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Tony Faulkner tries out some new Rode prototypes
Old 1st March 2019
  #181
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Rode are still trying to get production QC into their Opal Event LS...
Its been 3 yrs al least.
Old 1st March 2019
  #182
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Heimbecker View Post
If I may quote from the book of Byrne... "st, st, st still waiting..."
I think Tony got the very first one the other day.

I saw him a couple of days ago but, unfortunately, forgot to ask.
Old 1st March 2019
  #183
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Engineer who knows how to use M50 in a tree setup probably already has them, or has access to them when there is a need. The engineer who does not have access to the real thing can do the job with so many other alternatives these days I wonder how many of those TFM50 can Rode end up selling? Frankly, how many remote guys here are doing big orchestra gigs day in and day out for living? Five? Ten? Say, twenty, that will bring the demand to 60 units. As a manufacture, will you open up a product line knowing the potential sales number might be under 100? M50 is such a specialized product it is a one trick pony. It will sound horrible if you try to use it for vocal or other close micing application. Rode is there to make money, lots of money. It is not their job to make few of the remote guys happy playing with some new toys.
Old 1st March 2019
  #184
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Greg Heimbecker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
Frankly, how many remote guys here are doing big orchestra gigs day in and day out for living? Five? Ten? Say, twenty, that will bring the demand to 60 units. As a manufacture, will you open up a product line knowing the potential sales number might be under 100? M50 is such a specialized product it is a one trick pony.
There also happen to be hundreds of university classical music programs worldwide many with varying degrees of recording instruction going on. I doubt Røde would have spent the R & D money if they didn't think they could sell some mics... I do 80-100 classical location gigs a year and we're about to open a new 600+ seat hall which will be seeing an exhaustive set of test recordings next year as we suss out what our new room is up to and what techniques suit our various ensembles within it. We also have a growing film scoring program which would no doubt benefit from having a set of 50ish mics about.
Old 1st March 2019
  #185
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[QUOTE=Greg Heimbecker;13840553]There also happen to be hundreds of university classical music programs worldwide many with varying degrees of recording instruction going on. I doubt Røde would have spent the R & D money if they didn't think they could sell some mics... I do 80-100 classical location gigs a year and we're about to open a new 600+ seat hall which will be seeing an exhaustive set of test recordings next year as we suss out what our new room is up to and what techniques suit our various ensembles within it. We also have a growing film scoring program which would no doubt benefit from having a set of 50ish mics about.[/QUOTE

So you will be one of the twenty people who would buy three of TFM50. Will you still buy them if they cost $2000 each?
Old 1st March 2019
  #186
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Don't forget that there are many, 'hobby recordists', often with deep pockets (alas not me!), who will want these mics just to be able to add a real Decca tree to their trophy collection. And I would think that film scoring stages, where Decca trees are still frequently used, will also account for quite a few. What's old is new has frequently worked in marketing. Bring them on Rode! I may yet win the lottery and order a pair or a trio.

Last edited by jimjazzdad; 2nd March 2019 at 12:16 PM..
Old 2nd March 2019
  #187
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JCBigler's Avatar
Let’s not forget that they also have announced the NT-49 multi pattern valve tube mic, the NT-RV valve ribbion mic, and the version 2 or the NT5s, which we are still waiting for all of them to make it to market as well. All of those mics will ostensibly see amich wider adoption and have a wider field of usage than the TFM-50.
Old 2nd March 2019
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
Let’s not forget that they also have announced the NT-49 multi pattern valve tube mic, the NT-RV valve ribbion mic, and the version 2 or the NT5s, which we are still waiting for all of them to make it to market as well. All of those mics will ostensibly see amich wider adoption and have a wider field of usage than the TFM-50.
Good point....a mature company with a diverse product portfolio would have factored in the differential take-up (ie sales)of their entire range over time.

Thus strong selling items (I'm guessing the mini-shotgun I see perched on every second domestic HD camcorder or dslr, with 'Rode' brashly screen-printed on the windsock, for example) probably outsells all their 'studio mics' these days...) can offset the R&D development and production costs of the new valve mics mentioned here, as likely to become niche sellers for them.

Don't fret about Rode's volume sales of TFM50's Da Hong....they have done their estimates and will go ahead with sales, even if you preferred they didn't. Their global sales of SmartLav mics will already have offset any losses the new mic might incur....
Old 2nd March 2019
  #189
Regarding the Decca Tree and speaking as an orchestral musician for nearly 30 years, and as one who has taken part in recordings where the Decca Tree was in use, I'm not sure that many orchestral recordings ever capture faithfully the orchestra - whichever mic techniques are used.

For chamber music and solo instruments then recordings can be 99% faithful - but most orchestral recordings rarely achieve much more than 50-80% in my opinion. I have just literally heard a commentator on BBC Radio 3 saying how good a new recording of Sibelius Symphonies are, when I thought how inaccurate and unreal the recordings sounded, and I was listening on good equipment - hi fi amp and large speakers.

Spot miking in orchestras can work, but then it is often the final musical balance which has been decided by the engineers/producers, that we hear. I suppose of course that there are very few conductors who have better ideas, but that's life.
Old 2nd March 2019
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
Regarding the Decca Tree and speaking as an orchestral musician for nearly 30 years, and as one who has taken part in recordings where the Decca Tree was in use, I'm not sure that many orchestral recordings ever capture faithfully the orchestra - whichever mic techniques are used.

For chamber music and solo instruments then recordings can be 99% faithful - but most orchestral recordings rarely achieve much more than 50-80% in my opinion. I have just literally heard a commentator on BBC Radio 3 saying how good a new recording of Sibelius Symphonies are, when I thought how inaccurate and unreal the recordings sounded, and I was listening on good equipment - hi fi amp and large speakers.

Spot miking in orchestras can work, but then it is often the final musical balance which has been decided by the engineers/producers, that we hear. I suppose of course that there are very few conductors who have better ideas, but that's life.
That's an interesting perspective, I wonder if your experience is typical of orchestral players generally ? While you're all (incl. conductors) bound by the score, the translation of the entirety of the recording as a final mix is entrusted to the producers and engineers. To extend my query, when you attend a concert as audience member in a good/typical seat....do you get the same feeling of being shortchanged ?

In other words, are you more reflecting the disparity between the playing experience vs the audience or CD listening experience ? I dare say a great many here might counter : 'but in the orchestra you're surrounded by cellos/ wood winds/percussion (insert your instrument group here !)...how can you ever claim to hear an orchestral balance from your playing seat....only the conductor ever gets that privileged perspective'

I wonder if there's not some other missing component at play here: ambience, air, space, dynamics, balance which all orchestral players are naturally immersed in while playing...which are suddenly sucked out or diminished when the recording is replayed on domestic replay gear ?

It could come down to the needs of mastering to squeeze the final dynamics into an envelope/package that is playable across all media....I suspect that could be the bottleneck which shortchanges the orchestral playing experience so terminally (but still, only players like yourself will experience it so keenly) ???
Old 2nd March 2019
  #191
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
So you will be one of the twenty people who would buy three of TFM50. Will you still buy them if they cost $2000 each?
$ 2,000 is not a high price for a high quality mic.

Though if you are slinging above an audience I would probably use a Gefell M221 or Neumann KM133, both of which have metal diaphragms and an APE ball - as these are lighter - it's just that they don't have the large housing covering the ball that the M50 and its "clones" have.

And Gefell will "pair" match 3 microphones for use in a decca tree.
Old 2nd March 2019
  #192
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fred2bern's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
$ 2,000 is not a high price for a high quality mic.

Though if you are slinging above an audience I would probably use a Gefell M221 or Neumann KM133, both of which have metal diaphragms and an APE ball - as these are lighter - it's just that they don't have the large housing covering the ball that the M50 and its "clones" have.

And Gefell will "pair" match 3 microphones for use in a decca tree.
M50, M150 and "clones" are tube microphones, it's more than the housing covering difference with a KM133 or a Gefell M221...
Old 2nd March 2019
  #193
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
That's an interesting perspective, I wonder if your experience is typical of orchestral players generally ? While you're all (incl. conductors) bound by the score, the translation of the entirety of the recording as a final mix is entrusted to the producers and engineers. To extend my query, when you attend a concert as audience member in a good/typical seat....do you get the same feeling of being shortchanged ?
I think it is probably typical. As an audience member in the concert hall I usually feel that the result is better than a recoding, often a lot better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
In other words, are you more reflecting the disparity between the playing experience vs the audience or CD listening experience ? I dare say a great many here might counter : 'but in the orchestra you're surrounded by cellos/ wood winds/percussion (insert your instrument group here !)...how can you ever claim to hear an orchestral balance from your playing seat....only the conductor ever gets that privileged perspective'
I expect it to sound different as I'm not sitting in the middle or as part of a string section, with woodwinds and brass behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I wonder if there's not some other missing component at play here: ambience, air, space, dynamics, balance which all orchestral players are naturally immersed in while playing...which are suddenly sucked out or diminished when the recording is replayed on domestic replay gear ?
Recordings will always sound different - sometimes nearly as good, at other times very different and not nearly as good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
It could come down to the needs of mastering to squeeze the final dynamics into an envelope/package that is playable across all media....I suspect that could be the bottleneck which shortchanges the orchestral playing experience so terminally (but still, only players like yourself will experience it so keenly) ???
I feel that "mastering" is often the final process that can often, but not always, spoil the sound and even the balance. Too much processing can lead to a muddy sound and incoherent balances with instruments being covered or obliterated. I do think that simple recording and sensitive mixing will in the end leave the recording to be more natural, and also the high value put on a stereo image can mess things up quite badly. Mono recordings can be excellent, but I realise that mono is generally unacceptable these days and it has to be stereo and digital. (Not that I've anything against digital sound, it can be superb).
Old 2nd March 2019
  #194
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred2bern View Post
M50, M150 and "clones" are tube microphones, it's more than the housing covering difference with a KM133 or a Gefell M221...
Agreed - though valves (vacuum tubes) were the only option when the M50 was designed.

Would Georg Neumann still have used valves (vacuum tubes) if he were designing such s mic. today?, or would he have used an FET? Neumann was always striving for the best and did not deliberately make “coloured” mics - even though many people like the colour that a valve or transformer brings.
Old 2nd March 2019
  #195
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fred2bern's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Agreed - though valves (vacuum tubes) were the only option when the M50 was designed.

Would Georg Neumann still have used valves (vacuum tubes) if he were designing such s mic. today?, or would he have used an FET? Neumann was always striving for the best and did not deliberately make “coloured” mics - even though many people like the colour that a valve or transformer brings.
I don't know if there is an answer to your question, but Neumann still produces the M150 today and it is possible to order a matched pair or trio. They are hand made on request.
I think all these microphones (TLM50, M50, M150 and maybe some clones) are among the top of the microphones you can use for classical music recording when you are in the right room to use these tools...

Geffel with sphere, Schoeps with sphere etc. gives the idea to the user he uses... a Neumann! (I'm joking).

The Rode version looks to me like another clone. Maybe it will sound fantastic, but we still have to wait to hear it, not from a commercial but from people using it every day.
Old 2nd March 2019
  #196
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decca for stereo? i dunno...

i dislike decca as much as any other spaced surround technique when mixed down to stereo - imo decca is a much more interesting contender for 3.1 and beyond, regardless of mics being used...
Old 2nd March 2019
  #197
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred2bern View Post
Geffel with sphere, Schoeps with sphere etc. gives the idea to the user he uses... a Neumann! (I'm joking).
With Gefell he *is* using a Neumann - as Gefell is still owned by Georg Neumann KG - Neumann’s original company that he started in 1928.
Old 2nd March 2019
  #198
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fred2bern's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
With Gefell he *is* using a Neumann - as Gefell is still owned by Georg Neumann KG - Neumann’s original company that he started in 1928.
It was a joke, as I wrote, and I think there is no need to start again this subject you already had on a lot of threads...
Humor.
Old 2nd March 2019
  #199
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred2bern View Post
It was a joke, as I wrote, and I think there is no need to start again this subject you already had on a lot of threads...
Humor.
I *did* put a winky
Old 2nd March 2019
  #200
Old 2nd March 2019
  #201
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsound View Post
Dude. You got my hopes up there. I thought you were posting a link to the Rode website with the new mics on it. Not to the other thread that we all have been reading and participating in already.
Old 2nd March 2019
  #202
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johnsound's Avatar
Just pointing it out to some of those who maybe haven't been reading the other thread...

Sorry for raising your hopes,

John
Old 3rd March 2019
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
Regarding the Decca Tree and speaking as an orchestral musician for nearly 30 years, and as one who has taken part in recordings where the Decca Tree was in use, I'm not sure that many orchestral recordings ever capture faithfully the orchestra - whichever mic techniques are used.

For chamber music and solo instruments then recordings can be 99% faithful - but most orchestral recordings rarely achieve much more than 50-80% in my opinion. I have just literally heard a commentator on BBC Radio 3 saying how good a new recording of Sibelius Symphonies are, when I thought how inaccurate and unreal the recordings sounded, and I was listening on good equipment - hi fi amp and large speakers.

Spot miking in orchestras can work, but then it is often the final musical balance which has been decided by the engineers/producers, that we hear. I suppose of course that there are very few conductors who have better ideas, but that's life.

Andre Previn RIP said no performance is as good as the score
This also applies to the recording unfortunately.
Andre 's first Hollywood gig was the music for a Lassie movie
He had to fill the spaces between Lassie barking.......

Last edited by Rolo 46; 3rd March 2019 at 12:45 AM..
Old 3rd March 2019
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
Regarding the Decca Tree and speaking as an orchestral musician for nearly 30 years, and as one who has taken part in recordings where the Decca Tree was in use, I'm not sure that many orchestral recordings ever capture faithfully the orchestra - whichever mic techniques are used.
Agreed, orchestral works in general should not be recorded. It should be mandatory live listening only. Squeezing an orchestra through a couple of tiny boxes or headphones is nuts.

Chamber music, now that's another story.
Old 3rd March 2019
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Agreed, orchestral works in general should not be recorded. It should be mandatory live listening only. Squeezing an orchestra through a couple of tiny boxes or headphones is nuts.

Chamber music, now that's another story.
With orchestral accompanied by video, the latter can partially offset (or at enhance) against the losses in scale and heft. Perhaps, at least for home speaker playback, there could be minimal hardware specification....like the THX or Dolby Surround certification for movie theatres.

Can't see it happening now, but it could have been an attempt at some restorative justice in reclaiming the lost balance.....that's even assuming it's been encoded upon the source material in the first place ?
Old 3rd March 2019
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Agreed, orchestral works in general should not be recorded. It should be mandatory live listening only. Squeezing an orchestra through a couple of tiny boxes or headphones is nuts.

Chamber music, now that's another story.
I hope no consumers, producers or executives of record companies are reading this...

Trying to capture the full orchestra in a recording and reproducing it successfully on loudspeakers is quite a challenge, I admit, but it is also very rewarding when one (at least partially) succeeds.
Old 3rd March 2019
  #207
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Here's some interesting background reading on the older mics: http://recordinghacks.com/pdf/neuman..._schneider.pdf
Old 3rd March 2019
  #208
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Back to Andre
He was playing Jazz Piano at the age of 16 at a Hollywood party
Ava Gardner (23) sat on his piano stool and asked him to take her home
He thought she wanted a Taxi!
A few years later he met her again and asked her this time
She told him to Fxuck Off....
Old 9th March 2019
  #209
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johnsound's Avatar
Re: The Faulkner Mic.

I have seen it and I have held it. It is a thing of dark beauty with a gold and crystal heart.

Smitten.
Old 9th March 2019
  #210
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsound View Post
Re: The Faulkner Mic.

I have seen it and I have held it. It is a thing of dark beauty with a gold and crystal heart.

Smitten.
Pics or it didn't happen.
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