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Can't decide which mics make this violin sound the most appealing :) Schoeps, Samar
Old 17th December 2019
  #91
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The C700S files render the playing in an almost ethereal way. The sound and overtones just float. This mic would be my choice.
Old 18th December 2019
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
That sounds more like putting the tracks in a food processor rather than 'mixing'...or perhaps its more like James Bond's martini?
i don't care much about the receipe if the menue tastes fine...

my point is that since one cannot expect two vastly different mic systems to behave similar, i suggest using them for both their strengths.

for optimum results, use whatever technique and gear it takes, the processes mentioned above being some from the rich palette we have at our disposal.
Old 18th December 2019
  #93
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
my point is that since one cannot expect two vastly different mic systems to behave similar, i suggest using them for both their strengths.
Yes, exactly, this is what I would love to do, but whenever I try to combine them , the sound is a bit artificial .... As much as I like Josephson result, I somehow miss that Schoeps touch there (width, body, detail). I am afraid I already exhausted all the options

Last edited by ISedlacek; 18th December 2019 at 11:55 AM..
Old 18th December 2019
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Yes, exactly, this is what I would love to do, but whenever I try to combine them , the sound is a bit artificial .... As much as I like Josephson result, I somehow miss that Schoeps touch there (width, body, detail). I am afraid I already exhausted all the options
maybe there is a setup which gives you 'best of both worlds' - i doubt it's gonna be a spaced pair but maybe a m/s or even a double m/s kit?

i hardly ever use several mics at roughly the same distance on a single instrument: other than on drums, some percussion, piano, harpsicord, marimba etc. i'm hardly ever using more than a single mic... - well, i do! not to combine them but to have options/sound choices or to pick up a different frequency range (and filter accordingly)
Old 19th December 2019
  #95
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Yes, exactly, this is what I would love to do, but whenever I try to combine them , the sound is a bit artificial .... As much as I like Josephson result, I somehow miss that Schoeps touch there (width, body, detail). I am afraid I already exhausted all the options
It is still my opinion the Schoeps overlay their sound on your instrument (the harmonics are somehow messed up). If you miss that sound, imo you still have to upgrade your instrument. Or maybe you want something that a stereo recording cannot possibly give you (hence the need to "add" something to the sound)

The last Josephson sample sounds like the real thing to me, not like a recording which has its own sound.
Old 19th December 2019
  #96
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
It is still my opinion the Schoeps overlay their sound on your instrument (the harmonics are somehow messed up). If you miss that sound, imo you still have to upgrade your instrument. Or maybe you want something that a stereo recording cannot possibly give you (hence the need to "add" something to the sound)

The last Josephson sample sounds like the real thing to me, not like a recording which has its own sound.
Yes, you are right, I think this is the sound that is most pleasant of all and I should start finally recording and stop testing and speculating )

For example for flutes (I mean wooden, native etc.) Josephson MS sounds so much better and more pleasant that the usual AB Schoeps ...

With violin I may have had the feeling that it is not wide enough with Josephson, but I think it is just ok ...

I am just pondering about one thing (maybe crazy) - how would 2 Josephson C700S sound as a double MS (in AB position) ? Maybe nonsense or maybe it will add that firm stereo spread and keep the character ? Or it would result in a sound mess ?
Old 19th December 2019
  #97
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Yannick's Avatar
 

I have a theory about the impossibility to record violinists as they would like it (added to the theory of the impossibility to record anything at all...).

Short: we - the audience - never hear such a wide violin. It does not bother me at all if the violin is mono, with a nice stereo hall around it.

Tonally the Josephson (especially the last sample) seems very close to what I can only imagine being the real sound. The imaging is hard to judge with the layer underneath, but a bit more focus like you have in the MS samples is what I like, it makes for a more concrete sound.
Old 19th December 2019
  #98
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Yes, but this is not a normal violin and not a classical music. Here a spacey, mysterious, large, "astral" sound is what is required and desired
Old 19th December 2019
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
[. . .] Here C700S MS (only omni front and 8 sides) with the mic placed slightly higher and facing down: [. . .]

here I added a bit more of the front omni capsule : [. . .]
Liked both, and personally preferred the latter. Through my reference headphones, the high-end frequencies sat better in my ears.

As you might suspect, I never think I adequately understand terms people use to describe the sound they are after - unless those terms are mathematically precise.

But here I would use the fuzzy term 'better clarity' - the latter recording left me with an impression of better clarity on the top end without sacrificing its 'spacey, mysterious, large, "astral" sound' - if that helps?


Best wishes,

Ray H.
Old 19th December 2019
  #100
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Does anyone have an idea how could two c700s sound in a kind of AB configuration with a front omni and little sides ? Maybe it could add that AB kind of space, keeping the intimacy of ms and not adding some alien element (like extra schoeps etc) ?
Old 19th December 2019
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
It is still my opinion the Schoeps overlay their sound on your instrument (the harmonics are somehow messed up). If you miss that sound, imo you still have to upgrade your instrument. Or maybe you want something that a stereo recording cannot possibly give you (hence the need to "add" something to the sound)

The last Josephson sample sounds like the real thing to me, not like a recording which has its own sound.
Not throwing up a challenge, Yannick; but I'm struggling a bit to understand.

I love the sound of the Josephson C700S [1] - but would have thought a properly positioned single or coincident pair of Schoeps M2 mic(s) to be - for me, perhaps even 'far' - closer to the actual sound of the instrument?

This condition is often enough what one wants to avoid. And I was under the impression that the C700S was helping to tame the instrument's acoustic signature down a bit.

I'm getting pretty old now, and know my ears are not what they used to be - especially with ultra high frequencies.

Are you asserting that the harmonics are messed up because 'Schoeps overlay their sound on your instrument'? or because of their spaced configuration and placement?


Kind regards,

Ray H.

[1] The Josephson C700S is - from recordings I've listened to - one of my favorite mics on the planet. But I don't yet own one, and have not yet personally used one.
Old 19th December 2019
  #102
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath View Post
Are you asserting that the harmonics are messed up because 'Schoeps overlay their sound on your instrument'? or because of their spaced configuration and placement?
Both. I do not like spaced techniques (more so on small sound sources), but that can be personal (comb filtering aside). What I do not get however is that so many recording engineers really like the "vibrant" quality almost all Schoeps mics add to every recording, and certainly to string sounds.

Just take a look at the thread title. The question is in fact all wrong. It is backwards. It should be, which mics are least destructive to the original sound.

I fail to see the point in playing on a custom instrument, or a centuries old $500.000 instrument, and then looking for mics that make it sound appealing.

Could be just me of course.
Old 19th December 2019
  #103
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post

Just take a look at the thread title. The question is in fact all wrong. It is backwards. It should be, which mics are least destructive to the original sound.
Well, often the recordings tend to sound even better, more idealistic, than the original sound ... especially when it is not just a documentary recording of some classical performance

Every vocalist etc. sounds so much better on recording than it would sound live in a living room This is what the sound alchemy is often about - to try to reach our most subtle and secret ideas ...
Old 19th December 2019
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
Both. [. . .].
Thanks for the quick response. Much appreciated! - Ray H.
Old 19th December 2019
  #105
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Well, often the recordings tend to sound even better, more idealistic, than the original sound ... especially when it is not just a documentary recording of some classical performance

Every vocalist etc. sounds so much better on recording than it would sound live in a living room This is what the sound alchemy is often about - to try to reach our most subtle and secret ideas ...
While I completely understand, and partly agree, I also strongly disagree. No vocalist sounds as well on a recording as live. Maybe the balance is better, maybe one can correct some problems. One aspect that is almost always worse is, once the vocal is recorded, it actually sounds more out of tune.
The same goes for almost all bowed instruments as well.

An extreme example is a marimba. You can stand next to the instrument and it sounds completely clean. Listening back to the recording it sounds dirty as hell, and full of mistakes. Especially when it is playing minor chords...
Old 19th December 2019
  #106
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ISedlacek's Avatar
What I mean is - that when I for example record this violin, I don't want the result sounding like me playing in this room but much better and more impressive
Old 19th December 2019
  #107
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Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Yes, but this is not a normal violin and not a classical music. Here a spacey, mysterious, large, "astral" sound is what is required and desired
Hello Ivo,

Record with Josephson and add the magic ideas and "astral" sound from your mind.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #108
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ISedlacek's Avatar
A bit of studio gear hardcore porno :D Two Josephsons C700S in my studio )

One for a customer - and with his kind permission I am going to try a crazy setup: AB stereo with each microphone in MS )

So let us see ... Life is fun ...



Old 2 weeks ago
  #109
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Hi Ivo -

With appreciation of the 'astral' sounds you are known for, it would be nice to also hear samples of more traditional standard jazz, ballads, and/or classical - if you are taking requests and have the extra musicians available - instruments and vocals. . .

Either way, congrats on getting the pair in your hands. I look forward to whatever you turn out.


Regards,

Ray H.

P.S. Not that I'm greedy, and want to throw extra work on you. . .
Old 2 weeks ago
  #110
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ISedlacek's Avatar
So it was easy and quick ... AB with each mic in MS does not bring anything nice ... too many outputs ...

And as I tried for the second time already, AB Schoeps MK2 sounds more soft and spacey than AB omni Josephson that sounds a bit harder and slightly more "hollow" in comparison ...

So I can continue with a creative relaxation ... (Schoeps/Forssell)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #111
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath View Post
Hi Ivo -

With appreciation of the 'astral' sounds you are know for, it would be nice to also hear samples of more traditional standard jazz, ballads, and/or classical - if you are taking requests and have the extra musicians available - instruments and vocals. . .
Sorry, no extra musicians here
Old 2 weeks ago
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
A bit of studio gear hardcore porno :D Two Josephsons C700S in my studio )

One for a customer - and with his kind permission I am going to try a crazy setup: AB stereo with each microphone in MS (...)
nice! - when i mentioned double m/s a few posts ago, i wasn't thinking about using two spaced m/s systems though but rather 'the schoeps way':

https://schoeps.de/en/products/surro...double-ms.html

highly recommended/alternative to soundfield! (both not necessarily 'limited' to surround)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #113
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Looks like some small spacecraft ) But seems a similar setup could be also done and tried manually ? (with what I already have)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Looks like some small spacecraft ) But seems a similar setup could be also done and tried manually ? (with what I already have)
yep: i've been using my standard cmc5 bodies and mk capsules to configure a double m/s array and by now use it on about half of my classical work as my main mic array if not using single m/s, ortf, soundfield or (rarely) decca.


[the a/b mostly just goes up to keep the producer quiet - or i point it to the rear side of the hall to get uncorrelated sound for surround rears]
Old 2 weeks ago
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
A bit of studio gear hardcore porno :D Two Josephsons C700S in my studio )

One for a customer - and with his kind permission I am going to try a crazy setup: AB stereo with each microphone in MS )

So let us see ... Life is fun ...
If you're interested, I think you can do some really advanced decoding using both mics in ambisonics as well. I haven't tried it, but I know the maker of the Octomic has mentioned this several times with regard to classical recordings using two in a spaced pair. Check out the Octomic and Leonard Moskowitz on Facebook for more info.

Super jealous of your double c700s setup though! Would love to have a second.
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