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LIVE Recording Double Bass - Bleed Nightmare
Old 31st January 2018
  #1
Gear Nut
 

LIVE Recording Double Bass - Bleed Nightmare

Hello folks,

This topic is for making a Live Jazz Recording (not Live sound).
In some situations (especially louder small stages in small Jazz clubs) it could be a nightmare to record a double bass without all that bleed from louder instruments (especially drums or horns). The bass tracks are full with (nice sounding, but very loud) bleed.

I regulary use a Dpa 4099 or a H-Clamp with a SDC (for example Neumann KM140), because I still like sound of this mics. Also I know that they have a lovely Off-Axis response, however often it is too much for my taste.

So my question: How about pointing the 4099 INTO the high side of the F-Hole? Less bleed? I also own a Dpa 4061 (less proximity, because it is an omni pattern).
Any experiences with this position and mics? How is the definition of this sound taken into the hole??

I would try it for the upcoming recording, unfortunately there is no time for any soundcheck.
Old 31st January 2018
  #2
Lives for gear
 

add a piezo pickup and feed it through a di box with a very high resistance and/or use a dynamic mic of choice and roll off some high frequency
Old 31st January 2018
  #3
Ehrlund EAP is my weapon, plus mic for solos and more realism. I match EQ of EAP with mic using automatic feature in isotope. I recorded a lot of jazz gigs (more than a 100) and haven't found anything better. No piezo ever come close, hate them with all my heart.
Old 31st January 2018
  #4
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyjanopan View Post
No piezo ever come close, hate them with all my heart.
same problem here, hate that steril sound in a dynamic Jazz show.
Thats the reason I still want a real mic signal (an DI signal only for a backup).
Old 31st January 2018
  #5
Lives for gear
 

we all hate piezos! however, it's the resistance of the di that makes all difference - you'll be amazed what you can get out of otherwise creepy harsh sounding piezos...

most visiting high profile bass players here at the jazz festival have been using this and none of them complained - of course we're also using dpa and/or m88 or alike on basses as well as a variety of mics on their cabs, but piezo/dynamic quite often get preferred, not only in their wedges but also in the recording/mixing.

just because a mike is from dpa, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best option; sanken cos11 inside the bass may not be bad either... :-)
Old 31st January 2018
  #6
I tried everything and of course DI make a change, but I prefer Ehrlund EAP anyway, especially when it's very easy to mount and remove without any mark. Sometimes besides the microphone I would record both piezo and EAP if bass player is used to this sound, but I never used it in a mix so far. Here's sample, EAP and Sennheiser MD441, same part of the song but the difference in bleed is quite essential, keep in mind that EAP is basically contact microphone so there's still some bleed. It's just a raw recording, I would EQ EAP so there's less honk (if there's more time during soundcheck, moving it 1cm helps, here it was without any soundcheck, just a random guess), but you'll get the idea.
Attached Files

BASS SENNHEISER MD441.mp3 (783.7 KB, 1435 views)

BASS EHRLUND EAP.mp3 (783.7 KB, 1454 views)

Old 31st January 2018
  #7
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
^^^ That is certainly 'night and day'. Thank you for posting the comparison.
Old 31st January 2018
  #8
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyjanopan View Post
I tried everything and of course DI make a change, but I prefer Ehrlund EAP anyway, especially when it's very easy to mount and remove without any mark.
very cool, very cool! Thanks for the sound files.
The Ehrlund EAP sounds really cool...big difference!! What is the best place to mount it?? Do you have a picture for me to use it in a Live show?? What is the recommended connection? Ehrlund EAP>DI Box with XLR Output>Recorder?

Indeed, it is very important that it is easy to mount und to remove it without any remarks. Since it is not my own bass but I have to record many different players....nobody wants a scary looking mic solution.

@ deedeeyeah
I never heard of a di box with a very high resistance? Could you give me an example where to buy such an DI-box here in Germany/Europe?
Maybe you mean such an item??:
Radial Engineering PZ-DI – Musikhaus Thomann
At the moment I use this DI-Box for double bass:
BSS AR-133 Aktive DI-Box – Musikhaus Thomann

Thanks....
Old 31st January 2018
  #9
Lives for gear
 

ehrlund seems to be a nice option to explore!

it's the radial pz di (with the impedance switch between 220kilo, 1mega and 10megaohms) that i've been suggesting for use with piezos - i do NOT recommend the bss di box...
Old 31st January 2018
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricola View Post
very cool, very cool! Thanks for the sound files.
The Ehrlund EAP sounds really cool...big difference!! What is the best place to mount it?? Do you have a picture for me to use it in a Live show?? What is the recommended connection? Ehrlund EAP>DI Box with XLR Output>Recorder?
In the manual there's picture of general area where it should sound most balanced, it's somewhere between the F hole and bridge, like in this picture below. Having it close to the F hole like here gives more low end and moving it to the right would give more stringy sound and more of a wood tone. The most important thing is to have the cable away from the body on the first few centimeters, otherwise it would pass through resonances, you can see in the picture that the cable is coiled and mounted on this black part so it's safe. I suggest getting it with matching preamplifier powered by the phantom power, there's XLR output so no DI needed.
Attached Thumbnails
LIVE Recording Double Bass - Bleed Nightmare-ehrlund1.jpg  
Old 31st January 2018
  #11
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
ehrlund seems to be a nice option to explore!

it's the radial pz di (with the impedance switch between 220kilo, 1mega and 10megaohms) that i've been suggesting for use with piezos - i do NOT recommend the bss di box...
Thanks so much for this suggestion! I just ordered this Di-Box and looking forward to use it with the 10megaohms impedance. Do you use the low and High cut option for recording or would you suggest to make this decision later in a mixing approach??
Old 31st January 2018
  #12
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyjanopan View Post
The most important thing is to have the cable away from the body on the first few centimeters, otherwise it would pass through resonances, you can see in the picture that the cable is coiled and mounted on this black part so it's safe.
This is indeed a big problem which I already got with the dpa 4099. A very ugly resonance and strong sizzzle noise which bleeding from the body over the thin cable into the mic.
I really hope this solution is safe....so thanks for the picture!!

btw, what are the white points...I mean how you get fixed (mount) this EAP exactly? Tape strips? bubble gum :-)??
Old 31st January 2018
  #13
Lives for gear
 

amongst others, schertler has (besides his mics) some kind of gum that does really well on acoustic instruments (i used it from bass to guitars to dulcimer etc)

regarding the piezo di, i think the hi cut is set way too low: may work if you need to get rid of some of the crackling sound you get when someone is slamming the pickup of a jazz bass, but under more moderate conditions, my experience is that you loose too much detail in the higher register, so i suggest you better deal with it while mixing.
however, i do like the continuous low cut, mainly on guitars, but sometimes also on basses that sound very boomy.
Old 31st January 2018
  #14
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

I've devised a sort of backwards way of going about it. In addition to a single mic on the bass, usually a 414 in "narrow cardioid," I amp the bass and turn the amp up more than some people might think prudent. Bass leakage in everything else. Fighting fire with fire, as it were.

These 2 examples aren't straight-ahead jazz. But they're small, live acoustic groups packed into my tight, fairly dead space. Food for thought, maybe -- see what you think.

http://studio-noho.net/Big_Lucky_Snuggle_Bear.mp3

http://studio-noho.net/Cafe_Musique_Lovers_Waltz.mp3
Old 31st January 2018
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I amp the bass and turn the amp up more than some people might think prudent. Bass leakage in everything else.
like that approach! one can't have enough bass - never!

i asked anthony jackson once what made him pick up the bass - his answer: 'cause it has the most sex!'
Old 31st January 2018
  #16
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
like that approach! one can't have enough bass - never!

i asked anthony jackson once what made him pick up the bass - his answer: 'cause it has the most sex!'
I worked with him a fair amount at one point, and he always seemed to have the most strings and play the most notes.
Old 31st January 2018
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I worked with him a fair amount at one point, and he always seemed to have the most strings and play the most notes.
yesss - and his bass was a trunk!

loved his tube tech/stage accompany rig, all in blue...
Old 31st January 2018
  #18
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
yesss - and his bass was a trunk!

loved his tube tech/stage accompany rig, all in blue...
btw, would love to write you a pm in german since you located in CH....with some more detailed questions about your Jazz experiences...any chance??
Old 31st January 2018
  #19
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swafford's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I've devised a sort of backwards way of going about it. In addition to a single mic on the bass, usually a 414 in "narrow cardioid," I amp the bass and turn the amp up more than some people might think prudent. Bass leakage in everything else. Fighting fire with fire, as it were.
My head just exploded.
Old 31st January 2018
  #20
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by swafford View Post
My head just exploded.
Like putting out a forest fire by setting stuff on fire. :-)
Old 31st January 2018
  #21
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swafford's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Like putting out a forest fire by setting stuff on fire. :-)
It's counter intuitive for sure. I struggle with this when my pals come over and do acoustic stuff. Usually I mic him, run his pick up to a Ampeg SB-12 I stick the out in the breezeway (its a barn) and mic up, split that to a DI and out of the three, hope I get something usable. Definitely going to try it in the room (smallish, but not totally dead) next time.
Old 31st January 2018
  #22
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by swafford View Post
It's counter intuitive for sure.
No kidding. I don't have an example handy for posting, but with an "acoustic bass" (those things that sit in your lap) it can be especially helpful.
Old 1st February 2018
  #23
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I second the recommendation for the Ehrlund pickup. The sound changes a lot depending on where on the bass it's mounted, which is actually good, because you can get anything from really subby woofy tones to barking mid-range, or something that actually sounds quite lifelike.
Old 1st February 2018
  #24
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peller View Post
I second the recommendation for the Ehrlund pickup. The sound changes a lot depending on where on the bass it's mounted, which is actually good, because you can get anything from really subby woofy tones to barking mid-range, or something that actually sounds quite lifelike.
interesting!
So which position you would recommend for a more lifelike sound with some finger picking noises (I don't like it too bassy or boomy)? I think I will try that Ehrlund EAP this sunday when the next concert is scheduled.
Old 1st February 2018
  #25
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I never saw the positions myself -- the bass player was in a different room from me! I recall the first position he tried was just sub-bass, the next one had no low end at all, and the third position was pretty close to the sound of the miked instrument. So, experiment, I guess.
Old 1st February 2018
  #26
also important is the distance of EAP from the instrument, the closer you get the more low end, but everything is in the manual anyway
Old 9th February 2018
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I've devised a sort of backwards way of going about it. In addition to a single mic on the bass, usually a 414 in "narrow cardioid," I amp the bass and turn the amp up more than some people might think prudent. Bass leakage in everything else. Fighting fire with fire, as it were.
I agree with this. Remember, what has more leakage - two loud guitars or two soft guitars?.......................They have the same leakage because it is the balance that is important.

I have had great results micing the amp with a dynamic in live situations. Bass players usually play with these even in live gigs.

Best of luck
Old 25th February 2018
  #28
Here for the gear
 

Nadine

Have you considered Nadine by Ear Trumpet Labs? Their mic's are favored by bluegrass musicians and it looks like this is also used by Christian McBride.

I'm a musician but my work is broadcast audio so I don't have any direct experience, just food for thought.
Old 27th February 2018
  #29
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Moke's Avatar
 

I'll add nothing of value here. And to add to that, I'll throw down a question, or two,...

I got myself a round of nasty cough, and the wife had me down. So, I flipped through the channels, and found this concert broadcast, and I'll just wing a portion of the title: Dear Jerry,... something something something
It was a gathering of musicians celebrating the music of Jerry Garcia.

In the broadcast, there was a string bass being played. At first I thought it odd when I looked at the F-Holes, which looked to be cut with a steak knife, or other crude tool.
Then I got a close up, and it appears that they're stuffed with foam.


This is about the best image I could find that had this same bass being shown, ^, and the base of my question(s).

Help me learn. I'm a recordist, not a live sound tech.
Assuming it to be something on topic to this thread, as isolation?
Effectiveness?

Last edited by Moke; 27th February 2018 at 05:42 PM..
Old 28th February 2018
  #30
Lives for gear
 

I have both a fiddle and bass Schertler contact mics. The substance used to "Roll a Worm", that connects the mic to the instrument and also provides a sonic seal from external noise, feels pretty much like little kids play dough. It does no damage to the instrument and if placed in the proper location (This will be different with each instrument) it will work very well.
Tim Surrett has a splendid system for his bass featuring a K&K pick up with a small high end amp that has a line feed for FOH. Check out his sound on any "Balsam Range" show or recording: Tim is flat out one of the best!
Hugh

Last edited by hughshouse; 28th February 2018 at 02:17 PM..
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