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-   Remote Possibilities in Location Recording & Production (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-in-location-recording-amp-production/)
-   -   Trying to select a Great DAW for Editing classical music. (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-in-location-recording-amp-production/117422-trying-select-great-daw-editing-classical-music.html)

dseetoo 7th February 2020 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cohler (Post 14518135)
When editing, you adjust a fade, then you click space bar (or F9, F10) to audition it.

To what parameters are you referring? The video shows clearly how you change the length, start point, end point, shape, position etc... of the fade.



Well, a full blown crossfade editor not only should do what you stated, it should also be able to have presets, moving crossover point by typing in numbers, pre-define adjustment step to a certain duration, or multiplication of a certain duration, like video frame length (important if one needs to do a last minute editing for a video project) define editing mode such as with ripple or no ripple, pre-roll and post roll time, ability to let you pick which of the tracks out of the full tracks to edit, displaying all different time codes, etc…. These are just something I can think of without referring to any particular crossfade editor as a sample.

cohler 7th February 2020 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dseetoo (Post 14518207)
Well, a full blown crossfade editor not only should do what you stated, it should also be able to have presets, moving crossover point by typing in numbers, pre-define adjustment step to a certain duration, or multiplication of a certain duration, like video frame length (important if one needs to do a last minute editing for a video project) define editing mode such as with ripple or no ripple, pre-roll and post roll time, ability to let you pick which of the tracks out of the full tracks to edit, displaying all different time codes, etc…. These are just something I can think of without referring to any particular crossfade editor as a sample.

Yes, and it has all of the things you mention and more.

If you would like a demo, contact me at [email protected].

dseetoo 7th February 2020 06:36 PM

Can you post a full screen shot of it?

voltronic 8th February 2020 02:48 AM

Longtime Reaper fan here.

FWIW, Ripple Editing and Source-Destination / 4-point editing have been possible in Reaper for years now with the SWS Extension. Here is the direct link to Source/Destination functionality, but be sure check out the other sections of this guide.

https://urosbaric.com/reaper-classic...-point-editing

I use SWS Extensions on every project, but mostly for the Marker utilities and auto render functions. I don't record anything significant enough for source/destination edits, but maybe some of you would be interested in trying it.

Having said all that, I would be interested to try out the Cohler Classical solution.

cohler 8th February 2020 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dseetoo (Post 14518335)
Can you post a full screen shot of it?

I have posted several videos of it already. If you want a demo of it, contact me at [email protected].

As I said, it has everything you mentioned and more...

Yannick 11th February 2020 02:33 PM

An interesting exchange of messages has apparantly been moderated (?) - no clue to what happened.

To Cohler's defense, I am getting fed up by Pyramix, their lack of development and their forum, which has usually no answers.

I finally got me a Black Friday V12 native version. JBridge does not function anymore, even though it functions properly on V9 on Windows10. No support, as Merging officially does not support JBridge problems.

New bug: I did a mixdown to mp3, four times. Every time I end up with a file that is 50x too small, and sounds like it has a LPF at 800 Hz !
Broken functionality !

I did not get round to testing some old existing bugs (collapsed view, insert or cut silence, the bottom collapsed track tends to lose sync between the multitrack tracks, even when they are recorded in one interleaved pmf file !)
A bug that is still there: upon opening a project, the one track that is active (auto play/auto records etc enabled, no selection) remains active, EVEN when you click on another track. You can only disable the original track, by FIRST clicking on it and then clicking on another.

The list goes on, and nobody listens at Merging.

If I would have bought an expensive version, I would be all over their email & phone, giving them hell !

At the time, I also found their DDP solution ridiculously expensive. Now their standard native version has it for free, as well as (finally!) some timestretch and pitch shift ability ... A few years back, both options set you back 800 euro.

I refuse to give them serious money, until they sort out their buggy code.

If you want a stable recording platform, and decent editing, look at Pyramix Native essentials. Nothing more expensive.
If Reaper + the Cohler package is bug free, I would look into that first.

Problem is, most Pyramix users are shouting that they have no bugs, so how can we trust Reaper users ?

studer58 11th February 2020 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannick (Post 14526001)
Problem is, most Pyramix users are shouting that they have no bugs, so how can we trust Reaper users ?

Reaper users do a lot of shouting too, but remember that unlike Pyramix it's not claiming to be a specialized classical editor...it's a generalist DAW program which aims to be all things to all users (including video as well !)

Clearly Reaper can't hope to please all of the people all of the time, but it is responsive to bug repairs and implementing new functionality....but some things (like source/destination) have never risen to the level of developer priority, so individuals like Cohler and previous pioneers have posted scripts and workarounds to provide a modicum of better editing utility.

If you look at the changelog for new Reaper versions (6.x), it will give you an idea of what their rate of user responsiveness typically is: https://www.reaper.fm/download-old.php

Version 5 gives you an even better overall picture, over recent years (updates rolled out typically 1-2x per month) : https://www.reaper.fm/download-old.php?ver=5x

Yannick 11th February 2020 03:01 PM

I should try the 60 days demo, maybe I'll find the time in a couple of months.
Can you run 32 bit VST plugins on a 64 bit OS ? JBridge ?

On my newest PC, Resolve studio runs the jbridged version of Pristine Space (after some twiddling to get the UI to work), but Pyramix v12 relies on Jbridger.exe itself, and it does not load the plugin. v9 does (on a different W10 version ...)

studer58 11th February 2020 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannick (Post 14526037)
Can you run 32 bit VST plugins on a 64 bit OS ? JBridge ?

Yes Reaper does this bridging for you, it's one of the install options
You can even install Reaper on a portable USB thumb drive if you want to make it portable, it's only around 10-15 MB in download size.

Glance over the owner manual: https://www.reaper.fm/userguide/ReaperUserGuide603d.pdf

and QuickStart manual: https://www.reaper.fm/guides/REAPER%20Quick%20Start.pdf

Not forgetting the "How To" videos: https://www.reaper.fm/videos.php

NorseHorse 11th February 2020 04:24 PM

2 cents...

I don't have many regrets about recording, but not using Sequoia or Samplitude earlier is one of them.

Sequoia was a dramatic improvement in terms of speed and functionality, and I began using it when I joined the "The President's Own" in 2014 (about the same time I was starting to do more editing and album projects). Source-destination editing was fabulous, but I was doubly surprised to realize that my speed of mixing/editing/exporting basic recitals was markedly increased as well.

Plush 11th February 2020 05:05 PM

Fully on board with Sequoia here.

My friend Ryan Albrecht taught me the program. I'm still learning after coming from SADiE.

avillalta 11th February 2020 07:36 PM

I’ve been a happy Sequoia user since version 8 back in 2005. It’s an amazing platform that only keeps getting better.

bremusound 11th February 2020 07:47 PM

You can‘t go wrong with Samplitude/Sequoia.

dseetoo 11th February 2020 08:39 PM

I started to use Sequoia in 1999, version 5...

I even edited some recording while sitting next to a pool with a laptop that year. How cool was that?

fifthcircle 11th February 2020 10:18 PM

Started with Sequoia at version 5.x as well. Was pretty primitive, but compared to Sonic Solutions (which I had been on), it was pretty stunning as to what it could do.

-Ben

cohler 13th February 2020 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannick (Post 14526001)
A
If Reaper + the Cohler package is bug free, I would look into that first.

Happy to demo it for you and you can be a beta tester if you like. Contact me at [email protected].

GIACOMO-_ 22nd April 2020 05:50 PM

Pyramix for sell
 
Sorry for the spam, but maybe someone is interested:

https://reverb.com/item/33346283-mer...k-dxd-dsd-2014


:cowbell:

tourtelot 22nd April 2020 07:07 PM

The guys at Benaroya Hall use Pyramix for their Grammy winning CDs. They are The Pros.

I am not a pro (in the editing world) and I am also tied to a company and that company's clients that are all-in on Pro Tools. Me? I think that Pro Tools is okay, but Avid sucks. Just like a lot of folks. But it still is the "standard" in audio editing platforms.

If it were just me, on a dessert island, editing my awesome whistling concertos, I would have nothing on my computer but Reaper. It really is that good, and by far, the best "bang for the buck", maybe, in the world. Well maybe Centenario tequila; a story for another time.

(Who's drinking at work today? Raise your hand.)

I switched over to Reaper on location recording jobs to serve as my multi-track backup recorder on a dedicated MBP. After quite a while fighting with Pro Tools on location, and a couple of high-profile crashes (no good!), Reaper has been spotless since the switch.

FWIW.

D.

MayorAdamWest 23rd April 2020 12:14 AM

Not much love for Logic Pro here? For recording just 8-16 channels for orchestral, are the Merging solutions maybe overkill? It looks like they have a nice A/D as well.

David Spearritt 23rd April 2020 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MayorAdamWest (Post 14681233)
Not much love for Logic Pro here? For recording just 8-16 channels for orchestral, are the Merging solutions maybe overkill? It looks like they have a nice A/D as well.

This thread is about 4 point editing of classical music. kfhkh

bradh 23rd April 2020 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MayorAdamWest (Post 14681233)
Not much love for Logic Pro here? For recording just 8-16 channels for orchestral, are the Merging solutions maybe overkill? It looks like they have a nice A/D as well.

I've used Logic for recording and it's fine and was reliable for me. It's just not a great DAW for editing audio. It works, but there are better alternatives, and I don't like Mac laptops because they're not user-upgradeable (I do use a Mac desktop machine, but use Windows laptops). I use Reaper now for recording when I record to a laptop; most of the time I use a Sound Devices MixPre recorder with an external control surface and an iPad using Wingman to monitor levels.

My big issue with laptops is fan noise, since I'm usually recording myself and a singer or myself and another musician, so everything's in the same room as me: there's no control room. I looked hard at the Merging Anubis, but it has a fan, which is reportedly quiet but if I'm dealing with the possibility of a fan from the interface and a fan from the laptop kicking it's a gnawing worry in the back of my mind while recording. So the MixPre is my go-to option; I might replace it someday with a Sonosax R4+ but it's fine for now.

MayorAdamWest 23rd April 2020 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradh (Post 14681356)
I've used Logic for recording and it's fine and was reliable for me. It's just not a great DAW for editing audio. It works, but there are better alternatives, and I don't like Mac laptops because they're not user-upgradeable (I do use a Mac desktop machine, but use Windows laptops). I use Reaper now for recording when I record to a laptop; most of the time I use a Sound Devices MixPre recorder with an external control surface and an iPad using Wingman to monitor levels.

My big issue with laptops is fan noise, since I'm usually recording myself and a singer or myself and another musician, so everything's in the same room as me: there's no control room. I looked hard at the Merging Anubis, but it has a fan, which is reportedly quiet but if I'm dealing with the possibility of a fan from the interface and a fan from the laptop kicking it's a gnawing worry in the back of my mind while recording. So the MixPre is my go-to option; I might replace it someday with a Sonosax R4+ but it's fine for now.

I have a MixPre as well. How are you able to use your iPad with it? I couldn’t get my iPad Pro to see it as a USB interface. I’m just beginning my learning for on location classical (and maybe jazz) recording. I was leaning towards a Millennia Pre with something like the Apogee Symphony into a DAW. Logic Pro was my choice mainly because I helped build it while working at Apple. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t consider other DAWs though, which is why I found this thread interesting.

I’m not sure what 4 point editing is, but the OP seemed to start with a pretty general question around DAWs for classical?

bradh 23rd April 2020 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MayorAdamWest (Post 14681419)
I have a MixPre as well. How are you able to use your iPad with it? I couldn’t get my iPad Pro to see it as a USB interface.

Sorry I derailed this thread; I got it confused with the other thread on "what laptop do you use for location recording." Anyway, I don't record into the iPad, I use the iPad to run Sound Devices' free app, Wingman, which gives me a much bigger and better view of the meters, as well as allowing me to enter some metadata. It connects via Bluetooth. When I'm using the MixPre to record music, I usually set it up with Wingman on the iPad and a control surface for easier access to gain, pan, and the transport buttons.

As for four-point editing, the process of editing classical music in a DAW is a lot more like assembling a movie than it is like creating a comp (e.g., quick-swipe comping in Logic). In fact film and video editors use three- and four-point editing all day long: they use a source viewer to make edits into a destination track (the movie timeline), using three- and four-point editing techniques where you select in-and-out points on the timeline and cut in footage from the source clips using in-and-out points (for four-point edits). Three-point edits can be made using various combinations of in- or out-points in the timeline or the source viewer.

If you've only recorded a single stereo track, you could actually do source-destination editing in a free NLE like DaVinci Resolve, but the lack of a crossfade editor limits its utility for music (and if you recorded multiple tracks, such as spot mics for all or some of the instruments, it's not going to work in an NLE). I've used source-destination editing in Resolve to edit voiceover, just as an experiment, and it works well for that.

pauljisaacs 23rd April 2020 03:43 PM

You can use MixPre as an audio interface to your iPad by connecting the MixPre USB-A port to the Lightning port.

bradh 23rd April 2020 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pauljisaacs (Post 14682368)
You can use MixPre as an audio interface to your iPad by connecting the MixPre USB-A port to the Lightning port.

Hi Paul -- I think the poster said he had an iPad Pro, which has a USB-C port, not Lightning. I would have thought connecting via USB-C would work for recording into an iPad Pro, especially since the MixPre is a class-compliant device that doesn't require drivers. I don't have an iPad Pro so can't test it myself.

pauljisaacs 23rd April 2020 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradh (Post 14682416)
Hi Paul -- I think the poster said he had an iPad Pro, which has a USB-C port, not Lightning. I would have thought connecting via USB-C would work for recording into an iPad Pro, especially since the MixPre is a class-compliant device that doesn't require drivers. I don't have an iPad Pro so can't test it myself.

I don't have an iPad Pro either, but I would still bet on a USB-A to USB-C connection.

MayorAdamWest 23rd April 2020 07:10 PM

As for 4-point, I see it's source/destination. I just hadn't heard that terminology. I'm quite familiar with Final Cut Pro, having helped build it. The downside with several of the apps listed in this DAW thread is that they require Windows, or work best in Windows.

bradh 23rd April 2020 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MayorAdamWest (Post 14682847)
I'm quite familiar with Final Cut Pro, having helped build it. The downside with several of the apps listed in this DAW thread is that they require Windows, or work best in Windows.

It's odd that the best classical-editing DAWs are all Windows based, as Windows is not an optimal platform, out of the box, for working with audio. Once you make all the necessary tweaks and changes it's fine, but it seems crazy to have to do all that (see the five-page Windows Configuration Guide for Pyramix, for example). Once you have that set up, you have a generally reliable system, especially if you never update it and keep it off the internet. You could say that for the Mac too, though. Catalina has not been a great experience for many people in the audio and video world, although I have no complaints with it myself.

For Mac, the only DAW capable of source-destination editing is Reaper, either with some of the legacy scripts developed over the years by various volunteers or the new Cohler Classical system for Reaper that should be released in the not-too-distant future after beta testing is complete. Reaper has been rock-solid for me on Mac and Windows. There's a perception that it runs better on Windows but I have no idea where that perception came from. It's great on Mac.

There are people using other DAWs for classical editing and mastering, including the open-source Ardour (arguably one of the most efficient DAWs for editing audio), although Ardour lacks source-destination editing and spectral editing. There's a harpsichordist and recording engineer named Christopher Hampson who does all his recording and editing in Ardour now on Linux; I think he's using Audacity for spectral editing.

MayorAdamWest 23rd April 2020 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradh (Post 14683169)
Quote:

Originally Posted by MayorAdamWest (Post 14682847)
I'm quite familiar with Final Cut Pro, having helped build it. The downside with several of the apps listed in this DAW thread is that they require Windows, or work best in Windows.

It's odd that the best classical-editing DAWs are all Windows based, as Windows is not an optimal platform, out of the box, for working with audio. Once you make all the necessary tweaks and changes it's fine, but it seems crazy to have to do all that (see the five-page Windows Configuration Guide for Pyramix, for example). Once you have that set up, you have a generally reliable system, especially if you never update it and keep it off the internet. You could say that for the Mac too, though. Catalina has not been a great experience for many people in the audio and video world, although I have no complaints with it myself.

For Mac, the only DAW capable of source-destination editing is Reaper, either with some of the legacy scripts developed over the years by various volunteers or the new Cohler Classical system for Reaper that should be released in the not-too-distant future after beta testing is complete.

There are people using other DAWs for classical editing and mastering, including the open-source Ardour (arguably one of the most efficient DAWs for editing audio), although Ardour lacks source-destination editing and spectral editing. There's a harpsichordist and recording engineer named Christopher Hampson who does all his recording and editing in Ardour now on Linux; I think he's using Audacity for spectral editing.

All the more curious is Merging even admits on their site that Macs appear to be the main laptop of choice for location recording, and then explain how to use bootcamp. I suspect this is legacy from an era when there were far more Windows software developers (programmers) so making Windows software was cheaper for a company than trying to find someone who knew how to write code for a Mac.

bradh 23rd April 2020 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MayorAdamWest (Post 14683190)
All the more curious is Merging even admits on their site that Macs appear to be the main laptop of choice for location recording, and then explain how to use bootcamp. I suspect this is legacy from an era when there were far more Windows software developers (programmers) so making Windows software was cheaper for a company than trying to find someone who knew how to write code for a Mac.

Could be, although it could also be that Windows is a better choice for an Ethernet-based networking environment like Ravenna. Macs don't even come with Ethernet ports anymore!