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clip of Sonodores on Vivaldi Concerto
Old 25th September 2019
  #1
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clip of Sonodores on Vivaldi Concerto

clip of Sonodore omni pair on Vivaldi Concerto in church with good acoustic https://drive.google.com/open?id=16E...eUlPQShp2Mpyzg
Old 25th September 2019
  #2
Thanks for sharing! Good resolution and sounds CD-ready. Tone is a little different than I'm used to. Maybe older instruments or gut strings. Have any pics from the recording?
Old 25th September 2019
  #3
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Hey Norse thanks for listening! Sorry I didn't take any pics. The guitar is a period replica, and the players specialize in historical performances, not sure about gut strings. It was a lucky moment with no NYC traffic sounds.
Old 25th September 2019
  #4
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Stradivariusz's Avatar
Very nice!
Definitely gut strings with HIP - historicaly informed practice.
What was the distance between the mics, Aracu?
Old 25th September 2019
  #5
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The mics were placed close together, somewhere between 8 - 12", pointing
outwards.
Old 25th September 2019
  #6
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Stradivariusz's Avatar
It's closer that it's often mentioned here on GS. Very nice stereo image for this kind of narrow setup. Is it like between 20 and 30cm?
I've just done two recordings of a baroque group (also HIP) with 59cm (also omnis), twice as much Will put some samples soon in a different thread together with comparison to wide cardioids with similar SRA.
Old 25th September 2019
  #7
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Yes, around 25-35 cm. Omnis can be treated somewhat similarly to more directional mics, for localization info. They are relatively omnidirectional but still have subtly directional polar patterns. Looking forward to hearing your examples!
Old 25th September 2019
  #8
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Stradivariusz's Avatar
Well, I have QTC40 from Earthworks which have an opinion of being more omni than most of lager membrane mics. Sonodores have also very small membrane. Will later compare their polar responce. Always fine to try something new out.
Old 25th September 2019
  #9
The tone definitely has that Sonodore glassiness. It seems to absorb tonal information and reject breath.
Old 25th September 2019
  #10
Gear Addict
A lot of fun to listen to! But I am a bit confused. . .

I listened to the excerpt on AKG K872 headsets [and with the speakers in my MacBook Pro] and was not certain I recognized a guitar - 'gut' or otherwise. In addition to the powerful strings, I would have thought harpsichord or similar? And I can appreciate impact of the location on the recording.

Is there a comparable performance [or set thereof] I should be listening to or studying that might help comprehend the guitar in such a performance?

Thanks for sharing.


Guitarist/Composer,

Ray H.

Edit: Not really asking about Vivaldi. More a question about HIP, this type of recording, and the guitar [which I would have expected to be more presently recognizable]?
Old 25th September 2019
  #11
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Excellent capture of the ensemble and environment, but the tone is bright on my Senny Open Backs
The 'chord sounds really hollowed out and the strings a little piercing
Perhaps you are too close?
Roger
Old 26th September 2019
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Excellent capture of the ensemble and environment, but the tone is bright on my Senny Open Backs
The 'chord sounds really hollowed out and the strings a little piercing
Perhaps you are too close?
Roger
Better too close than too far away in a NYC church!

I like the brightness and detail of it, to balance out the blur of the reverb, but it would also sound interesting with a pair of ribbon mics.

Further back and the bass will sound too indistinct. Maybe closer and higher up...
Old 26th September 2019
  #13
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Don S's Avatar
 

It sounds like they are using period instruments. I like the accuracy, which I can hear bowing very clearly. They are a little pricey, no?
Old 26th September 2019
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath View Post
More a question about HIP, this type of recording, and the guitar [which I would have expected to be more presently recognizable]?
The guitar is much smaller than a standard classical guitar, and is hard to distinguish from the harpsichord sound. If you focus on the harpsichord, occasionally it sounds more strummed and accented (to the right side). That's the guitar adding percussive rhythmic accents. It gives the music a more earthy character.
Old 26th September 2019
  #15
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Nice ambience and depth to your recording aracu....certainly a great acoustic to work in, and hats off to you if you can skirt around traffic or other noise as well Good stereo image for such close mic spacing, and the centre image isn't hollowed out or overly cramped...just right !

The brightness might be tamed simply by going a bit lower with the mic pair (as Rolo 46 did in his recent MS posting, going for more of an audience perspective)...I think the distance from the players is good...or maybe a ribbon pair (but that changes the ambience pickup quite markedly, so a different positioning requirement most likely as well)
Old 26th September 2019
  #16
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
[. . .] If you focus on the harpsichord, occasionally it sounds more strummed and accented (to the right side). That's the guitar adding percussive rhythmic accents. [. . .]
Thanks so much! I was guessing that. . .but, only guessing.

I hadn't thought to associate its contribution with 'a more earthy character', just that - in a spot or two - the harpsichord sounded like it could be something more. . .


Very grateful,

Ray H.
Old 26th September 2019
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The brightness might be tamed simply by going a bit lower with the mic pair (as Rolo 46 did in his recent MS posting, going for more of an audience perspective).
The ensemble is asymmetrical in that there are 4 violins relatively in front to the left, while the cello and bass are in back to the right. Moving the mics lower would cause the perception of near/far (distance) to be too much of a contrast between the two groups. Although if the musicians were carefully placed for the recording it could work out.
Old 26th September 2019
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
The ensemble is asymmetrical in that there are 4 violins relatively in front to the left, while the cello and bass are in back to the right. Moving the mics lower would cause the perception of near/far (distance) to be too much of a contrast between the two groups. Although if the musicians were carefully placed for the recording it could work out.
If the line of sight from violins to mics are unchanged with mic height variation, then lowering would simply shave off some of their HF, while cello and bass are less beamy and closer to sub-cardioid or omni in their projection pattern, so lowering will have relatively less impact upon them than the vlns, over their greater distance from the pair

In subjective terms it would thus serve to pull the cello and bass fractionally forward, and push the violins a little further back. This is all conjecture of course, and experimenting would validate whether it's a worthy exercise, but I think it would inflict little harm to the instrumental balance you have here. As you're using omnis, a matter of 6-12" mic height change would likely be sufficient.

Something similar to Roger's audio sample (and rationale in post #4 of this thread): Dvorak Piano Quintet on two mics.

Of course you could achieve something similar at home with EQ afterwards, but lowering the mics physically would tend to alter the harmonic content of what they pick up, so it's a bit more nuanced and complex result (for such little effort !)
Old 26th September 2019
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
If the line of sight from violins to mics are unchanged with mic height variation, then lowering would simply shave off some of their HF, while cello and bass are less beamy and closer to sub-cardioid or omni in their projection pattern
comparing two different geometric or vector relationships:

A. moving mics backwards, there is less of a difference in the ratio of the distance of mics to 1st row vs. last row of instruments

B. raising mics and moving forward with boom extension, at a certain point the mics become an equal distance to front and back rows
Old 26th September 2019
  #20
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Your risk is in losing definition of the rear (cello/bass) instruments by pulling the mics forward towards the front row of (imaginary) audience...in order to mitigate unwanted violin HF.

Lowering the mic pair could achieve the same mitigation, while retaining the distance ratio of mic pair to both vlns and cello/Bass that you've worked hard to achieve. However, I presume you've tried this already... and found it to be non-helpful ?
Old 26th September 2019
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Your risk is in losing definition of the rear (cello/bass) instruments by pulling the mics forward towards the front row of (imaginary) audience...in order to mitigate unwanted violin HF.

Lowering the mic pair could achieve the same mitigation, while retaining the distance ratio of mic pair to both vlns and cello/Bass that you've worked hard to achieve. However, I presume you've tried this already... and found it to be non-helpful ?
I started out with [mics lower/mic stand further back from ensemble] and moved to [mics higher/mic stand closer to ensemble] as the blend of the reverb with the freq response and the ratio of foreground to background came into focus.
Old 26th September 2019
  #22
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With a single pair only, it's harder to hit that moving target of a single point in space which samples the air from all instruments optimally...part of the rationale for using spots !

I tend to find that as I get closer to a violin I'll bring the main pair proportionally lower (and a spot mic, if used, even lower still...perhaps at players' shoulder or chest height), as the unwanted HF component is projected upwards and thus not directly into the mic capsule's line of fire.

The differential propagation patterns of such instruments makes finding the sweet spot a trial and error (or main plus spots) affair. I'd like to see a side-on view for the violin, like the one here for cello...
Attached Thumbnails
clip of Sonodores on Vivaldi Concerto-violin.jpg   clip of Sonodores on Vivaldi Concerto-cello-top-view.jpg   clip of Sonodores on Vivaldi Concerto-cello-side-view.jpg   clip of Sonodores on Vivaldi Concerto-violin-cello-propagation-patterns.jpg  
Old 26th September 2019
  #23
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Plush's Avatar
I listened through my Chord MOJO with Beyer T51i headphones.

Very nice capture. Authentic and accurate string tone with a nice sense of the room.

I endorse Sonodore.
Old 26th September 2019
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I listened through my Chord MOJO with Beyer T51i headphones.

Very nice capture. Authentic and accurate string tone with a nice sense of the room.

I endorse Sonodore.
Thanks Plush! Those are fantastic headphones for the pure enjoyment of listening to music.
Old 26th September 2019
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I listened through my Chord MOJO with Beyer T51i headphones.

Very nice capture. Authentic and accurate string tone with a nice sense of the room.

I endorse Sonodore.
This prompted me to listen with Stax SRX Mk3 electrostatic headphones...and immediately the hardness of tone I heard in the violins with speakers disappeared, and the sound is now detailed and lush without stridency. I trust the Stax to tell me the truth, so there's a 'perception conundrum' for me to unravel here ....
Old 26th September 2019
  #26
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
This prompted me to listen with Stax SRX Mk3 electrostatic headphones...and immediately the hardness of tone I heard in the violins with speakers disappeared, and the sound is now detailed and lush without stridency. I trust the Stax to tell me the truth, so there's a 'perception conundrum' for me to unravel here ....
I’ve been using Sonodores for years and always have that dichotomy: you hear violins with conventional speakers or haedphones and you have a feeling of harshness, then you go to really good planar or electrostatic transducer and it’s pure bliss!
Old 26th September 2019
  #27
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalo1004es View Post
I’ve been using Sonodores for years and always have that dichotomy: you hear violins with conventional speakers or haedphones and you have a feeling of harshness, then you go to really good planar or electrostatic transducer and it’s pure bliss!
Sounds like quite a limitation.

D.
Old 27th September 2019
  #28
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Sounds like quite a limitation.

D.
I perceive it more as a limitation of the speakers and/or headphones than as a limitation of the Sonodores... As much as I love the Sonodores, I have to admit that they are not the most versatile microphones, but when they shine, in my opinion they do it as no other I record a lot of classical guitar in a wonderful church with great acoustics and always bring Sonodores, Schopes MK2, DPA 4006TL and Gefell M296, and not a single time the guitarist has chosen any of the other microphones over the Sonodores, I think that means something But I have to admit that they can be a risky choice with violins, for example...
Old 27th September 2019
  #29
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalo1004es View Post
[. . .] I record a lot of classical guitar in a wonderful church with great acoustics and always bring Sonodores, Schopes MK2, DPA 4006TL and Gefell M296, and not a single time the guitarist has chosen any of the other microphones over the Sonodores, I think that means something [. . .]
I'm wondering why that is? Sonodore makes pretty cool looking mics. But, I'm getting that your guitarists prefer the captured sound.

What exactly do you think they are hearing that drives him/her/them that direction? For example, nuances in treble captured? How so, what range, etc.?


Best regards,

Ray H.

For reference, I play mostly a Yamaha GC82S - most often using Schoeps CCM5 mics. For in-studio, I sometimes use an AEA A440 ribbon, and am experimenting with LDC mics.

The GC82S is a fairly modern descendant of Spanish Santos Hernandez and German Hauser I guitars: strong bass, bright vivid treble, and stunningly beautiful tone. Also, it is so responsive that considerable effort goes into damping strings to keep them quiet.
Old 27th September 2019
  #30
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath View Post
I'm wondering why that is? Sonodore makes pretty cool looking mics. But, I'm getting that your guitarists prefer the captured sound.

What exactly do you think they are hearing that drives him/her/them that direction? For example, nuances in treble captured? How so, what range, etc.?


Best regards,

Ray H.

For reference, I play mostly a Yamaha GC82S - most often using Schoeps CCM5 mics. For in-studio, I sometimes use an AEA A440 ribbon, and am experimenting with LDC mics.

The GC82S is a fairly modern descendant of Spanish Santos Hernandez and German Hauser I guitars: strong bass, bright vivid treble, and stunningly beautiful tone. Also, it is so responsive that considerable effort goes into damping strings to keep them quiet.
Hi Ray,

well, the musicians usually not very technical in describing it, but they tend to say "they sound more real" and that the others (except for the DPA) sound slightly veiled in comparison. The Sonodores, to my ears, sound extremely fast and revealing in a truthful way, meaning that they're never a good option if you're recording in poor acoustics or with poor musicians, but as I was saying in my previous post, when acoustics and musicians are top, the Sonodores are hard to beat. One thing I clearly hear with them is that they're usually perceived as more holographic, the physical space is rendered in a very detailed way, you feel the space and the depth in a very clear way. Also, their of-axis sensitivity is so even (they're extremely omnidirectional at all frequencies), that you can use them quite separated one from each other and still get a very good center image; you can, for example, record a single physically small instrument, like a guitar, and get the benefits of a wide AB technique (the spacious, uncorrelated hall sound) withouth the drawbacks of it (poor localization).
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