The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Post your spaced omni setup
Old 7th August 2016
  #1
Lives for gear
 

Post your spaced omni setup

Dear folks, please post details on your spaced omnis setup, like the mics you use, the distance between them when doing small ensemble or large orchestra, whether you sometimes angle them etc.
Pictures and soundsamples would also be very nice.

I ask for this because there are no set rules for AB recording. There are many threads on GS where people argue on the best setup, but the best would be to just collect experiences from members so we can all hear the effect of certain choices for a given set of omnis at various spacing (or angling) and in various acoustics.

There exists a lot of theory on this subject (optimal distance - angling forbidden) but with this setup I think the proof is in the eating/ hearing of the pudding/recording...
Old 7th August 2016
  #2
Lives for gear
 
surflounge's Avatar
80 cm = 31.5 inches
70cm = 27.5 inches
60 cm = 23.6 inches
50 cm = 20 inches
40 cm = 15.7 inches
30cm = 11.8 inches
20cm = 7.8 inches
Old 7th August 2016
  #3
Lives for gear
 
Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge View Post
80 cm = 31.5 inches
70cm = 27.5 inches
60 cm = 23.6 inches
50 cm = 20 inches
40 cm = 15.7 inches
30cm = 11.8 inches
20cm = 7.8 inches
You forgot my favorite:

67cm

But what's with the imperial measurements anyway? I haven't used imperial units for anything real or important in, well, decades. I've got a couple of tape measures I often carry with me, but they're metric only. All my mic position measurements are metric only.
Old 7th August 2016
  #4
Lives for gear
 
boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post

But what's with the imperial measurements anyway?
Roger, you forget that here in the US&A we are still on imperial measurements. I believe we are unique in this.
Old 7th August 2016
  #5
Lives for gear
 
surflounge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
You forgot my favorite:

67cm
67cm for Faulkner Array outside omnis, right?
Old 7th August 2016
  #6
Gear Head
 

Recorded a Piano trio live yesterday. Used a "double" AB 60 cm with a pair of MKH 20 with MKH 40 on top. Piano spots: C480B CK61ULS.



(The picture shows today's setup with an additional pair of CMC5MK21 - spaced 28cm - angled 90 degrees.)

TorbenH
Attached Thumbnails
Post your spaced omni setup-ab1.jpg  
Old 7th August 2016
  #7
Lives for gear
 
voltronic's Avatar
 

Speaking of USA vs. the rest of the world, there seems to be a difference in recommended practice regarding spaced omnis. Of the people I've spoken to, I find that many Americans favor wider spacing (60-120 cm) while Europeans are comfortable with much more narrow spacings. I only recently started going as narrow as 38 cm and in the right situation it can sound very good.
Old 7th August 2016
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
Roger, you forget that here in the US&A we are still on imperial measurements. I believe we are unique in this.
The US has been a metric country since 1875 when the Grant administration signed onto the Convention du Mètre. The US is one of the 17 charter members. We've been metric since the beginning.

The problem is the people don't like change, even change that will improve their lives and make everything easier, and have dragged their feet since 1875 making the US perhaps the last country on the planet clinging to their security blanket of imperial weights and measures. This could easily be changed if the government would just enforce its own laws, and insist that any entity dealing with the US government do so in metric. Like Reagan said he would do, but of course didn't. But he surely did fool the Canadians, didn't he?

So I gave up waiting. I'm metric, like the entire rest of the planet. So who is this "we" you're talking about?
Old 7th August 2016
  #9
Lives for gear
 
voltronic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
The US has been a metric country since 1875 when the Grant administration signed onto the Convention du Mètre. The US is one of the 17 charter members. We've been metric since the beginning.

The problem is the people don't like change, even change that will improve their lives and make everything easier, and have dragged their feet since 1875 making the US perhaps the last country on the planet clinging to their security blanket of imperial weights and measures. This could easily be changed if the government would just enforce its own laws, and insist that any entity dealing with the US government do so in metric. Like Reagan said he would do, but of course didn't. But he surely did fool the Canadians, didn't he?

So I gave up waiting. I'm metric, like the entire rest of the planet. So who is this "we" you're talking about?
I remember the indoctrination attempt when I was in middle school in the form of one of those manual filmstrips with accompanying tape. There was even a corny song in the style of Schoolhouse Rock. I still remember part of it:

The metric system!
The metric system!
<BEEP>
You can measure how far
From your car to the stars...

The metric system!
<BEEP>
Old 7th August 2016
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge View Post
67cm for Faulkner Array outside omnis, right?
That's a spacing that for me marks where "hole in the middle" starts to form. Below that seems to be fine. Above that begins to get somewhat weird for me.

That may be why Faulkner and others use 67cm spacing. IDK. But certainly Faulkner specified 67cm for the outside omnis in his four mic array.
Old 7th August 2016
  #11
Gear Maniac
 
Dr. Jule's Avatar
 

I recorded a singer/songwriter setup with piano and cello. I used AB 35 for the piano, angled outwards because... it sounded narrow but the stereo bar was too short...
5-10 cm more would have been nice I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBHddPgOEyY

Line Audio OM1s btw.
Old 7th August 2016
  #12
Lives for gear
 
surflounge's Avatar
triple-mic setup to avoid "hole in the middle"
Old 7th August 2016
  #13
Lives for gear
 
boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge View Post
triple-mic setup to avoid "hole in the middle"
What're you sportin' there?
Old 7th August 2016
  #14
Lives for gear
 
surflounge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
What're you sportin' there?
Sennheiser MKH 8020 with MZD8000 Neumann KM183D and KM133D
but it wasn't my setup. Credit goes to Beethoven’s Ninth in 5.1 | Mixonline
Old 7th August 2016
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge View Post
triple-mic setup to avoid "hole in the middle"
It should indeed preclude "hole in the middle" syndrome.
Old 8th August 2016
  #16
Lives for gear
 
boojum's Avatar
Simple spaced omnis I run at 38 - 40 cm per Williams. I have gotten pretty good results this way. As was mentioned, the Europeans work their omnis closer while we work them wider in general. I use the European mode. It is a pretty simple rig to have two 4061's perched atop some carbon fiber wands. Not much of a sight obstruction, either.
Old 8th August 2016
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge View Post
Sennheiser MKH 8020 with MZD8000 Neumann KM183D and KM133D...
The article says this was a triple for spot micing basses: "We always mike the basses because the room is a theater in the round, so there is nothing in the bass section to throw low frequencies anywhere you can use them. They have a tendency to go everywhere, and that means there is no real low-frequency texture. Those get a KM 133 D. In fact, we had a triplet in there, a KM 133 D and a KM 183 digital mic, and a Sennheiser MKH 8020 digital mic."

What it doesn't say, is why three omnis are better than one in this duty.
Old 8th August 2016
  #18
Lives for gear
 
voltronic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
Simple spaced omnis I run at 38 - 40 cm per Williams. I have gotten pretty good results this way. As was mentioned, the Europeans work their omnis closer while we work them wider in general. I use the European mode. It is a pretty simple rig to have two 4061's perched atop some carbon fiber wands. Not much of a sight obstruction, either.
Agreed, and I have you and a few others here to thank for encouraging me to pursue all of the things mentioned above.

For the OP, here are a couple pics of my version of this setup. The smaller choir and chamber orchestra is with ~50cm spacing; the large student choir and orchestra ~40cm.
Attached Thumbnails
Post your spaced omni setup-20151211_194655-medium-.jpg   Post your spaced omni setup-20160526_181755-medium-.jpg  
Old 8th August 2016
  #19
Lives for gear
 
voltronic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge View Post
triple-mic setup to avoid "hole in the middle"
Interesting idea of recording with multiple redundant mics for comparison, kind of like what is often done with guitar and bass amps in studios.

One part of that picture seems very odd to me though. I don't understand what good the APE sphere is doing on the KM 133 D if it's being used on a close spot mic, for bass no less. The 133 is already a diffuse-field capsule, and now you're giving it even more on-axis HF reinforcement. For main mics that makes sense. But here, it seems to me that you're just going to be reinforcing upper harmonics and fingerboard noise.

Also, isn't the 8020 getting in the way a bit of the sphere doing its job properly? It is also creating a close reflection point right in front of the 8020 capsule.

Obviously these engineers know a heck of a lot more about recording than I do. What am I missing here?
Old 9th August 2016
  #20
Lives for gear
 
wildplum's Avatar
Viva La Musica during rehearsal at St. Peter's in Redwood City, CA. The main stereo pair was DPA 4006's positioned behind the conductor, about 5 feet above her head, spaced 22 inches (56cm) if I remember correctly. The choir was spot miced Left, Right, Center with DPA 4011's about 11 feet high on three stands. The two solo positions were spot miced with Neumann KM 184's and the piano spot was a Neumann KM 150.
Attached Thumbnails
Post your spaced omni setup-vivalamusicasr.jpg  
Old 9th August 2016
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Thanks for posting examples!

The reason for starting this thread is that after all these years I am often still not sure how wide I will make my spacing and whether I should broaden their angle.

In a large hall with good acoustics like the Concertgebouw I go for at least 200 cm when recording an orchestra, but in smaller venues and with smaller ensembles I am often in doubt. If one has the time to check it on speakers it is not too difficult to find a good spacing, but often time is spare and one has to make a quick guess. I used to go relatively wide with chamber music or small choir (80 cm), then came a periode with smaller spacing (35 cm), but nowadays I am often somewhere in between. I will post some examples myself in the coming days.
Meanwhile I love to hear and see the choices that others make.
Old 9th August 2016
  #22
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas_G View Post
The reason for starting this thread is that after all these years I am often still not sure how wide I will make my spacing and whether I should broaden their angle.
I think it always has to be done each time by listening, to the ensemble, with the music, in the acoustic, you cannot make any rules.
Old 9th August 2016
  #23
I agree if the reason for the recording is making a musical production. But some recordings require the scientific approach.
Old 10th August 2016
  #24
RPC
Gear Addict
I generally start around 60cm spacing, both mikes facing forward , then adjust to taste. I tend to use omnis that have good rear response, though; if your mikes roll off significantly in the rear you may want to experiment with splaying out.
Old 13th August 2016
  #25
Gear Maniac
 

Great thread! Sneaking in, sitting in the last row and shut my mouth. Thanks all for sharing some wisdom here.
Old 13th August 2016
  #26
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
I think it always has to be done each time by listening, to the ensemble, with the music, in the acoustic, you cannot make any rules.
Yes David, you are absolutely right, but sometimes you don't have the time to do that. Also listening on cans gives a different impression from listening on speakers when judging spacing. That's why I like to see and hear what others do with diffent mics and ensembles. I will post some myself but deadlines prevented me from doing and tomorrow I will be off to Italy. I will post when I am back. In the meantime I will enjoy the postings of others...
Old 13th August 2016
  #27
Lives for gear
 
hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Here are some .AIFF files from a job about 7 years ago. I still have, and use, these two pairs regularly (Gefell M296 and DPA4061) and am still varying my omni spacings depending on the room and setup. M296s at 40-60cm are usually present regardless of other mics in play. The comments in the discussion explain why I did the comparison as I chose to do it. Mic amps were D.A.V. into an Ensemble FW.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remo...1-comparo.html

HB
Old 15th August 2016
  #28
Lives for gear
 
just.sounds's Avatar
Depending on distance to sound source my omni pair for direct sound will be between 20 and 40cm where 32 to 36 is most used. This gives nice stereo placement for direct sound. But in the low frequencies it lacks seperation so depending on low frewuency content i will add an extra pair wich will be about 60/70 for a string quartet and 2 2,5m for full on orchestra. This will give you a more exiting picture for the low frequencies. The 60/70cm pair has an additional benefit of bringing the musicians in the middle of the stereo image a bit closer and the left and right a bit further back. Wich compensates a bit for the way they like to sit. (only when in combination with the 20/30cm pair)
Old 21st February 2020
  #29
Lives for gear
 

i have a bit a different take: i shoot the room to get its fr and then decide on spacing of omni mains for maximum phase offset between them, to occur at the frequency which i want to dampen without using a filter - i guess one might call this some sort of 'scientific approach'...
Old 21st February 2020
  #30
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Thumbs up

For solo piano I use a 20cm spacing with a pair of Gefell M221 omnis or Sennheiser MKH 20 toed slightly out.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump