in the future, be used in conjunction with my audio work.


Thanks for the suggestions all, Dave
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
Lives for gear
 
jnorman's Avatar
Most of that kind of info is readily available in online articles. Frame rate is the number of still images the camera takes every second, like 30fps, etc. it also reflects the playback rate. 30fps is perhaps the most common. 60fps is used to capture motion more accurately and is not really needed for music performances or for most normal video work. 24fps is the most common for cinema because it tends to slightly blur motion in a pleasing manner, and because it has long been a standard in that industry.

4k is UHD and reflects the image size of each still frame - 3840x2160 is the normal resolution for 4k, which is about 8 mb per image.
HD means a resolution of either 1280x720 (the original HD), or 1920x1080 (full HD). 1920x1080 gives you about 2 mb per still frame/image, so it is about 1/4th the resolution of UHD. However, even a well processed 720p video can be quite good, though 1080p is the primary broadcast standard these days.

720i or 1080i indicates that the video display/broadcast includes “interlaced” frames, which means the image refresh rate is twice the frame rate, ie, a 30fps video is played/broadcast at 60fps where the “even” numbered scan lines are displayed first, and then the “odd” numbered scan lines. “P” stands for progressive frame fate, where both the odd and even scan lines are displayed/broadcast at the same time. However, nothing is interlaced these days, and only old gear shoots it. Do not use anything that only shoots interlaced video format.

There are tons of audio and video codecs now, along with an enormous number of “containers” such as mp4, mkv, mov, etc. and generally, the capture format is decided for you by the manufacturer of the camera you buy. For music video rendering, I use mkv, which is one of many types of mpeg4 video codecs, because it utilizes the highest quality audio codec (Dolby DTS) that I have found.

Good luck with your studying!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
Lives for gear
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
Lives for gear
^ I remember that one.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #5
Gear Maniac
 

Good plan to work on learning new skills. I just bought Pyramix Native Standard to learn about mixing for immersive - Dolby Atmos, MPEG-H. We are likely to be locked down for quite a while in London.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #6
Lives for gear
Was watching a BBC/Open University series about The Image last night
Edisons first KinetoScopes ran celluloid sprocket film @ 40 FPS in 1889!
They showed several clips, including the Butterfly Dance, featuring Annabelle Whitford Moore
This was 35mm, the standard for motion and still photography.
Also featured was Shackeltons cameraman Frank Hurley who pioneered photo composites and manipulation
His WW1 photo mural images are amazing.
The demo of overlaying images pre dated PhotoShop by a century.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7
Lives for gear
 

Brandon Li has a good tutorial on frame rates; I've watched a few different tutorials on this and I think his is one of the most practical and informative:

https://youtu.be/dR7B8uKc0JU

Unless you already have a camera picked out, one of the first things you should decide is whether you want a "video" camera or a cinema camera. They are very different beasts. A cinema camera is normally entirely manual, no auto anything, and no internal stabilization. They generally have the best image quality, although (with a few exceptions such as the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K) do not perform well in low-light conditions. They're made for shooting cinema in controlled lighting situations. The world of cinematography is very different from photography, even with different terminology (t-stops instead of f-stops, shutter angle instead of shutter speed, iris instead of aperture).

Then you have DSLRs and mirrorless cameras, as well as larger documentary-style or broadcast cameras. If you're going to be doing videos of music, especially under low-light conditions, these will usually be more practical (and affordable) than a cinema camera but it's going to be hard to duplicate the exquisite image quality and dynamic range that you can get from a cinema camera.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #8
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Was watching a BBC/Open University series about The Image last night
Edisons first KinetoScopes ran celluloid sprocket film @ 40 FPS in 1889!
They showed several clips, including the Butterfly Dance, featuring Annabelle Whitford Moore
This was 35mm, the standard for motion and still photography.
Also featured was Shackeltons cameraman Frank Hurley who pioneered photo composites and manipulation
His WW1 photo mural images are amazing.
The demo of overlaying images pre dated PhotoShop by a century.
From the USA, I've always envied you having the BBC.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #9
Lives for gear
Here is Frank and one of his composites.
Leni Riefenstahl was also featured.
For her Hitler Rally doco at Nuremberg ,The Triumph of the Will in '34, she had 34 cameraman and 4 sound trucks for over 4 days shooting.
A crew of 170.
A budget of $1.5m
60 hrs of film.
She was an actress, similar to Marlene Dietrich and arch rivals.
Attached Thumbnails
Learning a new skill while the virus blows over, perhaps...-a1528243h.jpg   Learning a new skill while the virus blows over, perhaps...-frankhurley_1110_04-e1478809132724-1.jpg  
Old 2 weeks ago
  #10
Gear Maniac
 
DaveyJones's Avatar
 

jnorman,
Thanks for writing all that. It confirms all I already know, as you say, from anecdotal internet browsing.

Does nobody have any official/published/technical guides, books or manuals that exist about this sort of thing?


Dave
Old 2 weeks ago
  #11
Lives for gear
I'm sure there are plenty of published resources on about every topic you can think of. This one is more general and deals with how you make choices to shoot something and a basic discussion of lighting. https://www.amazon.com/Cinematograph.../dp/0240812093 Mine is the 2002 edition. I don't know how much updated the more recent edition is on the questions you've asked about video.

You could probably find a used copy for a lot less, and there's enough content to learn something from.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #12
Lives for gear
 

There are good timeless books on principles of cinematography, video editing, etc., but when it comes to the technical side (codecs, etc.) everything goes out of date pretty quickly.

A lot of people who approach video from the technical side end up producing boring material because their focus is on the gear rather than the story or the artistic vision. So I do think it's a good idea to get a foundation in the basics of storytelling through video; even if you're not going to be shooting movies there's a lot to be learned from the classics. Here are a few suggestions:

The Lean Forward Moment: Create Compelling Stories for Film, TV, and the Web, by Norman Hollyn

In the Blink of an Eye Revised 2nd Edition, by Walter Murch (this is about video/film editing)

The Digital Filmmaking Handbook, 6th edition, by Sonja Schenk (not really a classic, but a good general technical introduction)

Also if you have access to Lynda.com (I think it's now called LinkedIn Learning), there should be a lot of good tutorial courses available there.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJones View Post
jnorman,
Thanks for writing all that. It confirms all I already know, as you say, from anecdotal internet browsing.

Does nobody have any official/published/technical guides, books or manuals that exist about this sort of thing?


Dave
https://mpeg.chiariglione.org

This covers a lot of ground...perhaps too much...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #14
Lives for gear
 

Multi-cam editing and timecode sync for me. Finally becoming productive now. What a PITA.

Color correction next, although since I have been using CineD, this is a lot less required.

Last edited by David Spearritt; 2 weeks ago at 01:38 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #15
Lives for gear
I am discovering the 4K abilities of my iPhone XS
Using the Sennheiser Memory Mic I can video very acceptable Pieces to Camera in all winds and weathers.
Stabilisation makes handheld look very steadicam , even for a senior operator!
UTube is full of such reports , many badly made, but useful content.
It would be useful for Music Masterclasses, this I might pursue, also Audio Histories.
Looks like my Music Festival might be cancelled this year.
Roger
Old 2 weeks ago
  #16
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJones View Post
[. . .] from anecdotal internet browsing.

Does nobody have any official/published/technical guides, books or manuals that exist about this sort of thing? [. . .]
The information you reference in your initial query is - I think - most accessible via Wikipedia.

I think less of 'books' as answers for those questions. I have several; but those of any value are far more in depth than anyone much - other than another software developer - would find useful. Really, truly, just rely on the Internet [Wikipedia, etc.] for that info.

However, there are some books I would recommend - though not directly on target for your request. Take a look at. . .

American Cinematographer Manual

Many very good books by Focal Press


You will doubtless find many videos, podcasts, etc. by professionals in the field quite useful. Here are a couple representative YouTube channels to get you started. . .

Indy Mogul
Luke Seerveld

Luke is a gaffer [lighting] which is a critical skillset you will likely need to build/understand. His channel may be helpful to help you gauge your growing knowledge of lighting gear and practices as he uses so much associated 'jargon' that professionals in the industry use. In the meantime, when he speaks a word or phrase you don't understand. . .likely often. . .go look it up.

You can get coaching from a number of sources to help you along with any of the many skillsets required. Glad to help if you need help running anything down in particular. Just call out.

Of course, nothing beats dedicated practice, study, research, and especially endless hours with your own gear and software [e.g., planning, filming, editing, composition, and effects programs].


Go get 'em,

Ray H.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #17
Lives for gear
If you want to venture outside familiarity zones (and if there's no catch to this !) there's a chance here to enrol in "450 free Ivy League university courses you can take online"

https://qz.com/1821327/450-free-ivy-...n-take-online/
Old 2 weeks ago
  #18
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
If you want to venture outside familiarity zones [. . .]
Over the past dozen years or more, I've taken countless university courses through Coursera, edX, etc. and direct offerings from Ivy League universities. And very many of these courses have helped me tremendously - to both gain knowledge and gain strength as a consultant in the marketplace [i.e., better serve clients and dramatically up my rates].

However, I've seen very few courses from such institutions that are effective in communicating the art and science of video production. So much of that seems better represented on YouTube and from more specialized organizations/tutors?


Be safe,

Ray H.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #19
California is closed but the desert and mountains are open. I'll enjoy Jeeping, rock crawling and target shooting this weekend.
Old 1 week ago
  #20
Lives for gear
 

It seems like there's an opportunity here: we have many highly experienced recording engineers with little to no work for the foreseeable future, and lots of hobbyists and students who would love an opportunity to learn from the best in the business. Seems to me that those of you with expertise and some patience and willingness to teach could offer to do one-on-one critiques of recordings, answer questions, or give individual coaching or training online via Skype or Zoom or Google Hangouts, etc., for an hourly rate.

All we need is a matchmaking platform where those offering lessons and critiques can be matched up with those looking for advice and instruction.
Old 1 week ago
  #21
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradh View Post
It seems like there's an opportunity here: we have many highly experienced recording engineers with little to no work for the foreseeable future, and lots of hobbyists and students who would love an opportunity to learn from the best in the business. Seems to me that those of you with expertise and some patience and willingness to teach could offer to do one-on-one critiques of recordings, answer questions, or give individual coaching or training online via Skype or Zoom or Google Hangouts, etc., for an hourly rate.

All we need is a matchmaking platform where those offering lessons and critiques can be matched up with those looking for advice and instruction.
It's a great idea, once the little hurdles of conferencing and webcam streaming are ironed out : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnZ_5cm5eXA
Old 1 week ago
  #22
Yes, but local private gun ranges here in California are closed. Texas remains open, for now. Do you still have your Swiss issued service rifle?
Old 1 week ago
  #23
Lives for gear
 

In a leap of faith 4 years ago I determined that any future deploying of my audio production skills would be tied to video production. There was, at that time, some excellent advice for a video novice by a few of the posters on these threads. So 4 years ago at 75 years of age I started out with a GH4 and an Atomos Ninja blade recorder along with the requisite ancillary gear including my most important purchase, a Lumix 12/35 2.8 lens.
It is very important to understand the powerful fundamental truth in bradh's comments concerning the critical nature of creative content. I knew I wanted to be able to video real time live performance of acoustic Americana ensembles. I knew I could provide much much better audio than most of the clips that were available at the time. Two years later it became clear that I needed to use a manned additional camera and recorder to follow the lead sequences as the arrangements dictated. (GH5 and Atomos Ninja V recorder and the additional ancillary gear were added) ) I totally understand David Spearritt's frustrations and comments pursuant to editing multiple camera work. I now have the original GH4 and Blade recorder set up with a Lumix 35/100 2.8 lens for a fixed shot of the total band that records from start to finish each set. I set up the GH5 rig with the 12/35 lens to follow the leads in the arrangements. A wonderful discovery in this process is the very capable video help my teen age grand sons are providing.
Moving away from the Pre. Pro NLE to davinci resolve was a real break thru however the increased demand of GPU was beyond the dell desk top I started with 4 years ago. The primary problem initially is planning in advance the project parameters, 1080p at 24 frames per sec., is my current preferred practice. Both of my camera rigs are 4K and or raw capable however the enhanced visual quality does not travel well to todays popular current download destinations: so there is no reason for me to work in higher quality protocols.
The good news is the primary LR audio mix I deliver to both of the camera recorders from my Digigrid/WavesLV1 mixer usually do not need to be replaced with a post production two mix from my S1 DAW. My mastered two mix is always better however the difference is not nearly as great as I initially expected it would be.

The most important advice I can offer is this: get a real good grip and understanding of exactly what you want to achieve, then work out how to do it. It truly is all about creating content that is well planned. Investment in gear will be necessary however the smart money will be spent on necessary gear for the real well thought out needs for your work.
Hugh

Last edited by hughshouse; 1 week ago at 01:31 AM..
Old 1 week ago
  #24
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradh View Post
It seems like there's an opportunity here: we have many highly experienced recording engineers with little to no work for the foreseeable future, and lots of hobbyists and students who would love an opportunity to learn from the best in the business.
That's what GS has always been.
Old 1 week ago
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
In a leap of faith 4 years ago I determined that any future deploying of my audio production skills would be tied to video production.
Great summary of the situation Hugh. Almost identical path for me too over the last 4 years, GH4, GH5S Atomos recorders timecode, multicam. The most lucrative and in demand work I get now are concert, audition, grant apps, education music videos with high quality audio. The usual pro video services don't do music audio well, and I am learning to try to do video well. But everything is YouTube now.

Fortunately I also have a day job.
Old 1 week ago
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
That's what GS has always been.
Not quite. People post things here for critique and get 18 wildly diverging opinions and contrary advice, frequently degenerating into arguments among the experts. What I'm talking about is experts offering their critiques and advice privately, for a fee, one on one.
Old 1 week ago
  #27
Lives for gear
I'm afraid there are going to be a lot of completely horrible college class videos coming out very soon containing about every technical mistake possible making the worst you tube videos look like hollywood productions by comparison.
Old 1 week ago
  #28
Lives for gear
I'm not seeing any latency here...but then it's more of a montage than a broadcast, by members of the Rotterdam Phil....and a big ask to get an entire orchestra synced up, instrument by instrument ! Click track in headphones/earbuds

Very inspiring, regardless: https://youtu.be/3eXT60rbBVk

Colorado Symphony too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p09hpKAv9Jc

Last edited by studer58; 1 week ago at 08:10 AM..
Old 1 week ago
  #29
Lives for gear
Strangely their pieces to camera sound much worse than the instruments
Perhaps the PTC on the phone and then the music on a proper mic and interface along with a click track.
Mammoth edit though.
Old 1 week ago
  #30
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Strangely their pieces to camera sound much worse than the instruments....
Welcome to the "small room effect"...we can also safely assume that a lot of the mics used (esp if embedded in the computers/iPads/phones) are electret omnis...probably with some sort of 'dynamic noise reduction' and 'auto gain levelling' employed too..to "increase intelligibility" !

It's amazing they sound even as good as they do, considering the assault-course the original signal has to stomach-crawl through...
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