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More quartet mid side,Ravel +MKH.
Old 10th October 2019
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
The quote is indeed for Gabriel Faure who was one of Ravels closest artistic supporter.
It was a gentle snipe at a persistent Basel PA engineer who's belligerent tone and indignant manner is deeply irritating to this Gents Club atmosphere.
Who says the Swiss have no sense of Humour ?
The balance is fine leaving me Didier, have you listened on cans ?
There are ghost images on stage at that venue from side wall reflection but that does not bother me ,or the audience of 600 plus.
seems like our little vendetta goes on...

no, i didn't listen to this recording and i do not intend doing so as i will not be commenting on any clips anymore, due to the rather hostile habits and poor manners of some hooligans here...

yes, i do mix live (jazz, blues, rock) - but no, i'm mainly into modern/classical/early music recording/mixing/broadcasting (some of which needs amplification though - from stockhausen to goebbels).



[oh, and there are a couple of things which classical engineers could learn from live sound engineers but it looks like there's not too much interest in this around here - another reason why i was hoping for more subforums, for acoustic and amplified music, besides those for hobbyists and professionals]
Old 10th October 2019
  #32
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
seems like our little vendetta goes on...

no, i didn't listen to this recording and i do not intend doing so as i will not be commenting on any clips anymore, due to the rather hostile habits and poor manners of some hooligans here...

yes, i do mix live (jazz, blues, rock) - but no, i'm mainly into modern/classical/early music recording/mixing/broadcasting (some of which needs amplification though - from stockhausen to goebbels).



[oh, and there are a couple of things which classical engineers could learn from live sound engineers but it looks like there's not too much interest in this around here - another reason why i was hoping for more subforums, for acoustic and amplified music, besides those for hobbyists and professionals]
I think that there is room at the Remote Possibilities banquet table for people of all tastes and adequate material for all appetites...but my personal credo is critique the food but never insult the chef (and that can be a fine line).

I too started doing live sound before recording and I would say that live mixing experience is a great asset for a recording engineer. I still occasionally help with live sound but, as I grow older, lugging around vast quantities of kit no longer appeals to me when compared to recording acoustic music with a minimalist rig
Old 10th October 2019
  #33
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
seems like our little vendetta goes on...

no, i didn't listen to this recording and i do not intend doing so as i will not be commenting on any clips anymore, due to the rather hostile habits and poor manners of some hooligans here...

yes, i do mix live (jazz, blues, rock) - but no, i'm mainly into modern/classical/early music recording/mixing/broadcasting (some of which needs amplification though - from stockhausen to goebbels).



[oh, and there are a couple of things which classical engineers could learn from live sound engineers but i guess there's not too much interest in this?!]
My ongoing relationship to recorded music, amplified music and recording of music runs thus....

Mid teens to mid twenties: eclectic electric music collector and hifi enthusiast record collector and fan, classic hi-fi audiophoole

Mid twenties to mid forties: Live PA mixing for acoustic/electric folk band and many, many folk festivals

Mid forties to present: recording of (primarily) acoustic music...choral, orchestral, 'new music', occasional multitrack CD projects for folk/singer-songwriter and country music bands

In each of these 'personal reinventions' I've had to adapt somewhat....from passive hi-fi consumer (with some turntable and pickup stylus & speaker tweaking and frequent component swaps/upgrades) to active interventionist PA operator (learning how to use graphic EQ and mixing console plus dynamics shaping & effects)...where the output from the PA speakers was very much under my control/shaping. I was a music wrangler, stamping my 10 fingerprints heavily upon the sound, taking much kudos and credit for it (**deedeeyeah....you are very much this person too !)

In my now 3rd stage of "music recording person" I've both synthesized, amalgamated and moved on from the previous 2 iterations of myself: I now use the recording tools (mostly mics) to extract as much fidelity to the music from the source (and the space enclosing it), but without trying or being able to wrangle much any of it...

I don't employ EQ, compression, room treatment, speaker delays etc...I face up to the music as I find it, in the flawed and glorious locations it occurs in, and I simply try to capture it, without injuring or changing it. In a sense it has far more in common with the earlier hi-fi pursuit, now tweaking mic types, preamps and arrays, instead of tonearm geometry and phono preamps and tube amps and speaker cables !

So in a sense I've returned to a more passive relationship with the music again, compared with the interventionist, hands-on PA mixer approach. It's still a job of work to get the best recording out of a given context, but I feel like I'm using tools to work with and massage the music into a satisfying recording...rather than trying to push, pull and dominate it the way I did with PA hardware.

I'm pleased for each phase of the journey, and the way it's informed the next one in sequence...maybe in my old age I'll become a purist hi-fi nut again (in the way Neil Young and his Pono system rage against the compressed digital age present) ?

Time will tell
Old 10th October 2019
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by ithinknot View Post
The quote comes from the (French) composer Gabriel Fauré and refers to Ravel's composition, not this recording
This is what has confused the situation as many of us thought this was a current quote from a newspaper/magazine critic.

If it was Faure (who I do admire) it would possibly be a mistaken judgement as this work surpasses anything written by Faure (in my opinion, and possibly in the opinion of most people?) It may have been that it was so badly played at the time Faure heard it that it was not representative, (it's a hard quartet to perform) - or was Faure judging from the score?

Anyway, now that has been cleared up, maybe we can move on.
Old 10th October 2019
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
Fauré was the composition professor of Ravel, who dedicated to him his quartet.
Here a concert recording of the same quartet (beginning of the second movement at 39mn20s) where I hear a better centred image on my Beyer T1 earphones.
I find that recording a trifle shrill Didier and lacking in intimacy
Tonality in Quartet work is difficult to get right
Thats why I was at ear level and 10 ' from the SQ , trying to replicate front row sound, which is powerful and wide imaged.
Roger
Old 10th October 2019
  #36
Here a concert recording of the same quartet (beginning of the second movement at 39mn20s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
I find that recording a trifle shrill Didier and lacking in intimacy
Tonality in Quartet work is difficult to get right
Thats why I was at ear level and 10 ' from the SQ , trying to replicate front row sound, which is powerful and wide imaged.
Roger
I found this performance OK but both Roger's and this had in my opinion rather weak first violins. I personally did not find it shrill although the pizzicatos sounded close miked even if they were not. Still not quite up to my personal expectations. The recording (I think in 2000) by the Belcea Quartet is is very fine in my opinion. (EMI Classics).
Old 10th October 2019
  #37
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
The recording (I think in 2000) by the Belcea Quartet is is very fine in my opinion. (EMI Classics).
Not only in your opinion. It's a reference recording. But not live. Likely there are more than two microphones.
Old 11th October 2019
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
Not only in your opinion. It's a reference recording. But not live. Likely there are more than two microphones.
Yes you are right - I've seen photos of them recording at Potton Hall and they appear to be individually miked. It's a great acoustic though, and I've produced a CD there myself, and it doesn't take a lot of work to get a great sound.
Old 13th October 2019
  #39
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The Kronos Quartet have a DPA on each instrument and use a a PA and get a great sound too.
But is that a true intimate musical conversation?
I think I prefer musical reality, in time space and emotion.
Roger
Old 13th October 2019
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
The Kronos Quartet have a DPA on each instrument and use a a PA and get a great sound too.
But is that a true intimate musical conversation?
I think I prefer musical reality, in time space and emotion.
Roger
Well for me the musical reality was entirely missing with the Heath Quartet. I haven't heard the Kronos so can't comment. As I have said before, the recording I like best so far, of the ones I've heard, is the Belcea Quartet, which also has the wonderful Debussy Quartet on the same disc, played equally wonderfully.

I think that musical tastes and expectations are very personal and vary from person to person, and from musician to musician also. But that is not necessarily a bad thing.
Old 13th October 2019
  #41
I hesitate to labour the musical points but "a conversation between friends" does not on the whole convey to me what this Ravel quartet is about. Musically it seems to me to be a contest between the players and often quite violent confrontations take place. There are sublime moments of surrender and of coming together, only to be interrupted in a sudden manner. There is not to my hearing anyway much of a conversation between friends.

But then people hear and interpret music as well as other art forms quite differently sometimes.

Jimjazzdad said:-
"If this were an 'audiophile' or classical music forum I would agree that musical recordings should listened to with a bias towards the "performance entirely" but, as this is Gearslutz, I want the gear and techniques first and if the performance is wonderful too, that is a bonus."

Up to a point I agree, but surely the performance is the whole point and not merely a bonus? The gear and techniques are of course a great interest - but if the performance is pretty bad,* the best recording techniques can't change that. It would just be trying to polish a "you know what" ...

*I'm not inferring that the Heath Quartet fell into the pretty bad category, only that it did not seem to me to really represent Ravel's music.
Old 13th October 2019
  #42
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post

Jimjazzdad said:-
"If this were an 'audiophile' or classical music forum I would agree that musical recordings should listened to with a bias towards the "performance entirely" but, as this is Gearslutz, I want the gear and techniques first and if the performance is wonderful too, that is a bonus."

Up to a point I agree, but surely the performance is the whole point and not merely a bonus? The gear and techniques are of course a great interest - but if the performance is pretty bad,* the best recording techniques can't change that. It would just be trying to polish a "you know what" ...

*I'm not inferring that the Heath Quartet fell into the pretty bad category, only that it did not seem to me to really represent Ravel's music.
Well, I am the recording engineer; I am not a musician. As I see it, the goal is to capture the live performance as accurately as possible. If the performance is great art as well, then the result is what I call a 'trophy recording' - worth hanging on the wall. Some days I win, some days I lose, but I always try and do the best I can under the circumstances - good acoustic / bad acoustic, ordinary performance / great performance. Don't get me wrong - I sure appreciate great art, but I just don't get to record it all the time. I am a tiny bit jealous of the Rogers and Hudsons of the this world though...
Old 13th October 2019
  #43
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Quote:
If this were an 'audiophile' or classical music forum I would agree that musical recordings should listened to with a bias towards the "performance entirely" but, as this is Gearslutz, I want the gear and techniques first and if the performance is wonderful too, that is a bonus.
Most audiophile meets I have attended the musical and performance quality seems the least important or even identifiable aspect. There are so many beautifully recorded very ordinary performances out there on audiophile labels.

The best performers remain with the big labels and have decent contracts.
Old 13th October 2019
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
Well for me the musical reality was entirely missing with the Heath Quartet. I haven't heard the Kronos so can't comment. As I have said before, the recording I like best so far, of the ones I've heard, is the Belcea Quartet, which also has the wonderful Debussy Quartet on the same disc, played equally wonderfully.

I think that musical tastes and expectations are very personal and vary from person to person, and from musician to musician also. But that is not necessarily a bad thing.

LL ,
This is not a producer forum , we don't agonise.
Its a recording forum , we debate rude mechanicals
The music is almost irrelevant, but obviously not to all participants
Its what we love to do ,just as the musicians love their performance and emotion revealed.
Our role is to render it for others and reveal inner detail.
Roger
Old 14th October 2019
  #45
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I think most participants in the forum share the mindset of "do what I am good at, and enjoy doing it." Whatever it takes ...

There used to be a magazine called "Recording Engineer/Producer" and I think most would recognise that this applies to all of us - just that the individual ratio varies. If the remote recording engineer is the only one on the ground, then production aspects will need dealing with.

Our national broadcaster has clear divisions between "Producer" and "Engineer" in terms of function. But I am aware of situations where a producer was not on site, and have seen the engineer credited at broadcast as 'producer'.

In the world of community broadcasting, such demarcation does not apply. You might do the recording but what you are doing is "technical production" or "broadcast production". particularly (as is often the case) if you are responsible for editing or presentation decisions.

I think that regardless of the idiom in which you are recording, some literacy (even performing) in what you are recording may prove helpful in decding which inner details you have to reveal.

An opinion quoted to me: "Conductors decide balance, recording engineers decide focus ... "
Old 14th October 2019
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
I think that regardless of the idiom in which you are recording, some literacy (even performing) in what you are recording may prove helpful in deciding which inner details you have to reveal.
Vital I think.
Old 14th October 2019
  #47
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
LL ,
This is not a producer forum , we don't agonise.
Its a recording forum , we debate rude mechanicals
The music is almost irrelevant, but obviously not to all participants
Its what we love to do ,just as the musicians love their performance and emotion revealed.
Our role is to render it for others and reveal inner detail.
Roger
Not to mention, that if this newly created thread line of 'musical appreciation of location recordings against commercially released benchmarks' continues, we'll end up very soon with yet another moderator-imposed sub forum on our hands to deal with here....
Old 14th October 2019
  #48
I appreciate the opposing views on this subject and it has been an interesting discussion. As long as we can understand each others points of view and reasoning, then long may we achieve high quality results, both artistic and from a recording/engineering perspective.
Old 14th October 2019
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
(...) An opinion quoted to me: "Conductors decide balance, recording engineers decide focus ... "
and what in your experience and opinion is the producer's role?
Old 14th October 2019
  #50
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Produce cohesion in everybody else? :o))
Old 14th October 2019
  #51
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wish that'd be the case... - often NOT ime
Old 14th October 2019
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
and what in your experience and opinion is the producer's role?
Get in the way....express opinions....make coffee....keep hands off the mixing board.....produce hit records....listen briefly, see the session is running smoothly, go out for a long lunch....pile on tons of echo (Spector)....ensure the budget exists for completion....read the score and keep musicians and conductor on task....any or none of the above
Old 14th October 2019
  #53
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Best producers drive the project with energy and verve
Worst can cause dissent and un happiness.
They can be useful with difficult performers though, a sort prophylactic barrier.
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