The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
More quartet mid side,Ravel +MKH.
Old 2nd October 2019
  #1
Lives for gear
More quartet mid side,Ravel +MKH.

'Stunted badly balanced and a failure' as a Swiss critic said.
I love it.
MKH800 in cardioid mid
MKH 30 side.

Enjoy please.
Roger
Attached Files

CMF19.Heath Quartet CD 1..m4a (12.19 MB, 1454 views)

Old 2nd October 2019
  #2
Lives for gear
 
jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
'Stunted badly balanced and a failure' as a Swiss critic said.
I love it.
MKH800 in cardioid mid
MKH 30 side.

Enjoy please.
Roger
Yes,that's just awful Roger.
Can we have some more please?
Old 3rd October 2019
  #3
Gear Addict
Yes, terrible. Keep posting ;-)

ps. Fauré [the 'swiss critic'] was wrong.

Last edited by heva; 4 weeks ago at 08:23 AM..
Old 4th October 2019
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Yannick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
'Stunted badly balanced and a failure' as a Swiss critic said.
I love it.
MKH800 in cardioid mid
MKH 30 side.

Enjoy please.
Roger
Never mind. The critic was probably describing himself
Alternatively, he should stop listening to those Bose lifestyle speakers.
Old 4th October 2019
  #5
Lives for gear
Lovely recording. I've saved it in my reference folder.

Cheers,
Chris
Old 4th October 2019
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Yannick's Avatar
 

Yes. The biggest criticism I can make is that it sounds too real.
Bummer

One can even enjoy the really good playing.
Old 5th October 2019
  #7
Lives for gear
 
boojum's Avatar
Another ringer, you cad. ;o) My weakness is for live music, warts and all. The audience, the small mistakes, the TB Ward and the Candy Wrapper Rustlers. Again, the perfect performance recorded perfectly can be somewhat sterile, to me. The live performance has, well, life. You always have a plum to post and I appreciate it when you do. Cheers.
Old 5th October 2019
  #8
Lives for gear
 
celticrogues's Avatar
 

One of my favorite pieces of music too.

Gorgeous.

-Mike
Old 7th October 2019
  #9
Here for the gear
 

Beautiful, Roger!

I am wondering if you manage to fit the MKH800/30 combo in your usual vertical M/S mount, or is the 800 too big for that?

Cheers!
Old 8th October 2019
  #10
Lives for gear
No its a good fit.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
Gear Head
Nice job!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
Lives for gear
 
celticrogues's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
No its a good fit.
Does the 800 fit in the usual MZD30 piggyback clip or do you use a different method to attach the microphones?

Thanks!
-Mike
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
Lives for gear
Same method
Pix show MKH80, same as 800 body.
Roger
Attached Thumbnails
More quartet mid side,Ravel +MKH.-img_1747.jpg   More quartet mid side,Ravel +MKH.-img_1746.jpg   More quartet mid side,Ravel +MKH.-img_1745.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
I can understand that Swiss critic in a way. I think your recording is fine, but the way the quartet balanced was not my understanding of the work, which I've played in quartet myself. Just to check my own response I listened to the Belcea Quartet playing that movement on a CD I have. A totally different balance from the players and it sounds quite remarkable. Although the Heath Quartet are OK, they are not quite in the same league.

I realise that just using two mics you could not have changed the balance between the players so I think maybe Ravel is not the forte of the quartet (which I have met a long time ago and heard live here in London).
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Same method
Pix show MKH80, same as 800 body.
Roger
If you don't mind me asking, when did you begin M/S recording using this vertical mic setup? Did you record much using M/S at the BBC?

I like the results. I'm just curious about the history that led you to what you are doing.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
I can understand that Swiss critic in a way. I think your recording is fine, but the way the quartet balanced was not my understanding of the work, which I've played in quartet myself. Just to check my own response I listened to the Belcea Quartet playing that movement on a CD I have. A totally different balance from the players and it sounds quite remarkable. Although the Heath Quartet are OK, they are not quite in the same league.

I realise that just using two mics you could not have changed the balance between the players so I think maybe Ravel is not the forte of the quartet (which I have met a long time ago and heard live here in London).
Its very easy to change balance merely by repositioning the array.
However that is the way they sounded that day in that hall.
My recording is a transcription of that event .
Not an interpretation .
We are not critiquing performance here, just the rude mechanicals of a render.
I ,a non player ,think their performance very moving, a conversation between friends, that's why I posted it as an example of sum and difference technique.
Roger
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
If you don't mind me asking, when did you begin M/S recording using this vertical mic setup? Did you record much using M/S at the BBC?

I like the results. I'm just curious about the history that led you to what you are doing.
I began recording in MS in the early 80s
Documentaries and Dramas for the BBC
About 20 yrs of varied experience.
On retiring I used my knowledge to enter the world of Classical recording.
My favourite array of 2 MKH 30 was too bulky for stage use in a festival.
So I reworked the geometry and came up with fore n aft MS.
It has served me very well, but caused untold consternation in the priesthood.
I enjoy slight heretic behaviour sometimes..
Roger
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
Lives for gear
 
boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
I began recording in MS in the early 80s
Documentaries and Dramas for the BBC
About 20 yrs of varied experience.
On retiring I used my knowledge to enter the world of Classical recording.
My favourite array of 2 MKH 30 was too bulky for stage use in a festival.
So I reworked the geometry and came up with fore n aft MS.
It has served me very well, but caused untold consternation in the priesthood.
I enjoy slight heretic behaviour sometimes..
Roger
"I still say it moves."
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Its very easy to change balance merely by repositioning the array.
However that is the way they sounded that day in that hall.
My recording is a transcription of that event .
Not an interpretation .
We are not critiquing performance here, just the rude mechanicals of a render.
I ,a non player ,think their performance very moving, a conversation between friends, that's why I posted it as an example of sum and difference technique.
Roger
Thanks for the informative reply Roger, and I can see your reasoning and this is backed up by the excellent results you achieve.

I'm listening to the performance and the quartet's interpretation probably from a somewhat different perspective. I'm sure this is a faithful transcription of the event, and my differing opinion of the way the quartet internally balanced is just that, an ex-musician's idea of a somewhat different concept of the work.

I think that maybe the Swiss critic (and I have no great love for critics) was criticising the quartet and not your recording when he/she said it sounded stunted and badly balanced. Of course this quartet may have changed members since I last heard them live, much more than ten years ago.

Thanks again for posting the clip of that movement, it reminded me of how wonderful a work that Ravel quartet is.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #20
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
I think that maybe the Swiss critic (and I have no great love for critics) was criticising the quartet and not your recording when he/she said it sounded stunted and badly balanced.
The 'Swiss critic' died in 1924, and was certainly male!

Cheers,

Roland
Old 4 weeks ago
  #21
Lives for gear
 
didier.brest's Avatar
 

I hear the first violin at extreme left and the cello at center of the stereo image. May this contribute to the “stunted badly balanced” comment of this Swiss critic ?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #22
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
May this contribute to the “stunted badly balanced” comment of this Swiss critic ?
The quote comes from the (French) composer Gabriel Fauré and refers to Ravel's composition, not this recording
Old 4 weeks ago
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
I hear the first violin at extreme left and the cello at center of the stereo image. May this contribute to the “stunted badly balanced” comment of this Swiss critic ?
you're pointing at a reoccuring 'problem' here on this forum:

in order to judge how well a recording/mix was done, how well a mic system was chosen, positioned, additional spot and ambient mics added, maybe artificial efx added, tracks mixed and mastered etc., one would need hear an alternative mix, done with a secondary system, from a different position, using different gear, mixed to achieve a different soundfield etc. - or then refer to another recording, done by someone else.

one would also need to see some pics and read a bit on the goal, purpose, budget, technical means, time frame etc.: a quick take of a rehearsal for private use, done with a handheld recorder is much different from multiple days of multi-mic/multi-track recording/editing/mixing/mastering for cd/dvd release using high-end gear and yet different from going live on-air/streaming, using a fully equipped broadcast truck!

some snowflakes however take any comment on absolut terms and even personel, start whining when getting critiqued (and often turn to attacking or belitteling the critic then) although all one was asking for was some context... - there's nothing 'wrong' with posting clips without context; it's just that i don't find this to be very valuable as it imo rends most any meaningful discussion on gear, technique etc. pretty much void.

greetings from another swiss critic :-)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #24
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
you're pointing at a reoccuring 'problem' here on this forum:

in order to judge how well a recording/mix was done, how well a mic system was chosen, positioned, additional spot and ambient mics added, maybe artificial efx added, tracks mixed and mastered etc., one would need hear an alternative mix, done with a secondary system, from a different position, using different gear, mixed to achieve a different soundfield etc. - or then refer to another recording, done by someone else.

one would also need to see some pics and read a bit on the goal, purpose, budget, technical means, time frame etc.: a quick take of a rehearsal for private use, done with a handheld recorder is much different from multiple days of multi-mic/multi-track recording/editing/mixing/mastering for cd/dvd release using high-end gear and yet different from going live on-air/streaming, using a fully equipped broadcast truck!

some snowflakes however take any comment on absolut terms and even personel although all one was asking for was some context... - there's nothing 'wrong' with posting clips without context; it's just that i don't find this to be very valuable as it imo rends most any meaningful discussion on gear, technique etc. pretty much void.

greetings from another swiss critic...
I'd say that a 'minimal' type of recording (eg 2 mics, whether AB, MS, Blumlein, Jecklin, ORTF etc) and perhaps a written description of the setting (or even better a few photos) should give enough context, without a need to provide a necessary comparative alternative recording every time ?

Whether one comments is dependent on how familiar one is with the context to be able to add constructively...if I've never recorded a band via a remote truck, I wouldn't presume to comment upon the resulting recording...but if I'm an experienced minimalist mic-er, I'd be able to identify with the obstacles faced, the repertoire, the acoustic space etc of a recording made in such a setting....and comment with some experience and authority backing me.

There's not much point commenting upon the performance standard or the individual musicianship...we didn't choose to record (or post the results of doing so) solely based on that. Sometimes we might mic (eg youth orchestras) to not deliberately expose bad intonation etc, but it can rarely be completely covered up...so why comment upon that aspect.

This forum is about how to refine and hone technique...not asking for consensus on whether I should record "that bunch" again, or not ! Maybe Steve could create another sub-forum...for 'aspiring (or jaundiced) amateur music critics'... to vent their critical wit. I predict it would get scant few postings/viewings though... !

So I guess I'm just defending the audio postings (and appreciations/critiques thereof) which appear here quite regularly. To be sure, most err on the minimal-miking side of the fence, with the exception of Steve's more elaborate concert captures. I welcome them all.

To post them here is to expose some vulnerability, and shows courage, plus (hopefully) a willingness to learn and improve...the least we can receive them with is thanks and positive appreciation, and encourage more skill development (or simply overcoming the multiple hurdles of remote recording !)

It's a bit like game hunting or fishing... sometimes you bring home a trophy catch worthy of boasting about, sometimes you're defeated by happenstance (or a failed backup, or noisy aircons or aircraft...) and come here for reassurance by supportive peers
Old 4 weeks ago
  #25
Lives for gear
The quote is indeed for Gabriel Faure who was one of Ravels closest artistic supporter.
It was a gentle snipe at a persistent Basel PA engineer who's belligerent tone and indignant manner is deeply irritating to this Gents Club atmosphere.
Who says the Swiss have no sense of Humour ?
The balance is fine leaving me Didier, have you listened on cans ?
There are ghost images on stage at that venue from side wall reflection but that does not bother me ,or the audience of 600 plus.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I'd say that a 'minimal' type of recording (eg 2 mics, whether AB, MS, Blumlein, Jecklin, ORTF etc) and perhaps a written description of the setting (or even better a few photos) should give enough context, without a need to provide a necessary comparative alternative recording every time ?

Whether one comments is dependent on how familiar one is with the context to be able to add constructively...if I've never recorded a band via a remote truck, I wouldn't presume to comment upon the resulting recording...but if I'm an experienced minimalist mic-er, I'd be able to identify with the obstacles faced, the repertoire, the acoustic space etc of a recording made in such a setting....and comment with some experience and authority backing me.

There's not much point commenting upon the performance standard or the individual musicianship...we didn't choose to record (or post the results of doing so) solely based on that. Sometimes we might mic (eg youth orchestras) to not deliberately expose bad intonation etc, but it can rarely be completely covered up...so why comment upon that aspect.

This forum is about how to refine and hone technique...not asking for consensus on whether I should record "that bunch" again, or not ! Maybe Steve could create another sub-forum...for 'aspiring (or jaundiced) amateur music critics'... to vent their critical wit. I predict it would get scant few postings/viewings though... !

So I guess I'm just defending the audio postings (and appreciations/critiques thereof) which appear here quite regularly. To be sure, most err on the minimal-miking side of the fence, with the exception of Steve's more elaborate concert captures. I welcome them all.

To post them here is to expose some vulnerability, and shows courage, plus (hopefully) a willingness to learn and improve...the least we can receive them with is thanks and positive appreciation, and encourage more skill development (or simply overcoming the multiple hurdles of remote recording !)

It's a bit like game hunting or fishing... sometimes you bring home a trophy catch worthy of boasting about, sometimes you're defeated by happenstance (or a failed backup, or noisy aircons or aircraft...) and come here for reassurance by supportive peers
Can you really ignore the performance entirely - surely the performance and the way it has been captured have to be judged as a whole?

I sometimes listen to great performances (in my opinion) which however (in my opinion) have been poorly recorded. In the end enjoyment of the recording is subject to the musicians and the recording quality. Of course a great performance badly recorded is better than a terrible performance wonderfully well recorded, in my opinion at any rate.

I'm not throwing out criticism of anyones recording by the way as I don't feel terribly qualified to do that. I listen to the whole "product" and have an overall opinion, and that's about it! But I think both the performance and the recording together play an important role. And these are all just opinions.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #27
Lives for gear
 
jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
Can you really ignore the performance entirely - surely the performance and the way it has been captured have to be judged as a whole?

I sometimes listen to great performances (in my opinion) which however (in my opinion) have been poorly recorded. In the end enjoyment of the recording is subject to the musicians and the recording quality. Of course a great performance badly recorded is better than a terrible performance wonderfully well recorded, in my opinion at any rate.

I'm not throwing out criticism of anyones recording by the way as I don't feel terribly qualified to do that. I listen to the whole "product" and have an overall opinion, and that's about it! But I think both the performance and the recording together play an important role. And these are all just opinions.
If this were an 'audiophile' or classical music forum I would agree that musical recordings should listened to with a bias towards the "performance entirely" but, as this is Gearslutz, I want the gear and techniques first and if the performance is wonderful too, that is a bonus. Roger's examples always seem to include an added bonus, which makes them and the ensuing discussions so enjoyable. YMMV.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #28
Lives for gear
 
didier.brest's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
The quote is indeed for Gabriel Faure who was one of Ravels closest artistic supporter.
(..)
The balance is fine leaving me Didier, have you listened on cans ?
Fauré was the composition professor of Ravel, who dedicated to him his quartet.
Here a concert recording of the same quartet (beginning of the second movement at 47mn 45s) where I hear a better centred image on my Beyer T1 earphones.

Last edited by didier.brest; 4 weeks ago at 09:56 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #29
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
Can you really ignore the performance entirely - surely the performance and the way it has been captured have to be judged as a whole?

I sometimes listen to great performances (in my opinion) which however (in my opinion) have been poorly recorded. In the end enjoyment of the recording is subject to the musicians and the recording quality. Of course a great performance badly recorded is better than a terrible performance wonderfully well recorded, in my opinion at any rate.

I'm not throwing out criticism of anyones recording by the way as I don't feel terribly qualified to do that. I listen to the whole "product" and have an overall opinion, and that's about it! But I think both the performance and the recording together play an important role. And these are all just opinions.
I do take your point, but let's assume that there's some self-censoring of truly woeful performances already going on by prospective audio sample posters.

We'd hope they'll hold back anything truly wretched. However, the actual performance/competence level is something we, as recording folk, generally don't have much control over.
Engineer/producers like Plush are blessed with gigs which see him recording world-class players, often for CD or video/radio broadcast release...and there are others of his calibre here also. So the amount of potential 'ear offence' such players could inflict via an audio sample would be exceedingly low.

The truth is that the amateur choral group, youth orchestra, regional colliery brass band, monthly pub gathering of bluegrass band players etc tends to be the fodder of many recordists here...and we have no control over their musicianship.

Thus, such musical sensibilities (for me at least...and of necessity, not design nor preference) take a second place to an accurate rendering of ensemble, space etc...and maybe I'm happier to err on the good recording/poor performance side of the equation ?

If I'm curious about the purely technical side of a miking array and recording venue, I'd venture to say I could derive some meaningful and helpful information from recording a sine-wave source and/or a theremin (replacing a choir or solo violin/piano/flute) ...but I wouldn't presume to impose that upon the assembled listenership here !

Put crudely, it's a noise/tone source...and sometimes that's sufficient for what I want to learn about a miking technique, and it's interaction within a hall or church !

I guess I'm just saying that I don't see this as the aural equivalent of the neighbourhood 'book of the month appreciation club' ...where one might be fearful to venture an opinion on a given author or novel for fear of being struck down by a self-appointed Norman Lebrecht-type of literary (or music) critic

I think we need to blame Edison for enabling us to 'preserve in aspic' and under glass that which is ephemeral, mercurial and idiosyncratic (ie live performance) and instead make it a yardstick and standard bearer of all that follows afterwards...even though performed to the same score !

Recordings therefore have a lot to answer for, but they do give the puffed up 'music critics' raw material for preening, pouting and pontificating upon I count myself as (occasionally) one of these also, see my comments in the 'Suite: Judy Blue Eyes' thread currently running here....

Monty Python brought the absurdity and paradox of such behaviour to our attention decades ago:

"I think all right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. (Well I'm certainly not and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am)"

Last edited by studer58; 4 weeks ago at 12:17 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #30
Lives for gear
Actually, the 'Right Thinking People' sketch went thus:

Graham Chapman: I think all right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired.

All: Yes, yes...

Graham Chapman: I'm certainly not! And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am.

Not Sure?: Mrs. Havoc-Jones.

Mrs. Havoc-Jones: Well, I meet a lot of people and I'm convinced that the vast majority of wrong thinking people are right.

Not Sure?: There seems like a consensus there. Could we have the next question, please?

Woman: I would like to ask the team what changes they would make if they were Hitler?

Graham Chapman: Well, speaking personally, I would annex the Sudetenland.

Not Sure?: Norman?

Norman: I think I'd pay some Dutchmen to set fire to Lord Snowdon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just for good measure...when it comes to English folk taking the pix out of one another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvswW6M7bMo

Sorry...this thread has become a bit too UnRavel-ed....back on topic, as you were....

Last edited by studer58; 4 weeks ago at 12:18 PM..
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump