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What do we do with titles that clash with modern sensibilities?
Old 1 week ago
  #1
What do we do with titles that clash with modern sensibilities?

I'd usually, and always have been, one of those people who'd swear that no namby-pamby neurotic anxiety of the Most Squeamish Amongst Us was ever going to cramp my style-- I mean, life is too short-- sometimes I wonder what I'll regret when I'm hanging with St. Peter on the cloud and looking down and he might casually ask me, "Well, you regret anything?" and I'll answer,

"I regret pulling my punches, keeping it to myself, refraining from saying just what I thought when I thought some one maybe might would be offended, y'know? Because however uncomfortable or a little tense or whatever things might get, there's a value in being honest, right? When you keep your mouth shut, you're not being honest. I wish I hadn't been such a scaredy cat."

Not sure how that lines up with song titles that are just too too, and look "insulting" to a modern eye-- THAT bothers me for sure. On the one hand my honest historical authenticity wants to just write the title as it is, but there's an equally competing impulse that tells me, "Sheesh, holy sheet, hombre-- there's something called progress, and there's something called our dismal racist past, and there's something called decency. You just write the title down and YOU are a part of that problem, comprende???"

https://clyp.it/1ttjcvwc
Old 1 week ago
  #2
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Track sounds good. And if the title makes you uncomfortable, swap in "gonad" or "testicle."
Old 1 week ago
  #3
Gear Nut
 
Uncle Russ's Avatar
Then it's probably good they didn't record "Ain't Gonna Give Nobody None Of My Jelly Roll"!
Old 1 week ago
  #4
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Say what you think and hang the consequences...or, if challenged on political correctness grounds, remind your accusers that they have failed to take 'context' (historical or other) into account.....there is still a place for hokum in this mixed-up shook-up world, to get your ya yas out and crave some pig meat: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokum

There might also be context pertaining where your ethnic or racial background affords or denies you expressive privilege to say what's on your mind: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2RZdg_DRXw8

I'm waiting for Joel to write his next blues song: "I woke up this mornin', and found myself woke..."

Last edited by studer58; 1 week ago at 11:56 PM..
Old 1 week ago
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Track sounds good. And if the title makes you uncomfortable, swap in "gonad" or "testicle."
LMAO.

On the topic itself, this is a jazz standard we're talking about. Renaming it is about as jazz as you can get, but it needs to at least keep the gist. You could just call it the Strutters Ball, everyone can strut.

Right now we're going through a phase of intense sensitivity and historical revisionism, for you as a performer it's important to connect with your audience rather than alienate them. What will come across to an audience is your intent, so if you are uncomfortable with or defensive of the title of a song that will come over, if you're just a good natured musician passing over the titles without even thinking about them or you're really not worried about the content then chances are the audience won't worry about it either, it'll not be highlighted for them. Trouble is at this point you've already thought about this stuff. Your call, but I'd make your own life as easy as possible.
Old 1 week ago
  #6
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
I submit that there is nothing sensible about modern sensibilities. Come to think of it, nothing modern either. Political correctness is nothing more than revising history to suit the present sensitivity. It seems we want to embrace the newspeak of Orwell's 1984...
Old 1 week ago
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
I submit that there is nothing sensible about modern sensibilities. Come to think of it, nothing modern either. Political correctness is nothing more than revising history to suit the present sensitivity. It seems we want to embrace the newspeak of Orwell's 1984...
I have a hard time believing that this is a “modern” phenomenon. I wasn’t around in centuries earlier than the 20th but I would very surprised if there wasn’t “politically correct” subjects and opinions back in time. It’s part of us being social beings - we have a need to fit into the herd.

And on another note: I also have a hard time understanding why it’s wrong to make some kind of effort to avoid saying things that are hurtful to fellow human beings. We are all in this together.
Old 1 week ago
  #8
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
I have a hard time believing that this is a “modern” phenomenon. I wasn’t around in centuries earlier than the 20th but I would very surprised if there wasn’t “politically correct” subjects and opinions back in time. It’s part of us being social beings - we have a need to fit into the herd.

And on another note: I also have a hard time understanding why it’s wrong to make some kind of effort to avoid saying things that are hurtful to fellow human beings. We are all in this together.
You are probably correct about political correctness. While I don't advocate saying hurtful things, glossing over the facts of history to suit 'modern sensitivities' is to obfuscate how things actually were and, in turn, belittle the progress towards making things better. In past centuries it was the norm to raise statues to 'great' leaders and 'victories'. Should we pull those statues down as we now understand the negative side of their achievements or leave them up and modify their meaning as a lesson about the follies of ambition, intolerance and war? How do we learn from our 'mistakes'? I don't know the answer; I'm just a privileged white guy with an opinion.

The term 'jazz' was probably coined by a white guy; Duke Ellington just called it 'Negro music'. Should we revert to that? The word 'Dixie' certainly has Confederate, white connotations; should we rename Dixieland music? I think it is more important to remember where we came from than to try to create a sanitized future - how else will we learn from our mistakes? Well, this is starting to verge on political...let's leave it at an acknowledgement that Darktown was an historical area of New Orleans, where much of jazz was born...New Orleans has given us so much...Dixieland, the Preservation Hall Jazz Band, Wynton Marsalis to name but a few. In my opinion, jazz is the greatest gift that America has given the world and I celebrate that gift when I listen to Darktown Strutters Ball, Mahogany Hall Stomp and many more. I hope this is not hurtful to anyone reading this.

Last edited by jimjazzdad; 1 week ago at 04:04 PM.. Reason: clarification.
Old 1 week ago
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
You are probably correct about political correctness. While I don't advocate saying hurtful things, glossing over the facts of history to suit 'modern sensitivities' is to obfuscate how things actually were and, in turn, belittle the progress towards making things better. In past centuries it was the norm to raise statues to 'great' leaders and 'victories'. Should we pull those statues down as we now understand the negative side of their achievements or leave them up and modify their meaning as a lesson about the follies of ambition, intolerance and war? How do we learn from our 'mistakes'? I don't know the answer; I'm just a privileged white guy with an opinion.

The term 'jazz' was probably coined by a white guy; Duke Ellington just called it 'Negro music'. Should we revert to that? The word 'Dixie' certainly has Confederate, white connotations; should we rename Dixieland music? I think it is more important to remember where we came from than to try to create a sanitized future - how else will we learn from our mistakes? Well, this is starting to verge on political...let's leave it at an acknowledgement that Darktown was an historical area of New Orleans, where much of jazz was born...New Orleans has given us so much...Dixieland, the Preservation Hall Jazz Band, Wynton Marsalis to name but a few. In my opinion, jazz is the greatest gift that America has given the world and I celebrate that gift when I listen to Darktown Strutters Ball, Mahogany Hall Stomp and many more. I hope this is not hurtful to anyone reading this.
Good points, well made
Old 1 week ago
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
You are probably correct about political correctness. While I don't advocate saying hurtful things, glossing over the facts of history to suit 'modern sensitivities' is to obfuscate how things actually were and, in turn, belittle the progress towards making things better.
So where do think we should draw the line...because we rcertainly can't have it both ways. It would be the height of hypocrisy and selfishness to cry political correctness when someone is offended by the things we say, or do.

Quote:
The term 'jazz' was probably coined by a white guy; Duke Ellington just called it 'Negro music'. Should we revert to that? The word 'Dixie' certainly has Confederate, white connotations; should we rename Dixieland music? I think it is more important to remember where we came from than to try to create a sanitized future - how else will we learn from our mistakes?
Wow....Duke Ellington neither coined the term and he certainly didn't he use it maliciously, and lets not forget that this was the "sanitized" version of the REAL name give to the music that was created by African American musicians back in that period.

It really sad that after all we know we're still debating why some things are not really cool...
Old 1 week ago
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
... lets not forget that this was the "sanitized" version of the REAL name give to the music that was created by African American musicians back in that period.
Right, and "African American" is both an attempt at an inoffensive alternate to "Negro" and a racial profile. We all have a picture in our minds of what an African American is. That picture isn't Charlize Theron, who happens to be one.

Point being, the rabbit hole of political correctness is bottomless. I'd rather not dive down it.
Old 1 week ago
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Right, and "African American" is both an attempt at an inoffensive alternate to "Negro" and a racial profile. We all have a picture in our minds of what an African American is. That picture isn't Charlize Theron, who happens to be one.
The term, African American was used purposely for emphasis

Quote:
Point being, the rabbit hole of political correctness is bottomless. I'd rather not dive down it.
I would be the last person to tell you what to do...I am however curious why its considered "politically correct" (which is pejorative to say the least) to use a non offensive term....
Old 1 week ago
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
The term, African American was used purposely for emphasis
Even the term is divisive...choose one or the other, brother. One denotes origin of ancestors, the other the present location of occupancy, when really all current residents of North America are Americans, then further categorised, if it's necessary, by ethnic origin. The fluidity of 'we're all Americans' vs 'we're all distinct tribes' is used selectively, to suit (generally political) ends

PS....of all the current threads in the Remote forum, this is one that really should be moved to somewhere more fitting, like Moan Zone or Audio Life ....it's got bugger-all to do with remote recording (at least the way it's currently devolving ?)
Old 1 week ago
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Even the term is divisive...choose one or the other, brother. One denotes origin of ancestors, the other the present location of occupancy, when really all current residents of North America are Americans, then further categorised, if it's necessary, by ethnic origin. The fluidity of 'we're all Americans' vs 'we're all distinct tribes' is used selectively, to suit (generally political) ends
A whole bunch of people decided that that's how they wanted to be addressed, go take it up with them.

Quote:
PS....of all the current threads in the Remote forum, this is one that really should be moved to somewhere more fitting, like Moan Zone or Audio Life ....it's got bugger-all to do with remote recording (at least the way it's currently devolving ?)
Take this up with the OP and the mods....just remember that you were/are an active participant and NONE of your comments have anything to do with remote recording.
Old 1 week ago
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
A whole bunch of people decided that that's how they wanted to be addressed, go take it up with them.
I already did, asked each of them personally, they are unhappy with how it's all panned out.
Old 1 week ago
  #16
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Joel, what are you trying to say? Speak your mind...

One of mine:

Old 1 week ago
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
You are probably correct about political correctness. While I don't advocate saying hurtful things, glossing over the facts of history to suit 'modern sensitivities' is to obfuscate how things actually were and, in turn, belittle the progress towards making things better. In past centuries it was the norm to raise statues to 'great' leaders and 'victories'. Should we pull those statues down as we now understand the negative side of their achievements or leave them up and modify their meaning as a lesson about the follies of ambition, intolerance and war? How do we learn from our 'mistakes'? I don't know the answer; I'm just a privileged white guy with an opinion.

The term 'jazz' was probably coined by a white guy; Duke Ellington just called it 'Negro music'. Should we revert to that? The word 'Dixie' certainly has Confederate, white connotations; should we rename Dixieland music? I think it is more important to remember where we came from than to try to create a sanitized future - how else will we learn from our mistakes? Well, this is starting to verge on political...let's leave it at an acknowledgement that Darktown was an historical area of New Orleans, where much of jazz was born...New Orleans has given us so much...Dixieland, the Preservation Hall Jazz Band, Wynton Marsalis to name but a few. In my opinion, jazz is the greatest gift that America has given the world and I celebrate that gift when I listen to Darktown Strutters Ball, Mahogany Hall Stomp and many more. I hope this is not hurtful to anyone reading this.
Duke Ellington was at my house as a kid. He used the word Jazz and Swing then, but this was late 60's.

My father was a Big band leader, he called it Swing. Jazz was a term confined to bands smaller than 12 pieces. At 18 pieces you have a big band and Swing.
Old 1 week ago
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I already did, asked each of them personally, they are unhappy with how it's all panned out.
So which date is the march planned for and what's the new name?
Old 1 week ago
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
Duke Ellington was at my house as a kid. He used the word Jazz and Swing then, but this was late 60's.

My father was a Big band leader, he called it Swing. Jazz was a term confined to bands smaller than 12 pieces. At 18 pieces you have a big band and Swing.
I think that Duke Ellington was the classiest guy in Jazz; I doubt he would ever have used words in a way to hurt or offend. My point was that in the '20s Jazz was a new term that some etymologist believe came from baseball...in any case it was certainly not a term coined by the jazz men themselves. I always taught my kids that there are no bad words, just bad ways to use them.

(Very cool that the Duke came to your house, BTW)
Old 6 days ago
  #20
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
My father was a Big band leader, he called it Swing.
You drew more people with "swing" than with "jazz." Women especially. That's why there's the "D" in "EDM."
Old 6 days ago
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
I submit that there is nothing sensible about modern sensibilities. Come to think of it, nothing modern either. Political correctness is nothing more than revising history to suit the present sensitivity. It seems we want to embrace the newspeak of Orwell's 1984...
Damn straight - they own the words we must use as a way of controlling what we're allowed to actually say - for example "immigrant" has now become "migrant" because migration sounds non-threatening and natural - birds migrate. Illegal immigrants (criminals by definition) are now fluffy "undocumented persons".

*warning, rant mode* as this appears to be a kind of political thread!

As for song lyrics - don't get me started on that! - certain people are allowed to use certain words and others hanged and quartered if they dare use the exact same words - that's called discrimination folks - the new equality. But there are a lot of useful idiots in the music world which swallow all this culturally Marxist nonsense, WHICH IS DESIGNED TO DIVIDE US - when music should be about bringing people together. The left are obsessed with creating more and more ways of dividing us to fuel their grievance industry - now there are a billion genders - at the same time accusing conservatives of being prejudiced - it's not the centre right stoking up hatred over identity politics... Someone beam me up from this madness!
Old 6 days ago
  #22
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Yes, everything I don't like is idiotic and bad......for everybody else.
Old 6 days ago
  #23
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To address the original post...
You could suggest that the artist use the title “Strutter’s Ball”.
If they want to use the full title, that’s on them not you. You could indicate your discomfort with the title, and/or you can tell them you feel so strongly about this that you won’t work with them in the future. I don’t think it is ethical to sabotage or delay their product for this concern.
This isn’t quite on the level of finding out you have made a commercial for the KKK. Well, it might be for some.

And renaming things doesn’t necessarily salvage them. The evolution and demise of Sambo’s coffee shops is educational in this regard.
Old 6 days ago
  #24
ccg
Gear Addict
 

I'm going to suggest something different. Treat the offending part of the title like a swear word that you wouldn't normally spell out. By doing this you keep the original title -- it is a standard after all -- and you acknowledge the fact that it isn't a particularly friendly term.
Old 6 days ago
  #25
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I'd like to invite Randy Newman to contribute to this thread
Old 6 days ago
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
I think that Duke Ellington was the classiest guy in Jazz; I doubt he would ever have used words in a way to hurt or offend. My point was that in the '20s Jazz was a new term that some etymologist believe came from baseball...in any case it was certainly not a term coined by the jazz men themselves. I always taught my kids that there are no bad words, just bad ways to use them.

(Very cool that the Duke came to your house, BTW)

Thanks for that. I only met him twice, the first time I don't remember at all, but it's one on the common stories in the family.

He came over to the house. The house had a split level entry. He went up instead of down. Found me at one year old in a crib, picked me up, and carried me around the house for a while saying "It's a baby!"
Old 6 days ago
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I'd like to invite Randy Newman to contribute to this thread
Or any thread.

I always enjoy hearing “I Love LA” after the last out at Dodger Stadium... live or on TV.
Old 6 days ago
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Or any thread.

I always enjoy hearing “I Love LA” after the last out at Dodger Stadium... live or on TV.
I was thinking more like this vintage of Newman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTLHxpUQ_B8
(I don't know about the razor blade top end of this 'remastering' however..sheesh !)

or perhaps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO3-MukCYVU

According to Greil Marcus, Newman introduced the latter song to a concert audience thus: "This is not Leonard Cohen's 'Suzanne'. It's on a somewhat lower moral plane, actually"
Old 5 days ago
  #29
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Ahh, THAT Newman song.
Listening to it, I’m puzzled that it isn’t the incumbent’s campaign song. It even presciently mentions putting people in cages.
I also see a fitting use for a line quoted in the above post.
“The Lower Moral Plane” could replace “Airforce One”.
Notice that even way back when, Neumann did not use the refrain as the song title.
Old 5 days ago
  #30
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Talking of 'cultural marxism' we still have Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony.
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