The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Can't decide which mics make this violin sound the most appealing :) Schoeps, Samar
Old 7th October 2019
  #1
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Can't decide which mics make this violin sound the most appealing :) Schoeps, Samar

Recently I received a new master piece - a new generation among my "spherical violins" that brings a completely new sound. Now I keep trying to find out which microphones would bring the most appealing sound and outcome of this instrument and somehow cannot decide. This violin "Orion" has 33 strings (5 playing, 28 sympathetic)

I would be curious to know which sound appears as the most appealing to you - recorded on Schoeps MK2, MK22 (both with Rens Heijnis mode) or Samar TF08.

Of course, the aim is not the "classical violin" sound but rather celestial, spherical uplifting sound. I now quickly played few tones on each of the mentioned pairs (on the background of tuned glass chords). I brought it close to the "final" sound, adding a bit of reverb, so that it sounds with the final polish as if.

Can't decide yet which sound is the most touching, meditative.

All seem to sound good

MK2 - spherical, spacey, but maybe a bit "impersonal" ?
MK22 - more "personal", but slightly narrow ?
Samar - nice, but slightly "ribbonish" touch ? and less spacey than MK2, that on the other hand brings more intimate feeling ? (unless too much)

Which sound would bring you to the most pleasant sweet meditative flow ? (of course, these tones are improvised so it is not exactly the same melody for each, the question is about the overall impression, rather than analysing and comparing each tone/phrase)

For sure - changing the position/distance from the mics etc. would again change the sound and one can elaborate with it further. But it would be good to have a starting point All the 3 samples were recorded in the same position and distance of the mics (cca 40 cm AB position and violin cca 2 meters away)

All recorded with Forssell SMP-2 preamp and MADA-2 converter

Schoeps MK2

Schoeps MK22

Samar TF08



Last edited by ISedlacek; 7th October 2019 at 08:46 AM..
Old 7th October 2019
  #2
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
I seem to incline to MK2 somehow ... Spacey and detailed...
Old 7th October 2019
  #3
Gear Head
 

Can't disagree with anything you've said - they'd all be fine with some tweaks to positioning.

As a default, you can't go wrong with the MK2, but they could perhaps be a little closer.

MK22 was pleasant enough, but a little close and perhaps ever so slightly dull - I think either of the other two options does 'their thing' in a more compelling fashion.

I know what you mean about the 'ribbon' character of the TF08 - but the sound drew me in and felt intimate without being obviously too close. Also, having loaded the samples for comparison, it was the only one I listened to all the way through first time - unscientific, but perhaps revealing.

Thanks for sharing these!


PS Is this the current, revised TF08 or the early one with the slightly wider cardioid pattern?

As per this previous thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
I have both versions here - two pairs, one is the latest revision, that sounds somehow more "focused" - I compared both in detail. For my purpose, I somehow prefer the older version ...
Old 7th October 2019
  #4
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ithinknot View Post
PS Is this the current, revised TF08 or the early one with the slightly wider cardioid pattern?
It is the early one with slightly wider cardioid pattern (that I somehow prefer - I have both here)

Yes, I agree with you - to make MK2 sounding more "intimate" , I have to go a bit closer. MK22 sounds maybe the least appealing out of these three, although only by few mm I also tried MK21, but I did not like them that much (a tiny bit sharp).

TF08 - I don't know, they sound very nice in this case, but maybe slightly less detailed than MK2 (and less spacey obviously).
Old 7th October 2019
  #5
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
These two videos were recorded with TF08

Stereo pair (when we tried MK2 here, it sounded a bit too unfocused):




All the violins:


Last edited by ISedlacek; 7th October 2019 at 11:19 AM..
Old 7th October 2019
  #6
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
TF08 - I don't know, they sound very nice in this case, but maybe slightly less detailed than MK2 (and less spacey obviously).
I think the question is really about the musical roles in a given composition, and whether the priority is giving the violin a soloistic, cinematic sheen (LDC sound), or integrating it into a more open, panoramic texture, which the MK2 does perfectly.

In your improvised samples in the first post, the violin is very much in the spotlight, against a neutral backdrop - in which case, a hint of LDC quasi-vocal soloist treatment is compelling.

FWIW, though perhaps off-topic for others, I'd be interested to hear more about the violins - who's designing and making them?
Old 7th October 2019
  #7
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Thumbs up

If you like ribbons - there are a couple of new ribbons from HUM Audio in Łodz in Poland - you are not that far from them and I am sure they would loan you ones to try if you asked.

The ARM-1L has a 2" ribbon and the ARM-1S has a 1" ribbon.

HUM are HERE

(HUM don't have the new mics on their website yet, hence the links are to the UK site - but as you are in Czechia you can get direct from HUM I think)
Attached Thumbnails
Can't decide which mics make this violin sound the most appealing :) Schoeps, Samar-arm-1s-1000.jpg  
Old 7th October 2019
  #8
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
If you like ribbons - there are a couple of new ribbons from HUM Audio in Łodz in Poland [/I]
I can't use ribbons in my studio ... there is some mysterious magnetic field or something like this around. The ribbons produce some HUM here
Old 7th October 2019
  #9
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ithinknot View Post
I think the question is really about the musical roles in a given composition, and whether the priority is giving the violin a soloistic, cinematic sheen (LDC sound), or integrating it into a more open, panoramic texture, which the MK2 does perfectly.

In your improvised samples in the first post, the violin is very much in the spotlight, against a neutral backdrop - in which case, a hint of LDC quasi-vocal soloist treatment is compelling.

FWIW, though perhaps off-topic for others, I'd be interested to hear more about the violins - who's designing and making them?
Yes, the background is neutral, but also the intention is a kind of "astral" violin and music (as I play live all the time), not really a focused soloist ... So omni maybe better ?

As for the violins, it has been a big development for a long time - like 15+ years. I am classically trained violinist, but if you want to play more meditative appealing music, you will find some limitations of a violin: a bit too focused sound and you have to "milk" every tone to make it sound ... So the idea appeared to have sympathetic strings as and aid to make it sounding more gentle and 3D. I initiated this idea and there was one master following it for many years. Not easy to make, to develop the system, tuning system etc. We started with 7 sympathetic strings, then 9 , then 25 etc

These are the instruments that were made:



All very unique and all of them appeared on many recordings.

Since I don't want to build a museum here, all of them are now available to anyone interested: https://www.savitamusic.com/en/eshop...l-violins.html

Now, a completely new generation of these instruments started when one very famous and great violin maker became interested in this concept. Using many things that were created before (tuning system etc.) he brought to completely new level ... Now a new "bass" violin will be made soon (with the lowest Bb string).









Now, after few months of trying and adjusting, the final varnish will be made even with some "Orion" graphics on it.

The name of this instrument is "Violon Orion". The bass one will be called Sirius

Now when I play a normal violin, I feel like playing a chinese toy (size and sound :D )
Old 7th October 2019
  #10
I thought the Mk22 was just slightly more clear and had the best sound. MK2 sounded a little more like a viola. Nothing wrong with that of course. All three versions are extremely nice and its difficult to choose between them.

I take it all those extra strings are sympathetic as I can't see how you could use fingering on them!

Does vibrato or the possible extreme use of it make the other strings work differently?
Old 7th October 2019
  #11
Lives for gear
 
celticrogues's Avatar
 

MK2 sounded beat to me. The others had a little more of a scratchy/edgy sound that would distract from the meditative flow for me.

-Mike
Old 7th October 2019
  #12
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post

I take it all those extra strings are sympathetic as I can't see how you could use fingering on them!

Does vibrato or the possible extreme use of it make the other strings work differently?
The point of "sympathetic" strings is that they are not played, but they just resonate (after tuning them perfectly). Vibrato etc. does not have any extra effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
MK2 sounded a little more like a viola.
It is actually "viola" - in fact even slightly bigger than viola (with E violin string). So you cannot avoid "viola" timbre on the low strings.
Old 7th October 2019
  #13
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
I can't use ribbons in my studio ... there is some mysterious magnetic field or something like this around. The ribbons produce some HUM here
Likely useful to solve that mystery quickly, I think. . .no reason anyone should have to live like that. I would definitely find some way to make ribbons work.

At first listen I liked the MK2 best But streaming was not good. Perhaps consider uploading them to this thread - or a more robust host [e.g. Soundcloud or the like]?

Thanks for posting about the instruments - very interesting.


Best regards,

Ray H.
Old 7th October 2019
  #14
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath View Post
Likely useful to solve that mystery quickly, I think. . .no reason anyone should have to live like that. I would definitely find some way to make ribbons work.
It is not possible to solve ... even with all the electricity switched off in the whole house, the ribbon hum remains. Going to another studio, the same ribbons with no hum

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath View Post
At first listen I liked the MK2 best But streaming was not good. Perhaps consider uploading them to this thread - or a more robust host [e.g. Soundcloud or the like]?
Here it streams or downloads very quickly - like 50 MB/s ...
Old 7th October 2019
  #15
Gear Addict
Still, I would prioritize solving that mystery - were I in your position. Impossible seems, well, a bit too strong? 'Difficult', 'not readily apparent', maybe?

From Clearwater Florida [over my ISP's network], the streams were painfully slow.


Best wishes - Ray H.
Old 7th October 2019
  #16
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath View Post
Still, I would prioritize solving that mystery - were I in your position. Impossible seems, well, a bit too strong? 'Difficult', 'not readily apparent', maybe?

From Clearwater Florida [over my ISP's network], the streams were painfully slow.


Best wishes - Ray H.
Then better to download it first ? It is also true that these are 96/24 files, so not exactly small like mp3

Sincerely - I don't miss ribbons too much
Old 7th October 2019
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Earcatcher's Avatar
I found the Mk22 most intimate sounding, which would be great for "whisper" playing. With just a little more distance it would sound very good for the job at hand. The Mk2 was a tad too far for me and not so pleasant. Difficult to let yourself be "massaged" by it. The TF08 sounded a bit darker than the Schoepses, but somehow also felt more "authentic". If I were to use this music as a score in a movie I would take the TF08 as it is least distracting with unpleasant scratchiness, while it is tonally full.
Old 7th October 2019
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
DaveyJones's Avatar
 

Those instruments are simply incredible!

Are there any videos of them playing solo? I want to hear those sympathetic strings clearly. Has anybody ever composed any truly idiomatic music for these instruments that REALLY show them off?

Your videos are lovely Ivo, I'd love to hear some examples of these instruments as solo recordings, presented with only a natural acoustic.

Would I find them if I looked?



Dave
Old 7th October 2019
  #19
Lives for gear
 

Gosh, Ivo, just absolutely beautiful sounds from your playing and that instrument. I like the two Schoeps best and the MK2 probably on top. It has a richness to the low end that is wonderful. The Schoeps capture a little more of the resin, texture/breath for me, but the TF08 is great too. But it's the MK2 I would choose I think.
Old 7th October 2019
  #20
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
it's the MK2 I would choose I think.
Me too

I shall just maybe experiment a bit more with the mics position. So far the only position I use and found the best sounding for my taste is AB position with mics about 45 cm apart, in about 175 cm high directing towards me ... When I try to put them higher or lower, the sound is not better somehow. I was just told that another option is to put the mics high and place them behind you directed towards the instrument. Must try
Old 7th October 2019
  #21
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJones View Post
Those instruments are simply incredible!

Are there any videos of them playing solo? I want to hear those sympathetic strings clearly. Has anybody ever composed any truly idiomatic music for these instruments that REALLY show them off?

Your videos are lovely Ivo, I'd love to hear some examples of these instruments as solo recordings, presented with only a natural acoustic.

Would I find them if I looked?
Only live There is nothing to be specially composed for it ... You can use it in the same way as normal violin ... It just sounds better
Old 8th October 2019
  #22
Lives for gear
 
tourtelot's Avatar
Plush would say that the Mk2 is the BEST omni capsule on earth. I might agree with him in this case.

D.
Old 8th October 2019
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
The MK2 is the best capsule in the world.
Old 8th October 2019
  #24
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
The MK2 is the best capsule in the world.

Probably yes
Old 8th October 2019
  #25
Lives for gear
 

Without a doubt MK2 of the three.
Old 8th October 2019
  #26
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Without a doubt MK2 of the three.
I am glad that most people here have the same feeling
Old 8th October 2019
  #27
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
The MK2 is the best capsule in the world.
No - the Gefell MK221 is - as used in the Gefell M221 and the Josephson C617set.
Old 8th October 2019
  #28
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
No - the Gefell MK221 is - as used in the Gefell M221 and the Josephson C617set.
I extensively tried all Gefells few times ... they sound for sure very nice ... but the transparent velvet subtlety of MK2 is still in another level
Old 8th October 2019
  #29
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
I extensively tried all Gefells few times ... they sound for sure very nice ... but the transparent velvet subtlety of MK2 is still in another level
I did put a winky

The Gefell has a nickel diaphragm and the Schoeps a Mylar one - which is why studios normally have a selection from several manufacturers and choose the most appropriate for each situation.
Old 8th October 2019
  #30
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Yet I would choose Schoeps or Gefell over for example DPA at any time ... From what I tried and within my taste and expectations, DPA sound too cold and slightly sterile ... (just my subjective experience, of course)
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump