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Recording Orchestra: chosing mics
Old 1 week ago
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
"doesn't the front truss have motors and can get lowered? then flying the mics becomes MUCH more easy."

I want to see this conversation between the LD (who has already focused his lights) and the recordist asking him to lower the truss. That is why the term ROFL was invented.

D.
guess you haven't been working on larger productions for some time? these fights are long gone (or then the production manager immediately gets replaced):

things get carefully co-ordinated and all power, audio, video, light and decoration goes up together (if it 'lives' on the same truss) or goes up in a specific running order (if on separate trusses to make way for each other).

also, when gear gets mounted on a moveable truss, it gets fixed and secured so it stays in place when raising or lowering the truss; plus lights are way less critical than video (if using multiple beamers for a large screen but video mostly goes on separate trusses anyway) so there should be no problem getting a lightweight mic system on a rig: in any reputable venue, basic adjustment of gear to fit the production as needed and a few other services are included in the the rental price, at least around here (old world).

[in live sound, it's true though that as an audiot, you better hurry up as there are mostly way more lighties working on setup who will beat you up if you're not ready by the time they got their gear going and if not absolutely necessary, what goes up stays up]
Old 1 week ago
  #62
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by elacarcel View Post
I know it was your advice. But I really didn’t understand what you mean with 1/3 and 2/3. Would you be so kind to mark in one of the pictures I posted where the mics should be?? Thank you very much
The main pair goes up in the centre of the ensemble, at 1/2 the ensemble width, directly behind the conductor. Now divide the entire width of the stage, as occupied by the musicians, from left to right. At 1/3 of the ensemble width, as measured from the outermost musician on the left side, place your first outrigger mic. At 2/3 of the ensemble width, as measured from the left side, place your second outrigger mic. Your starting point will be equal height of both stands with the main pair.

If you get a chance to experiment with height during balance check, lift these 2 outriggers up or down a little until you get a nice balance of presence and air of the instruments close to them, and also change angles inward/outward/up/down to obtain this. Then lock them in place.

During mix time, bring up the level of the outriggers just enough to give a small sense of widening of the orchestra (compared with the centre pair(s) ....it should be barely perceptible, just a slightly thicker and richer sound than the main pair alone)
Attached Thumbnails
Recording Orchestra: chosing mics-concert-pic-outriggers-one-third-two-third.jpg  
Old 1 week ago
  #63
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
[in live sound, it's true though that as an audiot, you better hurry up as there are mostly way more lighties working on setup who will beat you up if you're not ready by the time they got their gear going and if not absolutely necessary, what goes up stays up]
In this case however, it sounds like it might be the OP's first venture into recording in such a location....please don't suggest such tactics which might be well out of his his experience zone, and get him into needless arguments and hot water with other professionals at the venue, ok DDY ?

Imagine you have never worked on the internal engine mechanicals of your car, apart from changing the oil...and I hand you a few new pistons and valves and gaskets, plus an exploded schematic of your engine...and tell you to go ahead, it's easy, routine, mechanics do this every day...etc etc.

Context DDY, context...plus experience !
Old 1 week ago
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
In this case however, it sounds like it might be the OP's first venture into recording in such a location....please don't suggest such tactics which might be well out of his his experience zone, and get him into needless arguments and hot water with other professionals at the venue, ok DDY ?

Imagine you have never worked on the internal engine mechanicals of your car, apart from changing the oil...and I hand you a few new pistons and valves and gaskets, plus an exploded schematic of your engine...and tell you to go ahead, it's easy, routine, mechanics do this every day...etc etc.

Context DDY, context...plus experience !
your comparison imo is pointless and i'm not trying to send the op into the line of fire, on the contrary - here's the context:

it is my experience that most any venue housing classical concerts has very friendly staff, trying to help their clients in every way they can (as long as one is not asking for silly working hours or services which are beyond their scope).
the reasons i was suggesting to check into possibilities about flying the mic system are:
- options can mostly get sorted out by a phone call.
- setting up the mic system could maybe get done ahead of rehearsals.
- with some luck, staff will even do it: i regularly drop some gear (mostly mics, mic bars, clamps, cables) at venues ahead of production so upon arrival, my fly mics are already in place and plugged into the house patch; there mostly ain't any discussion about trim height of the rig anymore either.
- from looking at the pics, this could get the mics into an ideal position and make a large mic stand unnecessary, on a stage which looks very tightly packed (at least on the pics).

advancing the gig (regardless of genre) is crucial; with classical music, sorting out technical aspects is mostly a very modest task compared to live sr (where the tone can get a bit rough...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The main pair goes up in the centre of the ensemble, at 1/2 the ensemble width, directly behind the conductor. Now divide the entire width of the stage, as occupied by the musicians, from left to right. At 1/3 of the ensemble width, as measured from the outermost musician on the left side, place your first outrigger mic. At 2/3 of the ensemble width, as measured from the left side, place your second outrigger mic. (...)
for once, i fully agree with (parts of) your post and the help you've given the op - let me add another detail (although this stems from live sound and is not aiming at unexprienced engineers either):

any physical offset/distance between mics from a spaced array does lead to some amount of phase cancellation between mics - with the distance well chosen, one can mitigate some of the issues by factoring in at which frequency the largest phase offset will occur.

i use this to my advantage when recording in halls which are a bit 'boomy' in a specific frequeny range - doesn't even require a measuring rig to get clear improvements and helps to cut down on the use of eq and allpass filters during mixing!

jnorman suggested using hpf's on ouriggers (in another recent thread), i prefer choosing distance between mics according to frequency of max. phase cancellation - i then may still add hpf's for further attenuation.

___


so yeah, context matters! maybe worth noting though that there is a lot to get experienced, learned, adopted and transferred from other areas of our business, aspects which may not seem obvious at first glance or one cannot know of if not having worked in vastly different production environments - ime many classical 'engineers' are a bit removed from what's happening out there in the wide world and not much aware of some technical advancements outside their core (and often only) business...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 1 week ago at 01:40 PM.. Reason: edited twice
Old 1 week ago
  #65
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The main pair goes up in the centre of the ensemble, at 1/2 the ensemble width, directly behind the conductor. Now divide the entire width of the stage, as occupied by the musicians, from left to right. At 1/3 of the ensemble width, as measured from the outermost musician on the left side, place your first outrigger mic. At 2/3 of the ensemble width, as measured from the left side, place your second outrigger mic. Your starting point will be equal height of both stands with the main pair.

If you get a chance to experiment with height during balance check, lift these 2 outriggers up or down a little until you get a nice balance of presence and air of the instruments close to them, and also change angles inward/outward/up/down to obtain this. Then lock them in place.

During mix time, bring up the level of the outriggers just enough to give a small sense of widening of the orchestra (compared with the centre pair(s) ....it should be barely perceptible, just a slightly thicker and richer sound than the main pair alone)

Now, I understood it. Just a question: The center mics should be in the same line than the flankers or a little bit more advanced?

This will be exactly what I'm going to do. Thank you , sincerely, for your help. Can't wait to record it and share it with you guys!


BEST
Old 1 week ago
  #66
Lives for gear
same line, keep it simple...unless your listening during balance check/rehearsal tells you different ?
Old 1 week ago
  #67
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
your comparison imo is pointless and i'm not trying to send the op into the line of fire, on the contrary - here's the context:

it is my experience that most any venue housing classical concerts has very friendly staff, trying to help their clients in every way they can (as long as one is not asking for silly working hours or services which are beyond their scope).
the reasons i was suggesting to check into possibilities about flying the mic system are:
- options can mostly get sorted out by a phone call.
- setting up the mic system could maybe get done ahead of rehearsals.
- with some luck, staff will even do it: i regularly drop some gear (mostly mics, mic bars, clamps, cables) at venues ahead of production so upon arrival, my fly mics are already in place and plugged into the house patch; there mostly ain't any discussion about trim height of the rig anymore either.
- from looking at the pics, this could get the mics into an ideal position and make a large mic stand unnecessary, on a stage which looks very tightly packed (at least on the pics).

advancing the gig (regardless of genre) is crucial; with classical music, sorting out technical aspects is mostly a very modest task compared to live sr (where the tone can get a bit rough...)



for once, i fully agree with (parts of) your post and the help you've given the op - let me add another detail (although this stems from live sound and is not aiming at unexprienced engineers either):

any physical offset/distance between mics from a spaced array does lead to some amount of phase cancellation between mics - with the distance well chosen, one can mitigate some of the issues by factoring in at which frequency the largest phase offset will occur.

i use this to my advantage when recording in halls which are a bit 'boomy' in a specific frequeny range - doesn't even require a measuring rig to get clear improvements and helps to cut down on the use of eq and allpass filters during mixing!

jnorman suggested using hpf's on ouriggers (in another recent thread), i prefer choosing distance between mics according to frequency of max. phase cancellation - i then may still add hpf's for further attenuation.

___


so yeah, context matters! maybe worth noting though that there is a lot to get experienced, learned, adopted and transferred from other areas of our business, aspects which may not seem obvious at first glance or one cannot know of if not having worked in vastly different production environments - ime many classical 'engineers' are a bit removed from what's happening out there in the wide world and not much aware of some technical advancements outside their core (and often only) business...
All you're really telling me and other readers here is that you have vast experience in all matters of simple to complex staged events, incorporating high profile performers with large miking requirements and often PA involved also, not to mention TV and radio broadcast...so you naturally have the confidence to interact with fellow professionals (lighting, projection, perhaps also choreographers and others associated with such events). We know that...already, over and over...but don't stop repeating, in case we forget.

At least, if you're going to be of assistance to the OP, recognize how far you have come along that learning and experience path, over several decades and multiple diverse setups ..and I'm sure you've never made a single mistake in all that time either ?

If you're going to be a helpful pedagogue to him, just recognize the distance you have travelled compared with him, and don't set him up for failure with a flippant statement such as "just do this...like I do" He has a lot on his hands already....any beginner needs success, not complexity.
Old 1 week ago
  #68
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
All you're really telling me and other readers here is that you have vast experience in all matters of simple to complex staged events, incorporating high profile performers with large miking requirements and often PA involved also, not to mention TV and radio broadcast...so you naturally have the confidence to interact with fellow professionals (lighting, projection, perhaps also choreographers and others associated with such events). We know that...already, over and over...but don't stop repeating, in case we forget.

At least, if you're going to be of assistance to the OP, recognize how far you have come along that learning and experience path, over several decades and multiple diverse setups ..and I'm sure you've never made a single mistake in all that time either ?

If you're going to be a helpful pedagogue to him, just recognize the distance you have travelled compared with him, and don't set him up for failure with a flippant statement such as "just do this...like I do" He has a lot on his hands already....any beginner needs success, not complexity.
you're making (again) a few assumptions and insinuations i cannot agree on and i get the impression you (repeatedly) misread or misinterpret me on purpose:

i'm not boasting i'm the smartest guy in town nor do i pretend i never made or make any mistakes, i'm not dogmatic about any approaches, technique and gear choices (although i of course have my personal favourites too and keep repeating them so folks can see that there are always different ways to skin the cat) but i do not tell people what to do or not to do!

it is true though that i got pretty a vast experience in more than one area, possibly a bit more broad than some other folks participating in this forum. - i am deeply convinced that sharing as much information as as possible helps people to let them make choices: freedom (of choice) comes at a cost, in our case finding out what might work best for this specific situation - simplification and not even considering all options however imo often leads not only to compromise proceedings but also results.

in this thread, i replied to a comment which i think simply does not reflect the current state of affairs of flying rigs, to weight up against someone else's view on things and which attempted to belittle my experience acquired in an other field.

making a phone call to find out whether a truss can get lowered imo is not adding another level of complexity, on the contrary! if it can, it might lower the workload on the day of rehearsal/concert and let the op focus on his work! positioning the mics out of sightlines and not on stands is certainly an advantage in many circumstances; suggesting optimum mic positions imo is a noble goal - yes, in the op's case, it'd come at a price too: long cable runs and possibly using a lift for adjusting mic positions.

can't help if this above the threshold of pain for you! if so, our mileage indeed varies - a lot! (as i suspect from a multitude of your comments and occasional attacks)
Old 1 week ago
  #69
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
...in this thread, i replied to a comment which i think simply does not reflect the current state of affairs of flying rigs, to weight up against someone else's view on things and which attempted to belittle my experience acquired in an other field...
I don't think anyone is belittling your experience - simply pointing out that live recording challenges differ significantly from country to country, continent to continent. I know that dealing with unionized stage hands in Canada is done 'wearing kid gloves'. Simply lowering a stage batten to rig up mics would be a diplomatic challenge for any engineer not associated with the house. In other non-union venues, I have been given the run of the catwalks. I'm sure its different again in studer58's Australia. It appears that the OP may be from Spain, so your experience may be more applicable for him... I think its important for we 'advisors' to remember that he is attempting a live classical recording for the first time and flying mics probably only adds complexity unnecessarily. As we say on this side of the pond: "KISS - Keep It Stupid Simple".
Old 1 week ago
  #70
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Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elacarcel View Post
Its a multi-purpose hall with not bad sound. Im posting two pictures of it so you have an idea of everything. That set up has different instruments than the one we will have for my work (basically mine doesn't have harp or bass drum), but you have a pretty good idea of it. As you can see in the picture there is almost not room for placing the mics behind the conductor. When i have recorded this orchestra in the past I use to place them right in the edge of the stage since placing them down is not an option (the mic stands would be too low). I got an extensions for my mic stands and now i will be able to reach 3 with them (around 10 feet).

Maybe im asking too much but, could anyone give me their opinion about placing the four mics according to the picture? (You might even draw it on it so I understand perfectly what you mean). I know I should hire someone for this but I have no budget and since I have some previous experience I find it also very stimulating for me to record my own piece.

The rental company, as I said in a previous post, just have two Schoeps mk5 that I will use as main pair in the centre in ortf. My doubt is the other pair: placing them and what type: I can rent the AKG 414 u-bls and set them up in omni OR rent a pair of neumann km184 and used them as main pair in ORTF and use the schoeps in omni in other placement.

The concert will be february 23d. What I'm going to record is actually the rehearsal (unless we run out of time, Then I would record also the concert).

Thank you so much for your help. I promise I will share with you the recording once it's done!
Stage is small. Record the whole thing with two mics in ORTF on a stereo bar on a stand. Call it a day.
Or use a stereo bar and switch your MK5 mics to omni. Space at 67 cm, 10 feet high. Call it a day.
Old 1 week ago
  #71
Lives for gear
Coincidentally I just recorded an orchestra (plus choir plus vocal soloists) with a similar setup - km184s in XY with schoeps omni flanks. Would’ve used the schoeps as AB mains but there were soloists stood in line with the mains and I find that, with spaced mains, it comes out very strange when the singer moves or turns. Coincident mains’ image stays more solid in this situation. Lesson learnt hard way a while ago. Choir behind was Oktava hypercardioids XY and TLM193/170 flanks. All came out good enough.

Last edited by Oli_W; 1 week ago at 12:03 AM.. Reason: Needed to put the unintended pun in bold.
Old 1 week ago
  #72
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Regarding rigging and flying mics.
I would NEVER suggest that to someone just starting off.

He does not have 3m high mics stands, so I guess he also does not have 200-400m of high quality mic cable.

He does not have experience rigging; but he needs to start off above a 50 piece orchestra.

He is a private recordist, so no all-riscs insurance, no civil liability insurance. That is a given. And still he is given advice to fly mics. Who is going to start a fundraiser for the OP when things go wrong ?

The sandbag comment was much more appropriate !
Old 1 week ago
  #73
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since you're a pro working in europe...

(i thought you were based in the french speaking area of switzerland for some reason but your profile says differently - i therefore edited the first sentence of this post)

... i'm having a hard time believing you didn't ever use fly mics in the kkl?!

___


[for folks not familiar with the place: the kkl (kunst- und kongresshaus luzern) is arguably one of the better (sounding) halls in switzerland and maybe even in europe; flying mics however equals to dropping mic cables from a ceiling about 25m above stage while making sure you hit rather small holes in a huge moveable cloud flying above the stage - of course mics then are always in the wrong positions so you have to strain a rope or two between the banisters on each side on the first rank...

while i am at it: there are no cable feed throughs at both sides of the stages into small the two rooms (which have no reasonable hvac either. and don't turn on the light as this can get seen from the audience area)! to complete the picture: sitting in the control room isn't a much better option either as cable runs from/to the stage are ca. 200m; same goes with the signals from the fly mics to the rooms on the sides of the stage.

oh, and you cannot unload the truck (yes, even orchestras use trucks to transport their instruments) using a loading dock on the same level and park the truck under a roof!

and in the early days (the building dates from the nineties) you needed two different badges to get to the first rank and up on the roof to drop the fly mics...
_

how do i know? with some experience obviously but everyone else could also find out the most important aspects by advancing the gig properly, regardless whether being a newbie or pro!]

___


don't be yet another recordists not familiar with regulations dealing with flying gear!

look up current regulations to find out what you're allowed to do without becoming or the need to hire a rigger* and which safety measures you need to take into account! they are somewhat different in most countries/places and of course the same goes for a liability insurence.
quite helpful to know in case (some of) your gear does/needs to get flown, say in re-occuring situations like using them for a choir, as section mics, as spot mics in a theater play, often with video/tv in the house and/or a broadcast truck outside etc.

* btw: they are getting paid really well! and you need them (meaning you must hire them or the production literally will not get off the ground) in some situations...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 1 week ago at 11:04 AM.. Reason: edited once, see very first sentence
Old 1 week ago
  #74
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Yannick's Avatar
 

I think you missed my point in the post above.
I am 100% sure the OP does not want to be bothered by all this ...
Old 1 week ago
  #75
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could be (both of what you're saying)...

nevertheless (and to repeat my point), i'm recommending to anyone to get familiar with as many different techniques used in our industry as possible even if some aspects may not align with your view on things, field of work or experience; rigging being one of them.

[sorry to the op - i'm not gonna bring up or comment on his topic again!]
Old 1 week ago
  #76
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
[sorry to the op - i'm not gonna bring up or comment on his topic again!]
That is your most helpful comment so far.
Old 1 week ago
  #77
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the alpha dog on the block made his territorial marking... - WAU!
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