The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
clip of Sonodores on Vivaldi Concerto
Old 27th September 2019
  #31
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalo1004es View Post
[. . .] well, the musicians usually not very technical in describing it, but [. . .]
Thanks for the quick reply and clear perspectives! - Ray H.
Old 27th September 2019
  #32
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalo1004es View Post
(...) you can, for example, record a single physically small instrument, like a guitar, and get the benefits of a wide AB technique (the spacious, uncorrelated hall sound) withouth the drawbacks of it (poor localization).
if that's so, does anyone have a technical/logical explanation for this?
Old 27th September 2019
  #33
Gear Maniac
 
Stradivariusz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalo1004es View Post
...Also, their of-axis sensitivity is so even (they're extremely omnidirectional at all frequencies), that you can use them quite separated one from each other and still get a very good center image; you can, for example, record a single physically small instrument, like a guitar, and get the benefits of a wide AB technique (the spacious, uncorrelated hall sound) withouth the drawbacks of it (poor localization).
Is it not common to all very small diaphragmas microphones?
I have an impression that Earthworks QTC also have this ability.
Old 27th September 2019
  #34
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
if that's so, does anyone have a technical/logical explanation for this?
Rens himself talks about that in the RCM402 page (http://www.rensheijnis.com/rcm402.htm). According to him it is due to the diaphragm size and the dedicated power supply. Setting a pair of RCM402 and a pair of Schoeps MK2 side by side and progressively separating them makes the difference pretty evident.
Old 27th September 2019
  #35
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalo1004es View Post
Rens himself talks about that in the RCM402 page (http://www.rensheijnis.com/rcm402.htm). According to him it is due to the diaphragm size and the dedicated power supply. Setting a pair of RCM402 and a pair of Schoeps MK2 side by side and progressively separating them makes the difference pretty evident.
hm...

this then could also get noticed with other minuature capsules...- anyone tried rens' mics on a jecklin disc? must sound terrific then, no?

the other thing (power supply etc.) to me seems more like a self-promotion of what he's been doing for a long time with other gear - throuble is i did get to compare modified mics with standard mics and could not verify some of the claims (but maybe i'm just too dumb 'cause i couldn't find much if any benefits of high-powered versus standard b&k mics either)?!

and the last thing i completely take on me is that i'm almost never using any omnis in a/b; the single biggest reason for not doing so is actually poor localisation (and which is why i almost always strongly favour coincident pairs) - so maybe i should give the sonodores a try...

thx!
Old 27th September 2019
  #36
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradivariusz View Post
Is it not common to all very small diaphragmas microphones?
I have an impression that Earthworks QTC also have this ability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalo1004es View Post
Rens himself talks about that in the RCM402 page (http://www.rensheijnis.com/rcm402.htm). According to him it is due to the diaphragm size and the dedicated power supply. Setting a pair of RCM402 and a pair of Schoeps MK2 side by side and progressively separating them makes the difference pretty evident.
If there is any luck involved, I'm guessing that my DPA 6060 lavs won't get me the same result. . .don't know that I've seen DPA publish off-axis sensitivity specs for these mics. But, they are the smallest mics I've got.

I had looked at the RCM402 link just yesterday; but didn't recall the point. Guess my mind had somehow categorized it with orchestral or larger ensemble recording? Thanks for pushing me back there.

I still don't adequately appreciate to what extent Rens is addressing direct signal vs including effects from reflections/room/ambiance? I'm thinking he is primarily addressing direct signal with respect to the image.

I will look for a more detailed study. And maybe even try my 6060s for the fun of it.


Many thanks for the extra info,

Ray H.
Old 27th September 2019
  #37
Gear Maniac
 
Stradivariusz's Avatar
Some time ago I did this recording...
It was not possible to put the mic stand at front of the orchestra, so I decided to try out a very wide setup with just two QTC40's. Both were placed just outside of the orchestra sides. SO distance between mics was about 6 meters.
As much as I remember I did not do much to the recording, just slightly rised the high frequencies of the MID section to compensate the distance of the middle parts of the orchestra to the microphones. The idea came from Kostas Metaxas who used this kind of setp in his very interesting recordings.
Strad
Attached Files

wide omnis.mp3 (1.15 MB, 900 views)

Old 28th September 2019
  #38
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradivariusz View Post
Some time ago I did this recording...
It was not possible to put the mic stand at front of the orchestra, so I decided to try out a very wide setup with just two QTC40's. Both were placed just outside of the orchestra sides. SO distance between mics was about 6 meters.
As much as I remember I did not do much to the recording, just slightly rised the high frequencies of the MID section to compensate the distance of the middle parts of the orchestra to the microphones. The idea came from Kostas Metaxas who used this kind of setp in his very interesting recordings.
Strad
Good quality recording... but with an exaggerated concentration of sound located at and defining the extreme left and right sides of the stereo image. The violins are all the way over to the left, scrunched together at the same point, defining the extreme left boundary of the stereo image. The dominant oboe is glued in place to the extreme right edge of the stereo image. It works as a stylized recording of classical music and creates an interesting effect, but is a radical departure from listening to a live ensemble.
Old 28th September 2019
  #39
Lives for gear
 
tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
but with an exaggerated concentration of sound located at and defining the extreme left and right sides of the stereo image.
How could this NOT be true? Isn't it what is commonly referred to as "hole in the middle"?

I have had to do this sort of recording a few times because of, for example, projected images, and it sucks. And it is usually the case that these images are SO important to the performance that no one in charge can be bothered with the sound of their show. I just shrug my shoulders and push the red button. C'est la vie.

D.
Old 28th September 2019
  #40
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradivariusz View Post
Some time ago I did this recording...
It was not possible to put the mic stand at front of the orchestra, so I decided to try out a very wide setup with just two QTC40's. Both were placed just outside of the orchestra sides. SO distance between mics was about 6 meters.
As much as I remember I did not do much to the recording, just slightly rised the high frequencies of the MID section to compensate the distance of the middle parts of the orchestra to the microphones. The idea came from Kostas Metaxas who used this kind of setp in his very interesting recordings.
Strad
talk about sra or was that in another thread? :-)

(i suggest using blm's in front of the orchestra if you cannot place mains in their usual place)
Old 28th September 2019
  #41
Gear Maniac
 
Stradivariusz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
talk about sra or was that in another thread? :-)

(i suggest using blm's in front of the orchestra if you cannot place mains in their usual place)
SRA was in another thread

With floor mics front will get covered. What about the back? I ask because I don't have any experiance with that setup.
Old 28th September 2019
  #42
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradivariusz View Post
With floor mics front will get covered. What about the back? I ask because I don't have any experiance with that setup.
front: depends much on their distance to the orchestra but ime can be sufficient to get estonishingly wide and deep coverage (about the same as reverb occurs everywhere in the room); the podium for the conductor can help to shield off too much direct sound from the instruments in the front.

rear: well, further blm's :-) point those (directional) mics from the side into the orchestra/towards the rear.
Old 28th September 2019
  #43
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
[. . .] blm's [. . .]
Apologies - but are you referring to Boundary Layer mics [e.g. Schoeps BLM 03 C, BLC, etc.]? or something else?


Ray H.
Old 28th September 2019
  #44
Gear Maniac
 
Stradivariusz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Good quality recording... but with an exaggerated concentration of sound located at and defining the extreme left and right sides of the stereo image. The violins are all the way over to the left, scrunched together at the same point, defining the extreme left boundary of the stereo image. The dominant oboe is glued in place to the extreme right edge of the stereo image. It works as a stylized recording of classical music and creates an interesting effect, but is a radical departure from listening to a live ensemble.
That's true, but I wonder if it would sound this way in a better acoustics. Actually the image is a kind of similar to that which you've got in the first row of the public. The violins were extremely to the left as was the oboe to the right. There was absolutely no place what so ever for any later side reflections since the orchestra was around a meter from the walls and micros even closer. I wish to try it once in a church or a concert hall with wider space. Anyway, I can follow every part separately and the color of the recording is definitely pleasant to listen, so was happy with the result, although it differs definitely from the more common approach
Thanks for the listening and some interesting points (y)
Old 28th September 2019
  #45
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath View Post
(...) are you referring to Boundary Layer mics [e.g. Schoeps BLM 03 C, BLC, etc.]? or something else? (...)
blm's, pzm's - or pretty much about any other mic which you force to behave as such; even your 6060's should do (and actually perform better due to raised output)!

but yeah, i have two of the large schoeps (although i mostly forget to bring them along for standard recording situations and then grab any of the available ldc's or sdc's) :-)

the videots like 'real' blm's much better though - me: not necessarily...
Old 30th September 2019
  #46
Gear Maniac
 
Haigbabe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradivariusz View Post
Well, I have QTC40 from Earthworks which have an opinion of being more omni than most of lager membrane mics. Sonodores have also very small membrane. Will later compare their polar responce. Always fine to try something new out.
I’m guessing you’re referring to the RCM-402?

But there are also other microphones from Rens. I have LDC as do others. And perhaps the LDM-54 will prove to be even better than the 402.

As to comments about glassiness or whatever, am quite surprised, never had that experience. Might be good to keep in mind that one can buy different grids to change HF response. Perhaps less fortunate choices were made on that day? The RCM-402 with standard grid is perhaps (one of) the most honest and pure mics out there. It’s worth comparing in real world, they really are beautiful.

Haigbabe
Old 1st October 2019
  #47
Gear Maniac
 
Stradivariusz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haigbabe View Post
I’m guessing you’re referring to the RCM-402?

But there are also other microphones from Rens. I have LDC as do others. And perhaps the LDM-54 will prove to be even better than the 402.

As to comments about glassiness or whatever, am quite surprised, never had that experience. Might be good to keep in mind that one can buy different grids to change HF response. Perhaps less fortunate choices were made on that day? The RCM-402 with standard grid is perhaps (one of) the most honest and pure mics out there. It’s worth comparing in real world, they really are beautiful.

Haigbabe
Yes! I forgot, that Sonodore has also a large diaphragm microphone.
Would be happy to check actually also the larger mics in this situation to see how they compare and behave.
Old 1st October 2019
  #48
Gear Maniac
 
Haigbabe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradivariusz View Post
Yes! I forgot, that Sonodore has also a large diaphragm microphone.
Would be happy to check actually also the larger mics in this situation to see how they compare and behave.
And sorry to be pedantic, but Rens makes half a dozen LDCs. The LDM-54 is of course good to compare to the 402, but he also makes an excellent tube LDC aimed at vocal applications. Then he has other variants which come in tube or FET format.

And choices of cables

Best wishes,

Haigbabe
Old 6th October 2019
  #49
Here for the gear
 

Aracu, the link to file does not work. Please load the music on GS itself? In future it will be still there for new GS visitors.
Old 6th October 2019
  #50
Lives for gear
 
jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orgeltonmeister View Post
Aracu, the link to file does not work. Please load the music on GS itself? In future it will be still there for new GS visitors.
Odd. I can access the Google Drive link with no problems, Even when I am not signed in to Google. But I agree - uploading the MP3 files to GS preserves the longevity of the thread,
Old 6th October 2019
  #51
Here for the gear
 

Last week I listened on location with laptop and that worked, now with my stationary computer at home it did not work, but I solved it now, it was an issue with my OS. Thanks Jim to let me know you did not have problems playing the file.

Great recording Aracu, though in my humble hearing the Sonodores have a little more sharpness than reality, esp. regarding the ultra-sonic part of the audioband; there where the music is gone but mechanical noises are still present. >14k.
Old 8th October 2019
  #52
Lives for gear
 

clip of Sondores with grids removed (music by Dan Godfrey):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1us...2z-3XjccThDbet
Old 8th October 2019
  #53
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
clip of Sondores with grids removed (music by Dan Godfrey) [. . .]]
Thanks for the extra sample. Can you please provide a bit more detail on the context of this recording?


Best regards,

Ray H.

Godfrey vs Vivaldi is not a fair fight, I think - even deducting points for the harpsichord [not my all-time favorite instrument]. Referring to the compositions, not your recordings of them.
Old 8th October 2019
  #54
Here for the gear
 

I like the Godfrey sample very much. Without the grid you get a rapid decay of HF right above 14k. That may probably be a reason also why many like the U87 aswell as some ribbons.
Old 8th October 2019
  #55
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath View Post
Thanks for the extra sample. Can you please provide a bit more detail on the context of this recording?


Best regards,

Ray H.

Godfrey vs Vivaldi is not a fair fight, I think - even deducting points for the harpsichord [not my all-time favorite instrument]. Referring to the compositions, not your recordings of them.
Hi Ray, the recording was made yesterday, in a different church with a different ensemble (two violins, viola, 2 cellos). The mics were placed close to the ensemble. The recording was made primarily as an aid in rehearsing the piece, to help the musicians and composer figure out how they wanted to interpret it, and to help figure out what needed work, in preparation for a future recording.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #56
Gear Head
Sounds really nice - the direct/ambient balance is really good - detailed, but with a nice sense of the space. Nice performance, too. Definitely sounds like period instruments played in the style. Nice work!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #57
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlw View Post
Sounds really nice - the direct/ambient balance is really good - detailed, but with a nice sense of the space. Nice performance, too. Definitely sounds like period instruments played in the style. Nice work!
Thanks for listening. Vivaldi was a very original and poetic composer, with a great understanding of instrumentation. His music is challenging to play well. The recording was made during the rehearsal before the concert. When the church was filled with people, the sound became slightly darker and less clear.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #58
Gear Maniac
 
elpillo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
clip of Sonodore omni pair on Vivaldi Concerto in church with good acoustic https://drive.google.com/open?id=16E...eUlPQShp2Mpyzg
Thanks for sharing. I think your clips sound great. Beautiful sounding mics.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump