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Trying to select a Great DAW for Editing classical music.
Old 31st January 2020
  #31
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jnorman's Avatar
Cohler- just watched a couple of your videos, and it looks very interesting. The 4-point and global rippling look very user friendly. I was wondering when reaper might start supporting a more track-group oriented platform. Thanks for posting.
Old 31st January 2020
  #32
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I'd be interested to know more about who Cohler is, what is the relationship with Cockos/Reaper, and their fee structure. They need an 'About' button on their website. It does look impressive though...
Old 31st January 2020
  #33
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https://jonathancohler.com/
https://ongaku-records.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Cohler

Last edited by David Spearritt; 31st January 2020 at 11:55 PM..
Old 31st January 2020
  #34
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Many (ok, a minority ) Reaper users have been calling for S/D editing for a very long time, and for many years (most posts in this thread date from 2007 !) had to put up with clunky workarounds, which sorta worked...but weren't as evolved as the Cohler system eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utSTd8huEoM

So perhaps we finally have something approaching the ease and efficiency of Pyramix or Sequoia ?

Does installing this Cohler system 'break' the standard installation of Reaper (ie can one still record, write automation, consolidate tracks etc) or does it work alongside it as a separate, editing-only entity (perhaps as a portable install, on a usb thumb drive, for example) ?

I'm wondering (haven't read the full article yet...) if this is pointing in a similar direction for Reaper editing ? : https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...s-using-reaper
Old 31st January 2020
  #35
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
He’s a clarinetist.
That's interesting but does he write code, is he working with Cockos' blessing (so that future updates of Reaper won't 'break' his shell program), is he selling the software or just a subscription? All things I can't find out from his website! I would much prefer to get this functionality from a future update of Reaper than to buy into a parallel software package but I guess there has not been enough classical music Reaper users to justify Cockos undertaking this development themselves? I'll have to take a look at the SOS article studer58 cites...
Old 31st January 2020
  #36
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Plush's Avatar
Strictly a move aimed at price.
Old 31st January 2020
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Strictly a move aimed at price.
Wrong Plush... Reaper has a cost for using the software without trial nagware restrictions, which happens to be at 2 price levels....depending on the income one derives from using the DAW. It's based upon an honesty system of disclosure, down to the individual...imagine that !

That the entry price is substantially lower than the gold standard DAW-ware you're familiar with is fortunate for Reaper users, nothing more than that. It's an advantageous spin-off of Reaper's adaptability that people like Cohler can modify the code to serve the needs of S/D editing....something long awaited by classical music users of Reaper.

As you can see from his videos, this is a relatively early notification, seeking beta-testers. Strictly a move aimed at enhanced functionality ...which looks poised to refine itself substantially as it meets the specific requirements of classical recordists. Does your gold standard DAW-ware permit this kind of user input and evolution ? Why not ?

Sounds like sour grapes...if you're going to comment from the sidelines, at least give credit to Cohler for what he's achieved (and will likely evolve further in time), and offer encouragement or enthusiasm that there's yet another emerging editing tool on the landscape for classical recording folk.

Pyramix/Sadie/ Sequoia users looking jealously over their shoulders at an impertinent new upstart...maybe even a perceived threat to their smug hegemony ?
Old 31st January 2020
  #38
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i'm wondering why editing of classical music should be any different from editing of any other genre? all my gear is genre agnostic.

i started with fairlight ages ago and got to work with most any workstation, from dyaxis to sadie - still using nuendo (since v2) as my main plattform.
Old 31st January 2020
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Pyramix/Sadie/ Sequoia users looking jealously over their shoulders at an impertinent new upstart...maybe even a perceived threat to their smug hegemony ?
Not really, I watched the 4 point editing video and it is still a long, long way from approaching Pyramix's power and cross fade editor productivity.

What is being sold, macros/templates for Reaper?
Old 31st January 2020
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
No, I watched the 4 point editing video and it is still a long, long way from approaching Pyramix's power and cross fade editor productivity. Sorry.
Agreed, but keep watching this space anyways...as I wrote above, just embarking on beta testing and all that, so early days...
Old 1st February 2020
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
I'd be interested to know more about who Cohler is, what is the relationship with Cockos/Reaper, and their fee structure. They need an 'About' button on their website. It does look impressive though...
No relationship with Cockos. Haven't decided pricing yet. We are in beta test. But it will be MUCH less than Pyramix, Pro-Tools, Sequoia, SADiE etc...

Website is brand new. We are in beta now... We definitely will have an about button when it is done.
Old 1st February 2020
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Many (ok, a minority ) Reaper users have been calling for S/D editing for a very long time, and for many years (most posts in this thread date from 2007 !) had to put up with clunky workarounds, which sorta worked...but weren't as evolved as the Cohler system eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utSTd8huEoM

So perhaps we finally have something approaching the ease and efficiency of Pyramix or Sequoia ?

Does installing this Cohler system 'break' the standard installation of Reaper (ie can one still record, write automation, consolidate tracks etc) or does it work alongside it as a separate, editing-only entity (perhaps as a portable install, on a usb thumb drive, for example) ?

I'm wondering (haven't read the full article yet...) if this is pointing in a similar direction for Reaper editing ? : https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...s-using-reaper
The code runs on top of Reaper and as it says redoes the menus, keyboard assignments etc and adds/fixes 100s of things.

It does not however effect any other existing functions or capabilities. You can still record as always etc...

Loading Cohler Classical is basically a one-step load of a configuration file.

If you want a demo and/or would like to be part of the beta test, contact me directly at [email protected].
Old 1st February 2020
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
That's interesting but does he write code, is he working with Cockos' blessing (so that future updates of Reaper won't 'break' his shell program), is he selling the software or just a subscription? All things I can't find out from his website! I would much prefer to get this functionality from a future update of Reaper than to buy into a parallel software package but I guess there has not been enough classical music Reaper users to justify Cockos undertaking this development themselves? I'll have to take a look at the SOS article studer58 cites...
Cohler Classical is code that uses the published Reaper API. So it will always work on top of Reaper. It only runs on top of Reaper.

We will not be selling subscriptions. There will be a price for individual users and a price for business users.

We have no association with Cockos.

Cockos will never write any software like this, because the market is too small for them to look at.

Email me if you want more info and a demo. [email protected]
Old 1st February 2020
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Not really, I watched the 4 point editing video and it is still a long, long way from approaching Pyramix's power and cross fade editor productivity.

What is being sold, macros/templates for Reaper?
What is being sold is not macros/templates but more than 5000 lines of code and 100s of new functions etc...

Having been a Pyramix user for two decades, I can authoritatively say that you are simply incorrect. Editing on Cohler Classical is much faster, simpler, responsive, and streamlined than on Pyramix or any other DAW on the market. And infinitely more customizable.

If you would like a demo, email me directly at [email protected]
Old 1st February 2020
  #45
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This looks exciting thanks Jonathan. I will register for a demo.
At an initial $3k for Pyramix Native (similar for Sadie or Sequoia ), plus the on-going annual membership fees these DAWs demand - itself several times the cost of Reaper - a cheaper fully functional way of getting that 4-point editing would be great. I need to check out that Reaper covers the other bases too - stability, built-in FX (noise removal?) - but everyone seems pretty enthusiastic about Reaper.

L
Old 1st February 2020
  #46
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Unless I'm missing something, I think this would be the only native SD-editing/crossfade-editing solution available for Mac users (and Linux users if it proves to work in the Linux version of Reaper). Pyramix, SADie, and Sequoia are all Windows-only apps; you can of course run them on a Mac using Boot Camp or via virtualization software, but having a native Mac solution is a draw.

I'm glad to see Mr. Cohler has toned down the heavy-handed marketing a bit; the initial announcements I saw on the Reaper forum were over the top and likely alienated a lot of potential users (myself included).
Old 2nd February 2020
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cohler View Post
Having been a Pyramix user for two decades, I can authoritatively say that you are simply incorrect. Editing on Cohler Classical is much faster, simpler, responsive, and streamlined than on Pyramix or any other DAW on the market.
Thanks Jonathan. I use waveform visual queues initially line up the from and to clips in time in two separate lanes in the Pyramix cross fade window, one on top of the other, then I listen. You seem to be sliding the from clip into the to clip in one lane as you cannot see the history or future of the two clips around the crossfade. I would find this a deal breaker for me, ie not having the two lanes separate.

Quote:
And infinitely more customizable.
I don't want to customise anything in software if I can help it.
Attached Thumbnails
Trying to select a Great DAW for Editing classical music.-fourpoint.jpg  
Old 2nd February 2020
  #48
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The two lanes overlayed as in soundscape would be much more clear and precise.
I finally went from pyramix 9 to 12. It took me about two minutes to run into a bug that has been there since v6.

Stupid developers.
Old 2nd February 2020
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
It took me about two minutes to run into a bug that has been there since v6. Stupid developers.
Hi Yannick, what bug did you find? I haven't noticed anything in the xfade editor yet?
Old 2nd February 2020
  #50
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If you open a project with several takes onseveral duplicate multitracks, collapsed, auto solo on. Press play and click on another track than the one in solo, you will hear two tracks playing. The original track remians active until you click on it and then on another one...

Small one, but still there after six years... so i am pretty sure there will be far worse still lingering around.

Also, on w10 and v9 I was able to make pristine space work with jbridge, with all kinds of magic and tricks. On v12, no success, it scans the vst ok, but refuses to put the vst in a mixer. And the manual states clearly they give ZERO support for this, even if they broke it themselves ...
Old 2nd February 2020
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Thanks Jonathan. I use waveform visual queues initially line up the from and to clips in time in two separate lanes in the Pyramix cross fade window, one on top of the other, then I listen. You seem to be sliding the from clip into the to clip in one lane as you cannot see the history or future of the two clips around the crossfade. I would find this a deal breaker for me, ie not having the two lanes separate.


I don't want to customise anything in software if I can help it.
Thank you for the question, David.

I am very familiar with the two-stream window from Pyramix having produced dozens of recordings on it over the past years.

In Cohler Classical, I use visual cues on every edit I do in addition to my ear, because every edit you do in classical music MUST be auditioned at least once or twice.

You can see both the incoming and outgoing waveform underneath the fade at the same time. Furthermore, because it is drag interface, you can drag the fades out from the center point to get a closer look before you drag them in, and all of this takes less than 1 second.

More importantly, because all of the following factors:
  1. the entire interface is draggable
  2. you can enter and exit the fade mode each in one instantaneous keystroke (F to enter, ESC to exit)
  3. the fade edit mode is not in a separate window as in Pyramix which must be closed by a mouse click (which requires extra time)
  4. various of the fade options MUST be adjusted with mouse clicks and typing in Pyramix, and
  5. the time to open and close the fade-edit window is slow in Pyramix by comparison
Each fade edit ends up taking MUCH more time in Pyramix.

When I developed mine, I considered whether the two-stream versus one-stream might be a problem, but quickly realized it is actually a huge boon in SPEEDING up the edit process.

I would be happy to demonstrate it for you, showing all the visible transient editing I have just described.

Indeed I would also be happy to challenge anyone to an "editing race" on some multitrack track-group audio of acoustic music to prove that Cohler Classical is MUCH faster than the Pyramix or any other fade editing methodology on the market.

To answer your second comment, while Reaper is innately infinitely more customizable than anything on the market. Cohler Classical (which runs on top of Reaper) is already COMPLETELY customized, so you don't need to customize ANYTHING to immediately start editing any multitrack track-group audio project.

Contact me if you would like a demo. [email protected]
Old 2nd February 2020
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradh View Post
Unless I'm missing something, I think this would be the only native SD-editing/crossfade-editing solution available for Mac users (and Linux users if it proves to work in the Linux version of Reaper). Pyramix, SADie, and Sequoia are all Windows-only apps; you can of course run them on a Mac using Boot Camp or via virtualization software, but having a native Mac solution is a draw.

I'm glad to see Mr. Cohler has toned down the heavy-handed marketing a bit; the initial announcements I saw on the Reaper forum were over the top and likely alienated a lot of potential users (myself included).
Bradh,

There was NO "heavy-handed" marketing. What does that even mean? If using large fonts for titles, is "heavy handed marketing" then I guess every marketer in the world is "heavy-handed" in the publishing business, we call it making things easy to read, and readers appreciate that.

Based on the dozens and dozens of positive comments and contacts I have received from audio people all over the world, it is unfortunate that a few people annoyed about font usage who hover on these fora choose to smear me and the product online having never seen or used it.

Maybe instead of criticizing others for use of fonts and colors, perhaps discussion of substance would be more useful?

In any case, if you want a demo or would like to join the beta test team, contact me directly at [email protected]
Old 2nd February 2020
  #53
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Cohler,

I like your crossfade editor, as it overlays as I was used to in Soundscape.
However, the colors change to red&green while dragging. IMO it would be useful if they were always red&green.

What I liked to do in doing crossfades in Soundscape,eg. in FF piano solo passages with lots of pedal, is sliding both waveforms on top of each other until the moment you see both some fundamental and some harmonics coincide, or the HF ripple. In 90% of the cases that would be an undetactable crossfade, even without auditioning it ! (15 years of experience does that)

After 7 years of Pyramix, it has become clear it will never work in Pyramix as is, without auditioning 5-10 times to get it right, most of the time (in difficult edits like these !)

Question2: how do you represent the waveform ? In Pyramix the visual representation is pretty useless. Again, the example of FF piano with pedal. The waveform is generally a big chaotic mess, however, the way it was calculated in Soundscape is that HF content makes the waveform rippled/fatter, so even in busy passages you can still detect the moment a hammer strikes a string (the HF ripple riding on the waveform gets thicker !!!). Looking at your short demo, I think it might be more clear, more Soundscape-like than the current implementation in Pyramix.

The problem with Pyramix is, although it is very stable, and very well implemented, there are some issues and some bugs AND THE DEVELOPERS DO NOT LISTEN. AT ALL ! I tried briefly 5 years ago, and gave up.

I was a Soundscape Beta tester; they had great response, bug solving most often within 48 hours. I have zero interest in beta testing Pyramix, with their attitude towards user feedback.

I am not a Reaper user, but maybe am interested to test. They give a 60 days grace period, which should suffice. Does anyone know how the stability is during (live) tracking sessions ? On Windows ?
Old 2nd February 2020
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
I am not a Reaper user, but maybe am interested to test. They give a 60 days grace period, which should suffice. Does anyone know how the stability is during (live) tracking sessions ? On Windows ?
All Reaper users know it to be unconditionally stable...it does not crash during live tracking recording. This was/is applicable to Windows XP, 7, 8.1, 10, MacOSX and Linux...any other requirement ?

Last edited by studer58; 3rd February 2020 at 12:38 AM..
Old 3rd February 2020
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cohler View Post
I use visual cues on every edit I do in addition to my ear, because every edit you do in classical music MUST be auditioned at least once or twice.
Like you I am very familiar with this too. But my first alignment is always visual, matching up time domain waveforms in the two takes. Most of the time the audition following just confirms I chose the correct waveform patterns to align. Very rarely I have to slide.

Quote:
You can see both the incoming and outgoing waveform underneath the fade at the same time. Furthermore, because it is drag interface, you can drag the fades out from the center point to get a closer look before you drag them in, and all of this takes less than 1 second.
But your video example was somewhat trial and error, you slid then auditioned, then slid again. I don't work this way. I position visually, audition, if it is audible I go hunt for another better crossfade location, I don't keep sliding and auditioning.

Quote:
Each fade edit ends up taking MUCH more time in Pyramix.
Not convinced of this from the example yet. Also I am not in and have no interest in an editing race. I like software to be easy to use, have lots of control over the waveforms and accurate positioning so that my edit is as accurate as possible. Pyramix works very well for me. Editing a 32 channel recording like this is amazing in Pyramix.

Quote:
Contact me if you would like a demo. [email protected]
It looks great for Reaper users, no question, and will bring a lot more people on board with source destination editing which is a great thing.

Last edited by David Spearritt; 3rd February 2020 at 12:35 AM..
Old 3rd February 2020
  #56
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From the video, I don’t see the crossfade editor itself. How do you change the parameters on the fly while you audition?
Old 3rd February 2020
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Like you I am very familiar with this too. But my first alignment is always visual, matching up time domain waveforms in the two takes. Most of the time the audition following just confirms I chose the correct waveform patterns to align. Very rarely I have to slide.


But your video example was somewhat trial and error, you slid then auditioned, then slid again. I don't work this way. I position visually, audition, if it is audible I go hunt for another better crossfade location, I don't keep sliding and auditioning.


Not convinced of this from the example yet. Also I am not in and have no interest in an editing race. I like software to be easy to use, have lots of control over the waveforms and accurate positioning so that my edit is as accurate as possible. Pyramix works very well for me. Editing a 32 channel recording like this is amazing in Pyramix.


It looks great for Reaper users, no question, and will bring a lot more people on board with source destination editing which is a great thing.
Yes, and my first alignment is always visual too. But in classical multitrack recording, you NEVER leave an edit without at least one audition. Especially, if you are talking about commercial CDs, which is my area. Most of my edits are one audition and done as well, but there is never any edit that has not been auditioned.

I know Pyramix works well. I used it for 15 years. Cohler Classical is much faster, however, and I would be happy to demo for you rather than discuss theory. But if you are not interested in the additional speed and ease of use, that's your choice of course.

I just finished a couple of 40-track projects in a small fraction of the time that I spent in the past on Pyramix. I would say it was easily a factor of three to five times faster overall.

Contact me if you are interested in more info. [email protected]
Old 3rd February 2020
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LinL View Post
At an initial $3k for Pyramix Native (similar for Sadie or Sequoia ), ...L
Pyramix Native Essentials is $450 USD. Absolute bargain for what it is and does.
Old 3rd February 2020
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Pyramix Native Essentials is $450 USD. Absolute bargain for what it is and does.
Yes and Cohler Classical will come out around $100 for a personal license.
Old 7th February 2020
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
From the video, I don’t see the crossfade editor itself. How do you change the parameters on the fly while you audition?
When editing, you adjust a fade, then you click space bar (or F9, F10) to audition it.

To what parameters are you referring? The video shows clearly how you change the length, start point, end point, shape, position etc... of the fade.
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