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Old 17th July 2017
  #31
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Plush's Avatar
It was never a mystery that only a few companies supply chips to converter manufacturers.

I'm not worshiping at the altar of brands or of pictures of the insides of a piece of equipment.

Your post is interesting for those people who do not realize that the converters listed use the same engine. I bet some posters didn't know about that. But I don't think that manufacturers are trying to trick people into believing they developed everything in house.

I'm trying to talk about the forward march of better sounding converters which get us closer to the sound of the line out from our analog consoles or Rens Heijnis equipment.

It is FOR SURE that curious engineers who keep up with new products are noticing that recent converter design is getting better and better--on a march towards transparency. And progress without resorting to gain-staging!

Certainly, as a goal, transparency is NOWHERE NEAR met yet, but progress towards that goal is certainly noticed here at my place.

We all know that it is the design surrounding the chip that makes the difference.
Old 20th July 2017
  #32
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
We all know that it is the design surrounding the chip that makes the difference.
If this is what we all know, then why do you make the obviously false claim that "There have been vast improvements in a/d chips, ..."? You're blowing a lot of smoke into this discussion with your last post, making assumptions of things that were never claimed here. I was trying to help others to understand what makes a difference in judging what makes a converter sound good. Don't trump the debate into some stupid ego-battle!

DAD AX24 is a design from 2007, by the way. And "the next step on the way to total transparency" QES Labs PAD-2 uses an AD chip from 2006. So it even seems the cutting edge AD-converters of this moment preferably use OLD A/D-chip designs to get their best sound.
Old 20th July 2017
  #33
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Plush's Avatar
No, not a battle of any sort. I was just posting an educated opinion. Don't seek drama where there is none.
Old 21st July 2017
  #34
Seems to me that there's a semantic difference, depending how "converter" is used...
If "converter" is the analog electronics from the input all the way to the output of the actual A/D chip (essentially the entire device)... then I side with Plush - I believe there have been improvements in the devices.
If "converter" is the A/D chip itself, then I disagree - the actual chipsets used have been optimized for quite a while.
Old 21st July 2017
  #35
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tourtelot's Avatar
Gotta consider the whole box, right?

D.
Old 21st July 2017
  #36
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Gotta consider the whole box, right?

D.
Of course you have to consider the whole box, but you may be reading this post of mine once again, to see that recent developments can only be partial improvements, at best: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/12740745-post26.html

The whole point is that highest quality A/D-chips were already available ten years ago and analog stages could have been as good as they sometimes are in new designs, because the tech was already available. Only clock technology has really become more affordable for a serious stepup, compared to older designs. So, the engineers who went out of their way ten years ago with their analog design will not be bested by current designs, although a newer clock may make a jump forward in matters of transparency and naturalness. Claiming that recent A/D-chip development and somehow "new" technology in the analog stages is the cause of a current jump forward in converter quality (the box) is therefore not correct. There have been many designs though that simply were "good enough" at the time and we now want them replaced by better designs in search of the ultimate sound. Many parties try to jump into that niche of needs with new boxes, that are for the most part built out of known tech. In that sense Plush and I agree (there are more better converters now), but we have different stories of what the new boxes consist of and whether it would be possible to use an "old" converter and make it sound "new". Clear now?
Old 22nd July 2017
  #37
Deleted User
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.....and what about designs like the RME ADI-2PRO? RME specifies it can run both AD and DA at a max sample rate of 768kHz.
Old 22nd July 2017
  #38
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esldude's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adorno View Post
.....and what about designs like the RME ADI-2PRO? RME specifies it can run both AD and DA at a max sample rate of 768kHz.
What is the possible benefit to those sample rates? I don't see any or hear any. They might improve the stock price of HD makers.

My guess is they used new chips that have the ability to run at those rates so why not. More equals better for marketing so yeah just add that on.
Old 24th July 2017
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post
What is the possible benefit to those sample rates? I don't see any or hear any. They might improve the stock price of HD makers.

My guess is they used new chips that have the ability to run at those rates so why not. More equals better for marketing so yeah just add that on.
This rate seems to be for the Measurement crowd who wished for up-to 384khz response.

So, it just might be science and not marketing.
Old 24th July 2017
  #40
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Plush's Avatar
Super clock rates sound great. I use them with my DAD converter.

384 KHz. clock recording sounds liquid and flowing with no edge to tone.

Filters acting far above audible frequencies makes a big difference.

Can use MAGIX daws, (Sequoia and ProX3) Acoustica, and Pmix to record this way.
Old 24th July 2017
  #41
I am enjoying the Merging Pyramix setup with DXD project mixdown [352.8k] sounds noticeably wider and broader/larger than 192K. As does 384K sampling rate.
Old 26th July 2017
  #42
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post
What is the possible benefit to those sample rates? I don't see any or hear any. They might improve the stock price of HD makers.

My guess is they used new chips that have the ability to run at those rates so why not. More equals better for marketing so yeah just add that on.
Bats!
Old 27th July 2017
  #43
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
Thank you for your compliments. I am usually not very satisfied with my own results, so it is nice to know someone else enjoys them.

You stated: "Deep soundstage, transparent as oxygen 1 inch from your face, excellent bass". For that idea I can only think of the Mytek. It's not clinically cold, but has a sharp transient texture and therefore sounds a little "hard" with some instruments. Generally I use it in conjunction with softening preamps, in order to avoid mushyness in the chain. But with a Gordon I would never use it as the Mytek would (over-)enhance its already pinsharp imaging. No breaking glass in my ears, please.

The Lake People converter has more subtle transients and fits their F355 preamp really well, as that model can be rather hard with Mytek. Because of the subtle transients the naturalness is more like we hear things, but only when the mic and preamp have not lost that info. With TM101's I usually link directly to the Lake People converters, especially with string instruments. M296 might however invite me to try the Mytek in this case, as it already is a very smooth mic and some bite could be desirable.

Recently I added a CC2 clock to the Lake People converter and it worked really well with it. (The Lake People has a fast locking clock which makes it very suitable for better external clocking.) Just a notch more image sharpening and linear highs extension. Perfectly controlled lows. Absolutely wonderful sound at mastering level. (I also tried the CC2 with a Mytek 8x192 ADDA, but the sound changed so much that I had to mix differently. Creepily transparent and "naked" sound. And for those who want to know: the CC2 did not bring any improvement to the Hilo with synchrolock on.)

I find both Mytek and Lake People to have a musical quality, but in a different way. For my own use I could be perfectly happy with the Lake People and CC2, as it is the most effortless, "analog" sounding combo without any coloration. But whether this is what your ears want to hear too, I cannot judge.
I've been looking into getting a stereo ADC and this thread, and your posts, seem to have a lot of information related to my goals. I have a home recording setup primarily for stereo recording of steel string acoustic guitar solo fingerstyle arrangements. I usually prefer a spaced pair arrangement using omni mics. I'm currently using a pair of Gefell M296S's into a pair of Speck 5.0 MicPre's into a Motu Ultralite AVB. On the playback side I'm using Equator D5's or Westone in ear monitors. My typical goal of recording is for realism; getting recordings as close as possible to the source's sound. As this is just a home recording hobby I'm trying to keep costs down, so hoping to buy used. I haven't used/demoed any external ADCs, and right now I'm considering the Lavry AD10 or the Mytek Stereo 192 (kind of leaning towards the Lavry, but that's only based on reading forums).

Any thoughts or recommendations for me?
Old 27th July 2017
  #44
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck_S View Post
I've been looking into getting a stereo ADC and this thread, and your posts, seem to have a lot of commonality to my goals. I have a home recording setup primarily for stereo recording of solo acoustic guitar arrangements. I usually prefer a spaced pair arrangement using omni mics. I'm currently using a pair of Gefell M296S's into a pair of Speck 5.0 MicPre's into a Motu Ultralite AVB. On the playback side I'm using Equator D5's or Westone in ear monitors. My typical goal of recording is for realism; getting recordings as close as possible to the source's sound. As this is just a home recording hobby I'm trying to keep costs down, so hoping to buy used. I haven't used/demoed any external ADCs, and right now I'm considering either a Lavry AD10 or a Mytek Stereo 192 (kind of leaning towards the Lavry, but that's only based on reading forums).

Any thoughts or recommendations for me?
The M296's are smooth microphones, so I think you could be very happy with the articulate Mytek Stereo192 ADC, in order not to smooth out the signal too much. I like that combo myself. Compared against the samples of the AD10 that I have heard I would choose the Mytek.
Old 14th December 2017
  #45
Deleted 307cb3c
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
Recently a number of affordable new clocks has come out (Mutec, Grimm CC2, Lake People DAT RS 05) employing femto clocks.
I just came across Lake People DAT RS 05 and saw the FEMTO Clock option but couldn't find any info about Grimm or Mutec using FEMTO Clocks. Am I missing something here?

Last edited by Deleted 307cb3c; 16th December 2017 at 06:53 PM..
Old 25th February 2020
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
There has been very little development in AD-chips in the past ten/fifteen years. (There has been some real improvement of DA-chips though, so this post is not about DA-converters.) So, when we are speaking about AD-converters the differences are in the analog stage before the converter chip and the quality of the clocking. Unfortunately no really new techniques have been developed in the field of the analog stages, but there are designs that make a bigger effort to get a better signal to the chips than others. This means that AD-converters of considerable age can sound as good as very recent models and some older converters that already have a very good analog stage can be brought up to a stellar new level by adding a very good clock to them. Recently a number of affordable new clocks has come out (Mutec, Grimm CC2, Lake People DAT RS 05) employing femto clocks. There's not always a need to buy the entire package all over again, in the belief that you are buying a "new converter".
I know this thread is from years ago but do you think a Mytek 96 blueface is worth buying used in 2020? or should I go for a Lake People RS 04?? Will use it to capture live takes of drums and guitar playing/jamming rock from an analogue set up. I've spent hours researching and you seem like the person to ask!
Old 25th February 2020
  #47
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamnxtdoor View Post
I know this thread is from years ago but do you think a Mytek 96 blueface is worth buying used in 2020? or should I go for a Lake People RS 04?? Will use it to capture live takes of drums and guitar playing/jamming rock from an analogue set up. I've spent hours researching and you seem like the person to ask!
Of those two options I would prefer the Lake People ADC. It has the more natural sound of the two, particularly when connected to a Grimm CC2.
Old 25th February 2020
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
Of those two options I would prefer the Lake People ADC. It has the more natural sound of the two, particularly when connected to a Grimm CC2.
Thanks so much for replying Earcatcher I really appreciate it, I've read a lot of your posts regarding adc technology and so if I can't afford the Grimm (because the Lake People will max out my budget), can I ask do you still think it's worth me paying twice the price for the Lake People over the used much older Mytek - would the difference be worth the extra money? Thanks again for the advice it's so hard to find info on the Lake People!
Old 25th February 2020
  #49
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamnxtdoor View Post
Thanks so much for replying Earcatcher I really appreciate it, I've read a lot of your posts regarding adc technology and so if I can't afford the Grimm (because the Lake People will max out my budget), can I ask do you still think it's worth me paying twice the price for the Lake People over the used much older Mytek - would the difference be worth the extra money? Thanks again for the advice it's so hard to find info on the Lake People!
Without the Grimm the Lake People is still the more natural of the two. You could add a Grimm later if you wanted. However, converters are always about inches and they make up only a small part of the final sound. I have no idea what your level of proficiency in recording technique is and at which height you put your personal bar. The Mytek most definitely is a fine converter as well. I'm running different converters next to each other and simply try to use them in situations where their individual strengths play out best. Having said that, if I were to invest from scratch in a bunch of AD-converters I would probably go for the Lake People F444 in multiples. The four channels I have of them now are always used for my most critical channels. Excellent natural and neutral converters that do not mess with the genuine character of the original signal.
Old 25th February 2020
  #50
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How about a Sonosax M2D2?
You can use it as just a high-quality stereo ADC, or as high-quality preamp plus ADC plus USB interface capable of recording
to a computer or even a Smartphone.
It’s very small, portable (runs on internal rechargeable battery, or USB power or standard Hi-Rose power supply).
Old 25th February 2020
  #51
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
Without the Grimm the Lake People is still the more natural of the two. You could add a Grimm later if you wanted. However, converters are always about inches and they make up only a small part of the final sound. I have no idea what your level of proficiency in recording technique is and at which height you put your personal bar. The Mytek most definitely is a fine converter as well. I'm running different converters next to each other and simply try to use them in situations where their individual strengths play out best. Having said that, if I were to invest from scratch in a bunch of AD-converters I would probably go for the Lake People F444 in multiples. The four channels I have of them now are always used for my most critical channels. Excellent natural and neutral converters that do not mess with the genuine character of the original signal.
Thanks for your sage advice! I emailed them today about ordering one so most likely will have one very soon!! Thanks again... Your help has been invaluable!
Old 25th February 2020
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
How about a Sonosax M2D2?
You can use it as just a high-quality stereo ADC, or as high-quality preamp plus ADC plus USB interface capable of recording
to a computer or even a Smartphone.
It’s very small, portable (runs on internal rechargeable battery, or USB power or standard Hi-Rose power supply).
Looks very good but I'm looking for a dedicated adc, thanks for the advice though
Old 27th February 2020
  #53
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck_S View Post
I've been looking into getting a stereo ADC and this thread, and your posts, seem to have a lot of information related to my goals. I have a home recording setup primarily for stereo recording of steel string acoustic guitar solo fingerstyle arrangements. I usually prefer a spaced pair arrangement using omni mics. I'm currently using a pair of Gefell M296S's into a pair of Speck 5.0 MicPre's into a Motu Ultralite AVB. On the playback side I'm using Equator D5's or Westone in ear monitors. My typical goal of recording is for realism; getting recordings as close as possible to the source's sound. As this is just a home recording hobby I'm trying to keep costs down, so hoping to buy used. I haven't used/demoed any external ADCs, and right now I'm considering the Lavry AD10 or the Mytek Stereo 192 (kind of leaning towards the Lavry, but that's only based on reading forums).

Any thoughts or recommendations for me?
Chuck, it seems that your monitors might be your weakest link right now, I don't know what model Westones you have, but the Equator D5 I'm familiar with and they do strange things to the midrange. I tried mixing with those and found that I was trying to correct problems that weren't there, particularly on vocal tracks. I use Neumann kh-120 monitors and have much more consistent and translatable mixing experiences.

now back to the convertor discussion already in progress
Old 28th February 2020
  #54
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheath View Post
Chuck, it seems that your monitors might be your weakest link right now, I don't know what model Westones you have, but the Equator D5 I'm familiar with and they do strange things to the midrange. I tried mixing with those and found that I was trying to correct problems that weren't there, particularly on vocal tracks. I use Neumann kh-120 monitors and have much more consistent and translatable mixing experiences.

now back to the convertor discussion already in progress
My post you quoted is going on 3 years old, but yes I agree my monitors were, and still are my weakest link. Thanks for sharing your experience with the Equator D5s. I've been focusing on my record chain, partly due to some used equipment that became available. I ended up getting a used Mytek Stereo192 ADC in 2017 based on input from this thread and am very pleased with it. In 2018 I got a used Gordon Model 5, and last year a used Project S2 Digital DAC / headphone amp. I don't think there is anything now in front of upgrading monitors, as long as I don't start obsessing over guitars, but that’s a different forum.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #55
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Monteiro's Avatar
What about the Merging HORUS ?

I've been following Stefano Amerio recordings for ECM.

Man, what a sound.

(Of course, there are so many things on the table than 'only' the converters).

But it's literally crystal clear, how good the converter is.

Old 4 weeks ago
  #56
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tourtelot's Avatar
Man, if the Merging stuff would do Dante (24/96) I'd be all over it in a minute. And please don't tell me AES67. So far, a non-starter (and I've tried).

D.
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