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How to use Avon Deverberate?
Old 30th November 2019
  #1
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jnorman's Avatar
How to use Acon Deverberate?

I bought the Acon Deverberate plugin to assist in minimizing the “small room” sound I have to deal with on so many recordings made in pianist’s living rooms, etc. I have tried each of the default presets, and also tried the early reflection “learn” setting. Each attempt seems to result in unsatisfactory results, eg dull, hollow, artifacty, etc.

I tried to read the manual for user guide info, but alas, not much assistance there.

Can someone please give me some advice on using Deverberate, specifically for rooms in the size range of 15x20x8ft. Best starting point? Which settings to adjust to fine tune? Thanks.

Last edited by jnorman; 24th December 2019 at 11:09 PM..
Old 1st December 2019
  #2
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Good luck to you--I've never gotten those plugs to sound believable on things like solo piano, only on some sorts of speech, usually with some sacrifice of fidelity. With music files, every time I'd think I'd made an improvement I'd go back to the original and find I was wrong about that...that I liked the original better...
Old 1st December 2019
  #3
Just used it on a series of lectures recorded in the 1960s in a very reverberant room/lecture hall. It worked wonders. I have tried it on music with less stellar results but sometimes using just a lower setting works very well. Best of luck! (It does take a bit of fiddling to get it sounding right.)
Old 1st December 2019
  #4
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I agreed with the above. I got it as an alternative to the izotope offering and am not thrilled. It can work on narration/voice pretty well sometimes.
Old 1st December 2019
  #5
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TVPostSound's Avatar
They are only effective on speech.
Old 2nd December 2019
  #6
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jnorman's Avatar
Thanks everyone. I messed around with it some more today, and found that if I set it to “reduce room reverb” preset and then turn down the source reverb down from -15% (default) to -24%, it is somewhat effective without much artifact-type issues.
Old 2nd December 2019
  #7
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Plush's Avatar
Nothing removes the "small room imprint." A disaster.

Invariably it starts as the piano player tells you, "my living room has a fantastic acoustic."

Earl Wild used to record in his living room with creaking and banging radiators as a background sound.

The records were released.
Old 2nd December 2019
  #8
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emrr's Avatar
I've only had very limited success with RX7 reducing anything in a very small range, and only when it's a multitrack recording where I can shave a hair off of every single track before they are combined.....and not in anything like classical music or solo acoustic instruments.
Old 2nd December 2019
  #9
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saagedal's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
Thanks everyone. I messed around with it some more today, and found that if I set it to “reduce room reverb” preset and then turn down the source reverb down from -15% (default) to -24%, it is somewhat effective without much artifact-type issues.
I'm glad to hear that you got better results. The "Reduce room reverb" is indeed a good starting point. The source reverb time (corresponding to the setting you would expect from a reverb plug-in) and the source reverb level are the two most important settings. I usually start with the source reverb level all the way down at -48 dB and increase it until the reverb reduction is good without affecting the wanted signal too much.

Here are a couple of other things to keep in mind when using DeVerberate:
  • Dynamic processing prevents DeVerberate from estimating the correct frequency dependent reverb levels.
  • Setting the correct source reverb time is crucial for a good suppression without artifacts.
  • The new DeVerberate 2 features a new Early Reflections Filter that works in conjunction with the late reverb suppression of version 1. The latter kicks in after 20 to 30 ms after the direct sound. Unfortunately, piano gives the early reflections estimator a hard time due to the periodic nature of the signal. If you have some parts of the recording with more percussive or noise-like sounds, that will make estimation much better. It works very well with dialogue.

Best,
Stian
Old 2nd December 2019
  #10
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jnorman's Avatar
Stian - thanks for weighing in. I hoped someone from Acon would comment. I think I will post some samples later today
Old 2nd December 2019
  #11
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jnorman's Avatar
here are some samples - a simple recording of mozart mov2, flute/piano, with schoeps cmc64s in ORTF:
1. the original recording with no fx
2. the original recording with Acon applied
3. a mix with no acon and with reverb Pro-R) added
4. a mix with Acon applied and with verb added
Attached Files

mozart 2 original recording no fx.wav (5.42 MB, 732 views)

mozart 2 original recording with acon applied.wav (5.42 MB, 717 views)

mozart 2 with no acon and added verb.wav (5.42 MB, 733 views)

mozart 2 with acon and added verb.wav (5.42 MB, 725 views)

Old 2nd December 2019
  #12
It's clearly doing its job, but I can't shake the sense of it being recorded in a small room - possibly too much dry signal on the tracks with added reverb. Such a tricky thing to get right though.

Also, the (what I suspect is a) dog licking its lips is a nice touch.
Old 3rd December 2019
  #13
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saagedal's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
here are some samples - a simple recording of mozart mov2, flute/piano, with schoeps cmc64s in ORTF:
1. the original recording with no fx
2. the original recording with Acon applied
3. a mix with no acon and with reverb Pro-R) added
4. a mix with Acon applied and with verb added
Thanks for these samples! The early reflections are rather subtle and the early reflections filter does more harm than good in this case. The source reverb time is shorter than in the "Reduce room preset" so I decreased that to 45 ms in my attempt and I adjusted the emphasis curve a bit. I tried to upload the preset file, but it was reject. I can send it to you if you're interested. Another suggestion would be to increase the early reflections in the reverb to mask room a bit. I attached my attempt with DeVerberate followed by Verberate.

Best,
Stian
Attached Files

mozart 2 with deverberate and verberate.wav (5.42 MB, 840 views)

Old 3rd December 2019
  #14
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saagedal's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenorfran View Post
It's clearly doing its job, but I can't shake the sense of it being recorded in a small room - possibly too much dry signal on the tracks with added reverb. Such a tricky thing to get right though.

Also, the (what I suspect is a) dog licking its lips is a nice touch.
Attached a version without dog licking for those who prefer that...

Best,
Stian
Attached Files

mozart 2 with deverberate and verberate and no dog licking.wav (5.42 MB, 832 views)

Old 3rd December 2019
  #15
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by saagedal View Post
I attached my attempt with DeVerberate followed by Verberate.
It sounds good. Please, could you post the same sample with DeVerberate only ?
Old 3rd December 2019
  #16
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saagedal's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
It sounds good. Please, could you post the same sample with DeVerberate only ?
Thanks, sure! Attached below...

Best,
Stian
Attached Files

mozart 2 with deverberate.wav (5.42 MB, 846 views)

Old 3rd December 2019
  #17
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didier.brest's Avatar
Effective indeed !
Old 6th December 2019
  #18
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jnorman's Avatar
Many thanks to Stian from Acon taking the time to personally address my issues here, and also for the offline customer support he provided.
Old 6th December 2019
  #19
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saagedal's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
Many thanks to Stian from Acon taking the time to personally address my issues here, and also for the offline customer support he provided.
My pleasure! Use cases from real life are always interesting.

Best,
Stian
Old 20th December 2019
  #20
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
I bought the Acon Deverberate plugin to assist in minimizing the “small room” sound I have to deal with on so many recordings made in pianist’s living rooms, etc. I have tried each of the default presets, and also tried the early reflection “learn” setting. Each attempt seems to result in unsatisfactory results, eg dull, hollow, artifacty, etc.

I tried to read the manual for user guide info, but alas, not much assistance there.

Can someone please give me some advice on using Deverberate, specifically for rooms in the size range of 15x20x8ft. Best starting point? Which settings to adjust to fine tune? Thanks.
Plush's comment about small room sound is spot on.

I was forced to record a large brass ensemble in a room that was far too small for the forces - it was a nightmare from my point of view. After I'd eq'd and added reverb etc., the client was pleased, but from my perspective a power cut would have been a blessing.

If you've already made the recording I wonder if you might try and use Cedar. I had trouble with external noise on a recent recording in a good room, and when I used Cedar to remove the noise it could be adjusted to also remove the atmos and room sound considerably, I might even say, almost completely.

I don't know how it would deal with a small room sound, but trying it might improve the situation. Adding a little reverb after the atmos has been removed would then not be putting reverb onto an already existing small a room sound with too early reflections.

P.S. I should have read the entire thread, I see have better answers to your questions than this, but I'll leave it here in case it is of interest for someone else.
Old 20th December 2019
  #21
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jnorman's Avatar
Geoff - thanks for your comments. Please give a listen to the track(s) prepared by Stian above and let me know if you think the Deverberate plugin helped remove the small room sound from my original recording. My mastering engineer uses cedar to remove noise, but I will check out it’s abilities at removing room ambience.
Old 20th December 2019
  #22
Gear Addict
 

The DeVerberate seems better for your purpose than Cedar, from the experience I have of Cedar and listening to your Mozart 2 sample.

With Cedar the music itself sounded similar whether Cedar was on or off, but with Cedar employed, whenever there was a short silence during the music, or the silence at the end of the piece, there was a lack of reverb and atmos (and noise of course) which is where the most difference was discernible. With DeVerberate it seems to have more of an effect on the music itself than Cedar.

It's Cedar's credit, because it is just trying to remove a sampled noise and not have an effect on the music.

If the chap you mention is able to just sample a little of the atmos before the music starts with Cedar, it wouldn't take too long for you to see if its effect was better on your tracks than DeVerberate, but from what I've heard with Cedar and your samples, I think DeVerberate may be more suitable for the job you have in mind than Cedar. It's just a case of suck and see what works best I think.

The trouble with small rooms is comb filtering with reflections that are too early (as you know).

When reverb is added there'll be improvement. The small room will have done the bass end no favours and eq will likely improve that, if there is anything of the frequency present.

The difficulty as I see it though with reverb, is to find one that isn't telling lies about the original material. A small room recording with large room reverb always sounds wrong and at odds with itself. I think once you step back a little from the concentration you're giving to the recording just now, I think you might find that the DeVerberate(d) version with reverb added will be more than acceptable for most folk, and might come close to sounding to be a larger room. Only the engineer in you will know a larger room might have been better to begin with.

I'd love to know what you think of Cedar for this particular job, once you've heard it on your samples though. I hope some of this was helpful.

Last edited by Geoff Poulton; 23rd December 2019 at 01:17 PM..
Old 23rd December 2019
  #23
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If you don’t have Acon Deverberate, here’s a possibly helpful option but it’s only worthwhile if it’s a very valuable recording and only if you have LOTS of time on your hands but you can use Izotope Rx with the Spectral Editing Attenuate Module and the Gain Module to surgically select and reduce/remove only the reverb after the notes. You can make it as “dry” as you want.
I found this out when trying to eliminate loud audience conversation interfering with a live recording in a restaurant and ended up removing too much of the liveness/reverberance.
Old 24th December 2019
  #24
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jnorman's Avatar
I have spent some time now tweaking and retweaking the Deverberate settings and experimenting with multiple instances of the plug using different reverb times. Here is an example of another smallish room recording (solo flute) where I am using two instances of the Deverberate plugin. It seems like it is working to a fair extent - but I would appreciate your comments regarding whether or not you are still aware that this was recorded in a small room. Thanks.
Attached Files
Old 24th December 2019
  #25
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It's still possible to 'hear the walls' but it doesn't detract overly from the enjoyment of the piece. Could you post the unprocessed original for comparison ?
Old 24th December 2019
  #26
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jnorman's Avatar
Here is the unprocessed file:
Attached Files
Old 25th December 2019
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
I have spent some time now tweaking and retweaking the Deverberate settings and experimenting with multiple instances of the plug using different reverb times. Here is an example of another smallish room recording (solo flute) where I am using two instances of the Deverberate plugin. It seems like it is working to a fair extent - but I would appreciate your comments regarding whether or not you are still aware that this was recorded in a small room. Thanks.
I think this sounds more than acceptable, much more than just acceptable. You can hear that it is a smaller room, but the artifacts that lead to the distaste of a smaller room sound seem to have been largely overcome with what you've done. I could listen to this with much pleasure and never give a second thought to the usual drawbacks of small room sound. It actually makes it sound very present.
I think it's very pleasurable.
Old 25th December 2019
  #28
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jnorman's Avatar
Thanks Geoff - I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
Old 25th December 2019
  #29
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Great tool to (partially) remove the sound of the room I find is Zynaptiq Unfilter. Maybe this could help together with de-reverb plugin.
Old 25th December 2019
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
Here is the unprocessed file:
Interesting to compare the 2 files. The raw one seems to stop on a dime, there's no flutter reflections to speak of, as if the walls are sending nothing back....almost anechoic chamber like. It could have been a lot worse (ie bathroomy !) However that same absence still conveys a small space. So I'm wondering how much 'removal' the Acon is being required to do ?

Have you ever recorded outside, well away from reflective boundaries (walls, fences, roadways...even trees ?) ...you can get an even stronger sense of 'non-boundariness' by doing that, though ambient noise is almost always present too

What you have added is quite acceptable and pleasant, and you've wisely kept the ambience added to the small-room/chamber end of the spectrum, so as not to introduce too large a contrast with the original. As it stands it's quite acceptable and a significant improvement on the unprocessed sound.

Now that you have that, it could be fun to do the same Acon removal, but instead add a couple of (apparently disparate) layers of ambience with varying decay times eg a plate and a hall, at very low levels, perhaps even on top of what you've already added ? These will give a hint of 'complexity' which is pleasing to the ear, and can "cover your tracks" a little too...

The usual caveats apply...add the effects until they become noticeable, then back them off so they sink into the fabric of the playing, and work on a subliminal level.

Don't be afraid to try a set of unlikely ambiences...but keep them very low in the blend. They should have dissimilar early reflections and decay times....and another thing which can cover your trail is to significantly eq the effect returns (eg HPF @ 600Hz & [email protected]). Have fun experimenting!
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